BAnds? Are you good enough? :)

Thomas from Presence

BAND WARS is a monster battle of the bands competition offering one lucky group the chance to walk off with over €4000 in prizes. A full back line care of Instrumental: a Marshall Guitar Amp, a Carlsboro 80 watt Bass Amp and a Sonor 5 Piece 2001 Drum kit. Two days recording time in Track Mix Recording Studios and if that wasn’t enough 100 professionally pressed C.D.’s courtesy of Banned Productions. The winner will also have their name engraved on the Band Wars trophy which will be permanently displayed at Instrumental. There are four runner up prizes to be won including recording time and 200 C.D.’s, Beer and Gigsmart Cards.

TELL ME MORE!
The Competition will be run throughout the month of April at Isaac Butts’s and other Dublin city-centre venues to be confirmed. 35 bands ONLY will battle it out to the Grand Final (five bands). The competition has been structured to give all styles of music a place in the final (I.e. Rock, Alternative Metal etc.). Judges will decide the winning bands using criteria to be listed on www.gigsmartireland.com so if you don’t have a huge following you won’t be relying on crowd votes. Back line will be provided throughout the competition (one guitar amp, one bass amp and a drum kit).

HOW TO ENTER:
Simply fill out an entry form and return it to Instrumental, Bachelors Walk, Dublin 1 with an entrance fee of €90 (IR£75).

Remember the Competition is open to 35 bands only and FIVE bands win prizes, so if your not in….
CLOSING DATE Saturday, 14th April



ENTRY FORMS AVAILABLE IN INSTRUMENTAL OR OFF THE GIGSMART SITE SHORTLY

:mad:

Dr. Loon

Is this competition only open to bands involved in the gigsmart thing? Or anyone?

pixe

I belive that it is open to anyone.....

Fecken nice prizes........mmmmmmmmm

Thomas from Presence

ITS OPEN TO ONE AND ALL!!!!!!!!

pixe

Traslated I belive that thats means it's open to everyone!

soma

Quite possibly the smartest piece of music industry advice I was ever given was in regard to band competitions. "If it's free to enter, go for it, if there's an entrance fee, it's fixed and it's a money making scam".

I know all about "band wars" - I know that it's fixed cos I know a band who were told from the outset they were going to win. The only truly honest band competition is the heineken green energy one, is that even running this year? heard feck-all about it.

kirn

fixed eh? thats a heavy accusation. what makes you so sure? they might need the money to cover their backs regarding the prizes.

of course they might be greedy ****ers trying to fleece us but y'know? maybe not.

thats left a sour taste now, i have to say... it would make you think twice about entering....:mad:

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by soma
Quite possibly the smartest piece of music industry advice I was ever given was in regard to band competitions. "If it's free to enter, go for it, if there's an entrance fee, it's fixed and it's a money making scam".

I know all about "band wars" - I know that it's fixed cos I know a band who were told from the outset they were going to win. The only truly honest band competition is the heineken green energy one, is that even running this year? heard feck-all about it.

I agree... I reckon they're generally fixed as well.

Trev M

Clearly that was the intent of the post,

The contest will be fair and transparent, gigsmart was approached to run the gig becuase anyone who bothered to find out about the organisation will tell you that we're not "on the make" and have done a fair bit to counter act the pay to play scene in Dublin. The comp appealed to us because it is a great opportunity for a band to get some great prizes that would benefit any band on the scene. As you rightly assert the charge is put in place to cover the cost of the prizes, if anyone has a problem with that don't enter the competition, but as its limited to 35 bands I think ...the odds are fairly good, unfortunatley my band cannot enter as I am the founder of gigsmart and would be seen to have an unfair advantage by people such as Soma...this of course would be true.

Anyway , for those of you with any confidence in Gigsmart , our track record and efforts should speak for themselves, I think its a good comp, with good prizes.

I have forwarded this allegation to the co sponsors of the gig and would ask the accuser to make themselves known to me by e mail if they wish to discuss this further or make themselves known.

All the best - Trev

Thomas from Presence

I doubt Soma would like to make himself known Trev because what he has put down amounts to slander and with other more trigger happy money making orgainisations Soma could find her/himself in court.

However, having been in a band who entered competitions before I know that certain ones have a bad reputation (in one instance I saw evidence of a rather high profile one being a little bit astray).

I would like Soma to PM me the name of the band who was told to win or forever hold her/his peace. There is not one individual who has the power to call the winner. It is either a lie to say that a band was told to win or a lie related to the band that they are going to win.

Also I would also like to invite Soma and/or Dr. Loon to judge one of the heats, semis or observe the judging of the final with me and the other judges to see how fair this competition is or forever hold their peace.

Any other suggestions to independently verify the results of this competition are welcome.

The entrance fee pays for the prizes. The money at the door goes to gigsmart which is a non-profit organisation that uses its meagre funds to put on gigs and help bands (with out any credit or monetary gain from bands, media or audience, sniff!). (see next post).

Thomas from Presence

About Gigsmart:

Gigsmart is a none profit organisation devoted to rekindling the live music scene in Ireland. It is run for musicians by musicians.

Gigsmart has run successful regular gigs all over Dublin in Isaac Butts,
Eamon Dorans, Mono, The Sidewalk Café and a weekly unplugged session in The International. Next month sees the launch of its monthly Saturday night Temple Bar Music centre nights. Our compilation C.D. of our first artists will sell its 200th copy at this gig.

Gigsmart has set up discounts for its cardholders with instrument shops,
studios, photographers and duplication companies.

Gigsmart’s web page hosts mini sites for all its cardholders with mp3’s,
pictures and information, the site has had 15,000 hits since its launch in
December with each band mini-site getting at least 500 hits.

Gigsmart has set up relations with drinks companies in order to have drinks promotions for its gigs. This combined with the organisations advertising power help make our gigs competitive and accessible to a wider audience than bands can achieve on their own.

Dr. Loon

Originally posted by Thomas from Presence

However, having been in a band who entered competitions before I know that certain ones have a bad reputation (in one instance I saw evidence of a rather high profile one being a little bit astray).

Also I would also like to invite Soma and/or Dr. Loon to judge one of the heats, semis or observe the judging of the final with me and the other judges to see how fair this competition is or forever hold their peace.

Any other suggestions to independently verify the results of this competition are welcome.

Sorry lads, you mistook me. I didn't realise this was run by Gigsmart! Trev, I just replied to your PM.
I agree that some of these competitions are fixed, sure we've won a competition, and I'm still not sure if it was fixed or not!!

Anyway, I reckon if it's run by Gigsmart, I'd have alot more faith in it than most competitions, so Thomas I think I'll turn down your offer to judge, as we're going to try and enter the competition ourselves!

Thomas from Presence

BAND WARS ENTRY FORMS NOW ON THE WEB!
www.gigsmartireland.com/bandwars.htm

Trev M

Dr. Loon,
Thanks for the clarification of your position on this , and thanks for your PM and words of encouragement. I would just like to point out to anyone who may read this that gigsmart is not solely run by myself or by Tom, we meet regularly and discuss all our activities with the bands themselves before making any decisions, Some advice holds more water purely on the basis that some bands and musicians participate more so as such we are fairly democratic in our operation and completely transparent and open in our dealings...for example the contract with the music centre was actually posted on our website....it doesn't come any more transparent than that !!

All the best ,
Look forward to the aprticipation of some of the great bands out there including the Jive Priniciple...

Trev M

K!LL!@N

I think that €90 is a bit ridiculous as an entry fee for a competition. A competition where you have 35/1 odds of winning. Some people might think they are pretty good odds. But that's assuming that the judges aren't going to be biased in any way. Doesn't really matter how good your band is, if the judges don't like you that's all that counts. Personally i'd rather go and bet the €90 with a bookie. At least you know it'll be a fair bet. A 35/1 bet would give you €3150 and your €90 back.

And another thing, 35 bands @ €90 doesn't even cover the cost of the equipment that's being offered as a prize. I'm not even taking into account the recording time etc. And that's only for first place. The 4 runners up get recording time and 200 cd's ( each or is it 200 four ways? ). So what's the deal? I know you're a NON profit organisation, but seems to me you're going to be running at a loss on this one.

I have a couple more question. How many bands have signed up for this so far? And will it still go ahead if only 10 bands enter?

Killian

hmmwhat?

In defence of this.
In my experience Gigsmart is an honest and inventive way of getting Irish bands playing gigs and getting noticed, which is more than I can say for other organisations which take advantage of musicians and music lovers.
As people the organisers of Band Wars are just as honest. They have helped my band out in the past and will continue to do so in the future.
I do understand how people could be suspicious but you can trust Tom and Trev and trust gigsmart.
God I'm getting serious...
All you have to do is come to one of the gigs (preferably the music centre on sat13!) and talk to these people if you don't trust them.
Jesus, I could also list the people you should stay the hell away from too if you like!!!

polarbelly

Originally posted by K!LL!@N
[And another thing, 35 bands @ €90 doesn't even cover the cost of the equipment that's being offered as a prize. I'm not even taking into account the recording time etc. And that's only for first place. The 4 runners up get recording time and 200 cd's ( each or is it 200 four ways? ). So what's the deal? I know you're a NON profit organisation, but seems to me you're going to be running at a loss on this one.



Killian [/B]

killian,

i've no doubt that what you're forgetting here when you're adding up your costs is the sponsorship from the likes of instrumental music, banned productions, and nor east beers...

they will be giving something towards this i would imagine

despite the fact that i have a link to gigsmart in my signature i dont know the ins and outs of the competition.... however the main lads tom and trev are always more than obliging... so if you want to know anyhting bout the competition send a private message to tom and he'll look after your queries i've no doubt

Thomas from Presence

I forgot to mention runner up prizes in the original post.

There will be a second prize of a day in the studio and a quantity of cds and all the finalists will get a tray of beer from www.noreastbeers.ie and a gigsmart card. The bands will have played 3 weel advertised gigs to get this far too.



So you have a 1 in 7 chance of winning something worth more than the entry fee!

The gigsmart card:


The Gigsmart card will entitle you to the following:
· A discount off musical equipment in Instrumental of Bachelors Walk.
· A heavily reduced rate off Cosmic Studios.
· Page on the Gigsmart Website. The average individual band page has received approx 500-1000 hits since December. How does this compare to your own site?!
· Only cardholders will be put on the compilation CDs. Compilation CDs are sent to A&R men, promoters, and the press and radio stations as well has being distributed amongst the general public in high volumes.
· First offer on Gigsmart gigs organised in Whelan’s, Mono and Temple Bar Music Centre
· Active promotion of cardholders. The co-ordinators frequently arrange support slot for bands with larger bands and high profile gigs offered to out members. Cardholders will be given preference in the selecting of suitable acts.
· Discount in Walton’s World of Music, Georges Street.
· Future benefits as they become available

pixe

Eh personally I would'nt think that ninty euro's is all that much.

Think of it, thats what, about seventy five pounds....I've paid more than that to play a gig yet alone be in a completion!


As you pointed out Gigsmart won't make any money out of your calculations, so surely they should be charging more to cover they're costs.....???

joss

It seems to me that, having spent €90, whoever gets knocked out in the first round will feel a little hard done by.
I think it pretty steep to play in a Battle Of The Bands competition.
Why not just have smaller prizes?
If the studios etc. aren't providing the prizes FOC, why give them free advertising?

BTW, Killian, you're missing out on money from the doors at gigs in your calculations.

kirn

is it too late for this?

will bands involved with gigsmart get precedence?

kirn

actually are we expected to pay the entry fee before we know if we've been chosen?
what if we're not?
do we get the money back?

Trev M

Hi Joss ,
Many thanks for your input, at this point I would like to point out that we are not solely about this copmpetition this is one of many activities on going, just wanted to make people aware of that.

Regarding the €90 for the comp and the prize situation , the prizes have to be worthwhile and are there to ensure that they are of Practical benefit to the overall winner, a new backline and recording and dup can make a huge contribution to a bands success on the local scene thats why the prizes are the way they are.

Joss do you play in a band ??

Did you know that some bands are paying as much as €120 Euro to play midweek in some venues...and that at times different bands are charged different rates for the same gig and get nothing out of it??? This is a root issue for us the whole pay for play is something we are fighting against as its choking the scene

The charge for the competition in my view is well justified and not hypocritical, we will continue to organise other gigs.
Depending on band performance in the comp it could be a very very worthwhile venture....the interest and promo for the gigs will be good and will elevate any of the bands profile gauranteed....a point to note however there are a limited entries as already pointed out.
Gigsmart benefit in terms of profile too and is a means for more audiences to become familiar with our organisation and goals.

I have been on these boards for some time asking for peoples participation on an on going basis. I do not wish to play the martyr here but as criticisms have come and gone very little in the way of help has come along and the people with a true belief that the scene is worth developoing have stuck it out to make gigsmart grow(and other organisations thumped , fmc Turner etc)....that's what this competition is for us, that's what the TBMC gig is for us and we will continue to work hard to find opportunities that will highlight Gigsmart and our genuine interest in helping bands to help themselves. I myself am in a band we have played two gigsmart gigs......the very first one and one two months or so ago and will play the music centre on the 13th , my interest is self motivated too, I want to exist in a better scene and gigsmart is a vehicle towards that along with many other worthwhile organisations that are trying to do the same....we may not get it perfect but we will always make room for anyone who thinks they have something to ad...if that person is you then please come along to a meeting or give one of us a call.


All the best,
Trev

joss

Thanks Trev.
I didn't mean to be coming down on your organisation, it seems to be a wholly good thing. I too think that pay-to-play is always wrong. I just feel that the entry fee is steep. Surely people who can afford to gamble €90 on this competition have money to spend, and don't need the prizes as much as a band that don't have much money. But... what do I know.
The prizes are good, though.

Thomas from Presence

For there to be winners there must be losers! The gigs will be quality ones (unlike other competitions) with the line ups aesthetically matched and a drinks promo in Isaac Butts. €120 gigs don't give you that! The heats will be well publicised as gigs and attendance should be high. I met loads of bands through playing competitions and when Presence made the final of Band Wars '98 (I wasn't involved with band wars at that stage!) it was a big boost for us and we got loads of supports and a few additional followers too.


Gigsmart bands will not get any sort of preference!

P.S. €90 divided by 5 band members = €18 per person

Thomas from Presence

As far as I know theres still places. Here's an application form:
http://www.gigsmartireland.com/bandwars_app.htm

K!LL!@N

Originally posted by joss
It seems to me that, having spent €90, whoever gets knocked out in the first round will feel a little hard done by.
I think it pretty steep to play in a Battle Of The Bands competition.
Why not just have smaller prizes?
If the studios etc. aren't providing the prizes FOC, why give them free advertising?

BTW, Killian, you're missing out on money from the doors at gigs in your calculations.

That's exactly my point. The entry fee is too high for such a competition. You pay €90 and get knocked out in the first round. Ok, it's a competition so someone's gotta lose but you've just paid €90 for the privilege of playing 2/3/4 songs? Playing a couple of songs in the heat of a competition isn't going to get you great exposure, let's be real about it.

And Joss has a great point about sponsorship, if this is going to be so highly publicised why aren't the studio's etc. giving away the stuff for free?

I have to make a point about bands playing mid-week gigs etc. Ok, a band pays €120 for the venue but they more than likely charge people to get in, so they at least make some of the money back. Let's say they charge €3 ( not even the price of a pint ), even if only 20 people came to watch the gig, they'd have made back €60. They'd have played for as long as they liked, it would only have cost them €60 and i'm sure they'd feel a lot more satisfied than if they'd played a couple of songs in a competition and been sent packing at the end of it. Ok, you could say i've taken a bit of a simplistic view of things. But let's say you get another band involved. So we've got two bands splitting the cost of putting this gig on. Now each band pays even less. Both still get to play a decent set and unless they play badly they are both gonna be pretty happy at the end of it. I'm sure between all the members of the bands they could get a pretty decent crowd ( even if this crowd consists of mates ), that would be willing to pay the price of a pint to go see them. Then you'd have anyone else that happened to come along.

I'm not saying what you're doing is bad and that you shouldn't be doing it, but i hope you see my point. Bands that need new equipment etc, generally don't go around wasting money. I think €90 to enter a competition would be a waste.

And my question earlier still hasn't been answered. How many bands do you need for everything to go ahead? Do you need the full 35? I'd be interested to hear whether you actually get 35 bands to participate.

Killian

K!LL!@N

Ok, i've just been taking a bit of a closer look at things and i don't know whether to laugh or cry at what i read on the entry form. Each band is supposed to tick the appropriate box concerning the band's style. That seems fair enough, or so you'd think. It seems there's a wide and varied musical taste at gigsmart cos we've a whole 3 categories to choose from:

Rock (U2, Fleetwood Mac, Beatles etc.)
Indie (Nirvana, Oasis, Blur, etc.)
Heavy Rock (metallica, Korn etc)

It seems to me that the judging is going to be biased right from the off. What if a band doesn't feel they belong in any of these categories? Should they just not bother entering?

Maybe it's time we heard what the judging criteria will be?

Killian

atonal

wow all this moaning and groaning and analyzing the relative chances of winning! What ever happened for competition for the sake of it, just to get out there and prove you're the goddamn best!

Thomas from Presence

In fairness Killian your becoming a bit of an annoying little tart! I'll humour you anyway.

If you think €90 is too much then don't enter! Simple as that! We seem to have our entries filling up quiet nicely any how. The judging criteria will be up soon on www.gigsmartireland.com

It is gigsmart policy to aesthetically match line ups for gigs so one bands crowd will appreciate the other bands.

Even if a band doesn't win they win in other ways. Gigsmart gets money therefore bands get a better scene therefore everyone wins!

Thomas from Presence

We need 35 bands and we shall have 35 bands.

For no other reason I would like to make the following irrelevant points:

1. The Amstrad 6128+ whoops the ass of ANY form of Commodore 64.

2. Romantica is a yukky Dessert. Vienneta or that new Chocolate selections are far better

3. Estel rock

4. Dutch Gold is the king of cheap beers

5. UCD is a far better college for computer college for computer programming (TCD doesn't even teach its philosophy students Aristotle, using this logic they probably teach computer programming on Commodore 64's using good 'aul Basic.

6. Erdinger is the king of beers (and should be on promotion at the band wars gigs)

7. The mongolian barbeque is nicer than Luigi Malones by far