Euros and cents

Yoda

What a mixed pleasure to return to this topic. Let's begin by answering the last post from May 2002.

Originally posted by smccarrick
Euro and cent, are not by any means alone in usage by denoted similiarly for both a singular and plural in the English language. This is not "the creation of a fake plural for the English language", indeed, given that English is concoction of several different languages, common words today owing as much to Norse as to Latin, the suggestion does not bear even spending time on.

I suspect that I know quite a lot about the history of the English language, having begun with Old English when I was 14 or so, having read Middle English at university, and so on. And I know quite a lot about the grammar of English and other European languages. So let's see what you have to say.

Plurals have in English, over the years, been denoted with up to 6 different endings, three of which are still in common use- the use of "s" (or -es after an -sh spelling), the weak plurals which associate with germanic pluralism "en" (examples of which include children, brethren, oxen) and of course remnants of old English which still lurk in plurals such as men, women, feet, geese, teeth.

That process is not productive, however. New words introduced to the language do not partake of vowel alternation. Moose, when borrowed into English from Narragansett -- first attested in 1613 -- was not pluralized as meese. Rather, it took the zero-plural of deer not because Old English neuter plurals are productive, but because herd animals are felt to take special plurals. The plural of mongoose is mongooses however. The productive plural in English is to add -s or -es to the noun.

There is no such thing as a defiinitive rule in terms of language that works 100% of the time, if one manages to break a language down to this level it effectively dies (look at latin). English most certainly, given its recent vintage and the fact that it is in fact a collection of unrelated languages, dialects and suppositions cloven together for simplicities sake, does not meet this description.

You beg the question here. The salient points are that (1) there was a rule that the name printed on the banknotes should be the same -- no cluttering it up with a long list of forms; (2) some few people suggested that this meant that the word was supposed to be invariant and immune to the grammar of natural languages; (3) France, Spain, Portugal, Greece, and Finland jumped up immediately and said that they would not accept such a rule and that they would use euros, euros, euros, EYPA, and eurot as plurals respectively; (5) Ireland did not do this; (6) the UK did not do this but they're not in the eurozone anyway; (7) the Translation Section -- the people responsible for English -- in the Commission recommend that apart from legislation, the plural euros should always be used in English; (8) McCreevy and government did not do their homework and find this out; (9) RTÉ started infecting the nation with bad grammar in an attempt to do the "right" thing like good Europeans but in fact doing the wrong thing, making us look like dopes to the rest of the English-speaking world; (10) people in Ireland are still split, some saying "euro" and "cent" and some saying "euros" and "cents".

There is, in addition, no excuse whatsoever for applying a new plural to "cent" which has had a plural in -s for over two centuries.

Why do the Spanish say "euros" but we do not? Because a mistake was made.

No one had any difficulties for the 25 odd years of the existance of the Irish Punt, which was also most assuredly plural. Fiche punt, triocha punt, 100 punt.

You are wrong here. The grammatical rule in Irish is that nouns following digits are left in the singular.

Yoda

Originally posted by bobsmith833
Has this campaign met with any success yet?

Not so you'd notice. Irish television presenters studiously continue with the s-less plurals, and, alas, most television and radio advertising does likewise. On the cable channels there is a mix, but it is very, very sad to see Sky adverts with English presenters using the s-less plurals as well.

Even if it hasn't, the Irish will be forced into line whenever the English-speaking UK comes into the eurozone, because everyone there says "euros" already and whatever misguided force it was that first got the population of Erin's Green Valleys saying "euro", will probably not be able to get its claws into the insular British populace...

This is my fervent wish.

Kevin Myers' article on this topic, and an article published in the Chicago Tribune, are available at http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/index.html

Gordon

Um sorry to seem flamy but - who cares? really, why does this matter so much? If we say it however we want to we can create language and create fresh mutations in the "English" diction. As with life, creation exists all around and either we stay the same or we move on. I personally couldn't care what we use and even if everyone sticks to the same usage, as long as euro and cent are differentiated between - what does it matter?

The only problems could possibly be on computer systems that need a defined exact phrase but even then € will suffice surely. Can someone honestly say why this matters? sorry Yoda, I haven't read those links you posted, is there some significance to my question there? If so I'll read the links.

sceptre

I'm firmly on Yoda's side on this one. It's bloody annoying. Bob's comment rings a bell, I've thought that for some time. As has been pointed out though, it may be rather cold in hell before the UK joins the eurozone at this point.

Yoda

Originally posted by Gordon
Um sorry to seem flamy but - who cares? really, why does this matter so much?

Because, as Kevin Myers said, "two euro and five cent" is just plain ugly. The first time you heard it you thought so too. Everyone who speaks English was taken aback -- at least a bit -- when it was introduced, because it's not natural.

If we say it however we want to we can create language and create fresh mutations in the "English" diction. As with life, creation exists all around and either we stay the same or we move on.

This isn't some natural evolution of the language. It's a committee's misinterpretation of a rule about the typography of the banknotes, slavishly carried out by Irish government and media against the recommendation of the Commission's translators and it will never, ever be accepted by the rest of the English-speaking world. It's dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb, dumb.

I personally couldn't care what we use and even if everyone sticks to the same usage, as long as euro and cent are differentiated between - what does it matter?

If it doesn't matter to you please feel free to use the natural plurals in -s.

The only problems could possibly be on computer systems that need a defined exact phrase but even then € will suffice surely. Can someone honestly say why this matters?

I guess grammar and spelling and common sense matter.

sorry Yoda, I haven't read those links you posted, is there some significance to my question there? If so I'll read the links.

They are proof that I am not the only person interested in this question. Kevin Myers' article in particular is worth a read.

Gordon

Ok will read the article. By the way I do say with the s as opposed to without, for arguments sake. but grammar spelling and common sense hold no merit with what I talked about in relation to the growth of a language. Sheep/Sheeps? Ok, that is from ancient history... but why keep the tradition?

Personally I love having individuality, I love the fact that there maybe a linguistic law in "English" that states we have to say -s at the end of a plural but if we create something new we can throw out a unique law that makes it an individual - hence go against the law and withold the -s.
But in actuality I do not say 2 euro. jeez English has so many of these such witholdings from the rule that it makes English a very difficult language to master (over Spanish for example) that fact alone would make the 2 euros a good thing but you guys are talking about a common law in Europe is that right?

Anyway, I'll read the article so.

/edit

OK read the article - http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/kevin.html

It's worth a read but tbh all it revolves around are the issues pertaining to non-plural plurals, and even non-non-plural singulars (clothes for example... just confused myself there). It would be nice to have the other side of the argument - the side from the 15 or so people that decided on the non-plural. Got a link to the opposing argument?

Yoda, do you know how other countries say the plural of Euro when speaking in English or do they say it in their own language? For example - Greeks call the Euro "Evro" if they are speaking in English because the eu combination is not used therefore semi-difficult to them (not to say, but to see and speak). I presume they all say their own word.

davros

Originally posted by bobsmith833
Has this campaign met with any success yet?

I wrote an email to Morning Ireland recently asking why their business reporter, Geraldine Harney, says: "Today, the euro is worth one US dollar and eight CENT".

I don't recall anyone ever suggesting that we should retrospectively change the plural for all other usages of the word 'cent'.

I didn't get a reply and she still defies common sense every morning.

We used to claim that one of the defining characteristics of the Irish personality was a healthy scepticism of authority. The 'euro/cent' business sure disproved that one. Charlie McCreevy (someone we don't even hold in particularly high regard) told us we should all change the way we speak our national language and we followed him like sheep.

Consider using 'cents' as a form of protest. We can make McCreevy look even more of a fool if he is the last person in the country who can't pluralise a noun correctly.

Borzoi

Yoda, while you're on a roll, could you try and get the contnentals to pronounce the word properly.

Germans say 'Oi-ro', very disconcerting
.
Just my 2 cent (s)

smiles

I like Euro and Cent

Think about saying "Euros and Cents" then "Euro and Cent" -- for me there's a bit of a mumble between "Euros" and "and" -- anyone else?

<< Fio >>

Giblet

It's a none issue, really that letter is a load of bull to be honest. How can anyone take it seriously when it contains sentances such as "One clerk said cents and another said cent, and I got confused"

Walking and Talking eh?

Yoda

Do learn to read more carefully, Giblet, before you embarrass yourself by misquoting it. The letter (http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/open-letter.pdf) contains no such sentence. It points out my irritation at the fact that both plurals are current in Ireland, which is idiotic and unnecessary.

Another document I wrote which may be of interest is http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/euro-eora-en.pdf

No, folks, this isn't over. But how about if I ask a favour? If you're thinking of just telling Yoda to shut his hole because it doesn't matter to you, how about just not bothering? I've heard it better from the Minister for Finance, who should have known better.

I would invite intelligent discussion from people interested in the problem and possible solutions to it, however.

TomTom

To be honest with you yoda I did not read you letter completly.

I cannot understand your major grief with this. As Pat Cox pointed out to you, it is not illegal to use them, so use them and quite this one man campagin about nothing.

Sure you got recognition and you feel you are making to make a great compromise but I would say from my opinion that most irish people do not care. They will pronound it the way they feel comfortable.

To me cents sounds sill so i always use cent.
Any I use euro or euros when ever i feel it sounds correct.
It's my right to do so.