Euros and cents

Yoda

Dear colleagues,

I have written an open letter to the Minister for Finance, Charlie McCreevy, about the serious problem we have in Ireland, namely, that the false plural without -s is used with the words "euro" and "cent" in Ireland and that this bad grammar is given to us all hundreds of times of day on television every day.

If you have interest in sociolinguistic rights, see http://www.evertype.com/standards/euro/open-letter.pdf

Spread the word.

stereo_steve

I just finished reading your letter. I think it is very well written and you clearly show that you are correct about the way it shouldbe pronounce however;

a) You say that it is confusing to the people, that they don't know what way they should be pronouncing it. Surely after 3 months it would very confusing for us to try and change again? I personally now say euro without even thinking about it.

b) The government are proud that the change over has gone so well. I find it very hard to believe that they would publically announce that they have made a big mistake.

I would be interested to know what sort of reply you recieve though. Will you post up what happens? Good luck

Yoda

a) It's easy to say "euros and cents" because it's natural to the English language. Many people have not been assimilated to it. Many people switch between both, because of their natural grammatical inclination competing with the brainwashing from RTÉ. The rest of the English-speaking world is NOT doing this. We've got to correct it. Yes: go and sin no more. Say "euros and cents" proudly and tell others to do so.

b) Perhaps the opposition will take up the cause. But Government doesn't have to announce the change publicly. They should just make the change, and tell RTÉ to make the change. No apologies. Just do it. A little courage. They've egg on their face now from the mistaken interpretation of the Council regulation. Correcting a mistake is always laudatory.

beaver

Do you have a problem using "sheep" or "fish" in the plural sense?

colinsky

While it's likely in a large part my American dialect speaking, I have to admit that "euro" (without the 's') sounds much more natural to me.

The major argument in your letter claims that it is is "jarring to the ear and confusing to the average citizen." I would argue that both of these are extremely subjective factors.

If I had to explain my perception, I would have to say its the adjectival feel that the word has to me in phrases such as "the euro currency". (or, for that matter, the "dollar bill").

I believe the general source of the discrepency is the fact that that same term is being used to refer to the currency itself (the "euro"), and the bills which make up the currency... resulting in situations where the same reference could be ambiguously either singular or plural (i.e. "these items are priced in euro", where euro refers to either the currency of the pricing, or the prices themselves, which are frequently plural).

Overall, I'd prefer to let the dynamic character of English settle to whatever people find most confortable floating off their tongues -- which for me lacks and s.

---

On the other hand, what I find most jarring here (although it seems a british-ism rather than an irish-ism), are forms such as "orientated", as in "These shows are family-orientated". I would use "family-oriented". That is, one choses 'to orient' the show towards families (verb form); the result of this is the shows 'orientation' (noun form). Likewise, the result of 'limiting' something (very) is a limitation (noun). Do british speakers "limitate" instead?

Again, I'd really have to go along with a "de gustibus" over the whole thing.

Yoda

Originally posted by beaver
Do you have a problem using "sheep" or "fish" in the plural sense?

Of course not. Those were Anglo-Saxon neuters without plural forms, however, and have been pluralless for centuries.

Cent is attested with its natural plural "cents" since at least 1650. Three and a half centuries. And the suggestion that the European Council has the right or the competence to decide that this plural should be changed is simply ridiculous.

Further, and in response to Colinsky's comment, the "naturalness" some people are now feeling to the absurd and unnatural "six euro" is a result of the buffetting we have experienced via the media. In natural grammar, "six euros" is just as natural as "six pesos" or "six escudos" or "six bolivianos" is. Further, as the French, Spanish, and Portuguese are using "euros" in the plural, may I ask, as I have before, what possible good can there be in "euro and cent" being preferred to "euros and cents"? And note that I have discovered the paper trail here, and it's all based on a misunderstanding of the intent of Council Regulation (EC)No.1103/97 of 17 June 1997!

The urban myths and "excuses" for why "euro and cent" should be considered "OK" really are staggering in the face of the facts.

I've been getting some responses from some of the 200 people I've sent my open letter to. It is clear that RTÉ is using these forms because the Irish government asked them to. It is not clear that they are happy about this, and it has been suggested that I continue my campaign. A number of TDs and MEPs have responded favourably as has one senator. Whether they are doing anything or just agree with me remains to be seen.

Yoda

Originally posted by stereo_steve
You say that it is confusing to the people, that they don't know what way they should be pronouncing it. Surely after 3 months it would very confusing for us to try and change again? I personally now say euro without even thinking about it.

May I respectfully suggest that you had to learn to do that, and that you would do well to unlearn it.

The government are proud that the change over has gone so well. I find it very hard to believe that they would publically announce that they have made a big mistake.

Sorry, but the government got it wrong, and this particular feature of the changeover has not gone well, because lots and lots and lots of people are saying "euros and cents" even despite what's on television. I am sure the government will not be pleased that one MEP has written to McCreavy asking him to act in accordance with the arguments put forth in my letter.

I further believe that the Brits will not put up with this silliness at all, in which case we in Ireland will still find ourselves, eventually, in a position to face a policy change. Do you think Blair will allow this to be an excuse for the euro-sceptics to oppose EMU when the referendum occurs?

Yoda

Originally posted by colinsky
While it's likely in a large part my American dialect speaking, I have to admit that "euro" (without the 's') sounds much more natural to me.

My native dialect is conservative Eastern-seaboard and I certainly don't agree with you.

The major argument in your letter claims that it is is "jarring to the ear and confusing to the average citizen." I would argue that both of these are extremely subjective factors.

Not to the people in shops whom I have asked about this. You think it makes sense to change, by fiat, the plural of cent? What good is served by this? Do you imagine for a moment that the rest of the English-speaking world is going to comply? The truth is that the Irish government dropped the ball, for if they hadn't, and they'd said "bollocks" to this practice, none of us would have noticed at all, and we'd all be happily saying "euros and cents". But instead, we've got this absurd situation which can't possibly last -- except that RTÉ is doing a lot of damage because the more times you hear "win a quarter of a million euro" the more easily you will be deceived into thinking that it is grammatically correct.

If I had to explain my perception, I would have to say its the adjectival feel that the word has to me in phrases such as "the euro currency". (or, for that matter, the "dollar bill").

The syntax of euros and cents and the syntax of dollars and cents with regard to the use of plural after numbers and and the natural ommission of it in adjectival use should, of course, be exactly the same. "It costs two dollars and fifty cents." "It costs two euros and fifty cents." "It's a five dollar bill." "It's a five euro note." "It's a two cent cigar."

I believe the general source of the discrepency is the fact that that same term is being used to refer to the currency itself (the "euro"), and the bills which make up the currency... resulting in situations where the same reference could be ambiguously either singular or plural (i.e. "these items are priced in euro", where euro refers to either the currency of the pricing, or the prices themselves, which are frequently plural).

Not so. The syntax should be the same as with dollars and cents, namely, "these items are priced in dollars".

beaver

I find the way you appear to be throwing RTÉ and the Government into some kind of conspiracy over plurals a bit wild. RTÉ and indeed any other official body is more than likely going to use what has been determined as the correct version of any word.

For example, I wouldn't invoice someone and give the price in "Euros" because is it simply wrong, whether it's wrong in a higher sense is utterly irrelevent in such cases.

Yoda

Originally posted by beaver
I find the way you appear to be throwing RTÉ and the Government into some kind of conspiracy over plurals a bit wild. RTÉ and indeed any other official body is more than likely going to use what has been determined as the correct version of any word.

I don't suggest that it is a conspiracy. I suggest that it is an error, and I believe I have shown the roots of that error. RTÉ is doing what the Government and the Central Bank have asked them to do. The Government proceeds upon an assumption that they are doing what Europe wants them to do.

But this is an error of interpretation of the Council Regulation, on the Government's part. The English-language section of the Commission's Translation Service has made it clear that whatever appears in legislation must be represented accurately (regardless of the needlessness of any "legislative plural" for English), but that in ALL matter aimed at the general public, the natural plurals "euros and cents" should be used. Therefore the Government is not, in fact, following the recommendations of those responsible for "good English" in the Commission itself.

It is also an error on the part of the European Council that they have any jurisdiction over grammar in any language. Finland, France, Greece, Portugal, and Spain have already ignored the Council in this matter.

I do maintain, as does the English-language section of the Commission's Translation Service, that there is no earthly reason why we in Ireland should be obliged to put up with a plural "euro" while the French, Spanish, and Portuguese are "allowed" to use the plural "euros", particularly in view of the fact that the rest of the English-speaking world says "euros" as well. And I have yet to see a single argument as to why we should accept a Commission-based change to the plural "cents" which has been in use for at leat 350 years in English.

What advantage, I must ask, is to be had in the plurals which are broadcast to us each day on RTÉ?

(I received a call from Kevin Myers today in response to his receipt of a copy of the letter. Do look for an article from him in the Irish Times on this topic in the next week or so.)

Beaver is right about the cash utility of course. I write "euros and cents" on cheques and will of course accept cheques with other grammar. But that is not the point.

Blobfisk

Firstly, congratulations on a well written, informative and intellegent letter.

I have a question, though, I think I read somewhere that Euros is very very similar to the Greek word for Urine... thus they decided on a plural of Euro... is this true or more media babble?

Just my 2 cents worth....

Yoda

Happy do dispel yet another urban myth, I can report that the Greek word for 'urine' is "oura". No -s in sight. Stress on the first syllable. Remember that in English the plural would be pronounced and that the Greek word for 'piss' is pronounced . (The Greek word for 'euro' is pronounced .)

By the way, the campaign isn't over. RTÉ tells me the government asked them to use the false plural. The minister has said on national radio that people can say euros if they wish. The commission is telling me that only in legislation should the false plural be used.

Now I've got a month before the election. I wonder who the minister will be?

SantaHoe

Should rename this thread - "Euros and sense"
Ok horrible Tabloid headline, but I couldn't resist.