Well is it a world war yet?

Superman

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British Forces Against Terror Land At Coast

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Mar 26, 2002 (The Nation/All Africa Global Media via COMTEX) -- The British Air Force has joined the German Navy in flying spy missions over Somalia in the ongoing war against terror.

Two Royal Air Force Canberra planes arrived in Mombasa at the weekend.

They based at the Moi International Airport from where they will carry out their mission for unspecified period.

The Press Officer at the British High Commission in Nairobi, Mr Mark Norton, said the planes would carry out reconnaissance missions in the "region".

He declined to reveal the exact part of the region but it is widely believed that they will be targeting Somalia whose area over the Indian Ocean is already covered by the German Navy spy planes.

The forces would remain in the region as long as it takes, he said.

The arrival of the planes followed that of a hired Russian Antonov transport plane that landed on Saturday with military hardware.

A day later, a contingent of about 140 Royal British Air Force troops arrived in Mombasa and booked in a beach hotel on the North Coast.

A spokesman for the German Navy Lt. Commander Frank Hansmann confirmed that they would be co-operating with the British in the spying missions

"As partners in Nato, we shall be working closely because we are here for the same mission," he said on telephone.

Lt Commander Hansmann said they had resumed their flights to the Horn of Africa yesterday after a three-day rest. The plane would be airborne for between eight and 12 hours, he added.

He said that during previous spying missions, they had made many "useful general contacts" about the vessels plying in the area.

On why they had surrounded their hotel with razor wire, Lt Commander Hannsmann said it was a purely military precaution to secure their areas of operations.

"First we secured the airport and now we have done the same with the area where we are lodging ... this is a purely military procedure," he said.


Copyright The Nation. Distributed by All Africa Global Media(AllAfrica.com)


KEYWORD: Kenya


Copyright © 2002, AllAfrica.com, all rights reserved.

mike65

I just think its great that British and German armies are fighting on the same side...:)

...booked into a beach hotel? are you sure they're there for the war?

Mike.

dahamsta

I just think its great that British and German armies are fighting on the same side...

I think it's a shame that humanity feels a need to fight at all. It's pathetic.

adam

Boston

Originally posted by dahamsta
I just think its great that British and German armies are fighting on the same side...

I think it's a shame that humanity feels a need to fight at all. It's pathetic.

adam

thems fighting words

JustHalf

Is it not only a World War when two major nations go against each other?

Mr.Applepie

Originally posted by JustHalf
Is it not only a World War when two major nations go against each other?

I think its when many nations go to war against eachother

Lemming

Originally posted by Mr.Applepie


I think its when many nations go to war against eachother

T'is a world war when fighting spans several continents.

WWI - Europe, The Eastern Med (Turkey), etc.

WW2 - the whole bloody planet practically.

Gargoyle

Originally posted by dahamsta
I just think its great that British and German armies are fighting on the same side...

I think it's a shame that humanity feels a need to fight at all. It's pathetic.

adam

Geez, will you get over your utopian world pipe dream? Wars happen. "War is the natural extension of diplomacy." Always has been, always will be.

DeVore

I think the phrase you were looking for is:
"War is the continuation of politics by another means".

I think the universal rules against matter residing in the same place at the same time, the transfer of kinetic energy between objects and our genetic predisposition to take whatever helps us to the detriment of others, pretty much guaruntees that there will always be violence between humans.


DeV.

azezil

I know this is a horrible thing to say but i think war is necessary, not because it solves anything, but becuase people die!

Think of it this way, if there was no war, famine, disease and everyone had enough food to eat, good living conditions, there's no way the Earth could sustain us for very long.

Death is necessary so that the strong may survive and flurish.

Irish_Ranger_IR

Originally posted by azezil
I know this is a horrible thing to say but i think war is necessary, not because it solves anything, but becuase people die!

Think of it this way, if there was no war, famine, disease and everyone had enough food to eat, good living conditions, there's no way the Earth could sustain us for very long.

Death is necessary so that the strong may survive and flurish.

Nature has a funny way of trying to even things out, Azezil is right in saying that, if there was no war, the world would be crowded place, what happens there? More people living happy, but for how long? No where on earth is ever happy, this could not happen, it never has and never will. War goes with Peace, better medicine more disease, with no ww1 or ww2, there would less technoligy, there would be no computers, as they were invented to decode german messages, not to say that they would have never been invented, they would have, if there was no ww2, attom power would not be invented, the list is endless, so in an Ironic world, war is good for industry, technoligy, inventions, jobs, brings ppl together, of course theres death, but in the end we all die, the important thing is how we live.

Gargoyle

Originally posted by DeVore
I think the phrase you were looking for is:
"War is the continuation of politics by another means".

I think the universal rules against matter residing in the same place at the same time, the transfer of kinetic energy between objects and our genetic predisposition to take whatever helps us to the detriment of others, pretty much guaruntees that there will always be violence between humans.


DeV.

Bravo DeVore. Couldn't quite remember, but the meaning is the same. And yes, war isn't going anywhere for a long, long time.

Sand

Azeil youre talking along the lines of Malthuas there. Suffice to say his theory is not bourne out by empirical evidence, though large population growth rates are associated with (empirically and by the solow model) poorer countries.

dathi1

Well if you're investing in Military stocks the future looks rosey..Lockheed up / AT&T up / GEC Plessey up. This is what its all about. Bush looks happy.

Victor

Originally posted by Irish_Ranger_IR
war is good for industry, technoligy, inventions, jobs, brings ppl together, of course theres death, but in the end we all die, the important thing is how we live.

OK, let us say you employ 100 (or 100,000 or 100,000,000) workers and one (or 1,000 or 1,000,000) soldier. The one soldier can destroy the work of ten workers. It takes the surplus resources of a further 10 workers to pay for the soldier and his equipment.

You go to war, you double your army (to 2). Work force is reduced by 1. Your enemy (army also 2) destroys 20% of your annual production (20 workers). The military consumes the work of 20 workers. The war now accounts for about 42% of potential production.

Put your resources to better use please.

Mr.Applepie

Originally posted by Victor

OK, let us say you employ 100 (or 100,000 or 100,000,000) workers and one (or 1,000 or 1,000,000) soldier. The one soldier can destroy the work of ten workers. It takes the surplus resources of a further 10 workers to pay for the soldier and his equipment.

You go to war, you double your army (to 2). Work force is reduced by 1. Your enemy (army also 2) destroys 20% of your annual production (20 workers). The military consumes the work of 20 workers. The war now accounts for about 42% of potential production.

Put your resources to better use please.

Ah economics is there anything it can't explain?

Fair point though victor. Never looked at it that way

Irish_Ranger_IR

1 American plane with 1 rocket wiped out a factory, 100 miles away, and destroys the work of 10,000 workers SO?

You go to war, you double your army (to 2). Work force is reduced by 1

work force is never reduced, as men go to war, women take over the men's jobs, it always happens, look at ww2, women made tanks, shells, bullets, clothes, planes, and so much more, children can be used for small work, if necessary, not everyone that fights in war dies, and not everyone in the army fights,

Your enemy (army also 2) destroys 20% of your annual production (20 workers)

And you destroys there's, so you both are even!

What you are talking about?

ReefBreak

Bravo DeVore. Couldn't quite remember, but the meaning is the same. And yes, war isn't going anywhere for a long, long time.

Personally, I believe that globalisation is the best way to minimise the threat of world war. The anti-gloabisation movement will obviously see it differently - but they'd be too busy protesting and engaging in "civil disobedience" to see the bigger picture.

ykt0di9url7bc3

wait till democracy collapses then we're all in trouble...


war is here until every country is content in its needs...

The Corinthian

Originally posted by SearrarD
wait till democracy collapses then we're all in trouble...

Speak for yourself, I welcome our insect overlords...

war is here until every country is content in its needs...

War is eternal then?

Sand

War can make sense from a political point of view. It makes very little sense from an overall economic point of view (Yeah arms manufacturers will do well from it but theyre not the economy)- assuming of course open economies. It pretty much will be eternal due to politicial differences.

Terran

It's not a World War. It's that simple. No.

yellum

Originally posted by mike65
I just think its great that British and German armies are fighting on the same side...:)

...booked into a beach hotel? are you sure they're there for the war?

Armed Brits and Germans in a hotel environment. Oooooh the race to put your towel on a sun lounger just turned deadly. Victorian cross awarded for injuries sustained in placing the Union Jack Towel on the sun lounger.

dahamsta

Geez, will you get over your utopian world pipe dream? Wars happen. "War is the natural extension of diplomacy." Always has been, always will be.

Just because "wars happen" doesn't make them acceptable. If you accept war, you are by extension accepting murder, rape, child abuse and every other crime against humanity and the person.

There is nothing wrong with dreaming of peace and humanity and trying to achieve them, even if it's only with words. If you think it's wrong to express a "utopian world pipe dream", you're no better than the warmongers. You represent all that's wrong with humanity.

Your thinking is vile, I detest people like you.

[EDIT: This was a bit OTT, I apologise. I just wish that people would let others express their opinion without jumping in and trying to ridicule them. Everyone is entitled to their opinion. My decision to have a "utopian world pipe dream" isn't exactly an earth-shattering troll. If you disagree with me, fine, but how about just stating that, instead of telling me to "get over it"?]

adam

mike65

Methinks Adam is grandstanding a little.

Far be it for me to speak for Gargoyle but I don't think he was suggestjng war is acceptable merely an inevitable side-effect of humanity.

Mike.

dahamsta

Adam gets annoyed when people belittle his right to have a strong opinion on something as objectionable as war.

There is no doubt that there is a part of humanity that is obsessed with violence, war and anger. Every single person on the planet has this contained within them in my view, it's just that some people control it better than others. Me, I had a ferocious temper when I was younger - still do - but I don't let it extend to violence any more, because I recognise it as wrong, a sickness that needs to be cured. I'm not looking for credit for this, because I feel it is my duty to control my anger.

War, violence and anger should never be accepted or even played down "because that's the way people are". To equate it with war itself, it's a daily battle that it is our duty to fight. If we don't, it will continue. The only way to change humanity's view of war, violence and anger is to accept our weaknesses and try to fix them. Not accept them as something that just is, and won't change. It's the opposite of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". We're broke, we have to fix ourselves.

The only war that should be accepted by humanity is our own war against ourselves.

adam

The Corinthian

What a curious point of view - violence as a sickness. What if violence is not the aberration but the natural state of man? What if conflict is at the centre of what defines us?

I think such a revelation might throw a spanner in the civic works of Utopia...

"Don't tell me violence doesn't solve anything. Look at Carthage." - Robert Heinlein

Victor

Originally posted by The Corinthian
What if violence is not the aberration but the natural state of man?

Then why do we _work_ so bloody hard to get food on the table and a roof over our heads. We use our resources positively, collectively to improve ourselves and each other.

War is the antithesis of what we spend 99% of our time doing. Hardly our definition.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Victor
Then why do we _work_ so bloody hard to get food on the table and a roof over our heads. We use our resources positively, collectively to improve ourselves and each other.

When we work we are not only performing a function, we are competing. Sport, acquisition of wealth or knowledge, finding or keeping a mate, even Quake are all competitive pursuits. What is violence, but the most extreme affirmation of competition?

Perhaps then the extreme is the aberration, but only because we suppress it.

Whatever, just a thought. In the end:

Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 34. War is good for business.

Ferengi Rule of Acquisition 35. Peace is good for business.

dahamsta

I don't know anything about Utopia, Carthage or Heinlein, so I'm not qualified to comment. I can only assume that the reference is to a situation where violence created a victory that is accepted by the majority as right, though, and I don't deny that in war, this happens -- although I won't get into specific examples because that will take us even more off-topic. But who's to say that the result would not have been the same without war?

My point is that I believe that we should be working towards resolving our differences without having to resort to war and violence. In this particular case, I believe that the leaders are letting revenge come before what's right for their people. I believe that far more progress is and will be made if people will just sit down and talk to each other. Of course, wars of words will ensue but it is up to us to brush it off, or fight back with our own words. But not with guns.

I realise that my "utopian world pipe dream", is unrealistic in the present tense, something that will not happen in my lifetime. But it's my view that we should at least try to work towards that pipe dream, insteading of putting a check in the box marked "violent" under "humanity". Some people seem willing to just accept humanity as violent and move on. I can't do that.

adam

Clintons Cat

it will probally get shot full of more holes than general custers hat but....

I challenge the notion that War is good for innovation.


The major scientific discoveries and inventions of the last twenty years have been made in regions conspicuous by their LACK of war, USA,Western Europe,Japan and to a lesser extent China.
Meanwhile regions that have had major regional instability and civil wars notably the middle east,central africa and central america have fallen behind in both wealth,health and technology.
Take a look at what twenty years of continual war have done to afganistan or somalia or uganda or lebonon.