Immigration

dathi1

Immigration, Asylum seekers and refugees. A thorny subject which tends to be ignored.. what's your opinion?

Boston

this subject is like a square, it has many sides.
you will never achieve consensuses on this subject because every one looks at it from their side witch tends to be(like a square) going in a totally different direction

dathi1

Ok...but on my side of the Square I see Euro 350,000,000 a year going on something which seems to be out of control. Why cant we have a proper immigration system where people are vetted properly and quickly? Why do we have to wait on Europe to decide our policies on this matter? Why are people afraid to talk about immigration?

mike65

I'm in favour of immigration but as an immigrant I would be.

The only problems are generated here by crass stupidity and ignorance.

I heard yesterday that about 50% all busineses are looking for staff, who will do these jobs if the Irish won't (apparantly).?

Give incomers a chance to work or learn and much will improve.
Give the Irish lessons in thier own history and much will improve.

Mike.

Boston

Originally posted by mike65
I heard yesterday that about 50% all busineses are looking for staff, who will do these jobs if the Irish won't (apparantly).?

come on, you dont really believe that do you?

cant just let them people owrk straight off the boot either, it would turn into some kind of slave labor force

mike65

thats LABOUR, Boston!

Obviously the infrastucture would have to exist to make a quick
passage from "wetback" to working citizen possible but theres' no reason except the ones I mention above for that not to happen.

Mike.

dathi1

I heard yesterday that about 50% all busineses are looking for staff, who will do these jobs if the Irish won't (apparantly).?

Fair point but what I'm talking about is illegal immigration specifically. Why cant we sort out this mess and set up an immigration system on the lines of the U.S.? I mean we could have the best and brightest just like in Singapore. But this idea that we have to employ every person who enters our state illegally doesn't wash with me at all.

Boston

Originally posted by mike65
thats LABOUR, Boston!

Obviously the infrastucture would have to exist to make a quick
passage from "wetback" to working citizen possible but theres' no reason except the ones I mention above for that not to happen.

Mike.

##if you run a post through a spell check it will change it from labour ro labor. try it

bonkey

Originally posted by dathi1
Why do we have to wait on Europe to decide our policies on this matter?

I think you'll find that this is part of being in the EU - a thing called Common Policy. I will admit, however, that the EU administration needs a serious overhaul so that it is no more inefficient than a national government. They seem to have perfected the art of heel-dragging at the moment.

Why are people afraid to talk about immigration?

I think very few people are afraid to talk about it.

The way I see it, it was talked about plenty some time ago, and nothing much has really changed in terms of policy since then, so theres not much new to discuss.

I'm not denegrating the thread here - just trying to explain why this is one of those topics you dont hear much about any more. For most people, unfortunately, its just old news.

jc

Typedef

My opinion is that this country should liberalise it's immigration laws. There are a raft of people who are dubbed 'economic migrants' who claim refugee status in this country. Many of these people come from Nigeria which has in parts of it quite repressive laws. True enough these laws are relgious in nature, but in conjunction with the military Junta that ruled Nigeria with the money of the Shell oil company, Nigeria would seem like a valid place to seek asylum from.

People say that because these people pass through many other countries on the way to Ireland that they have simply targetted this state to sponge. This I do not believe is the case, Ireland is these days a rich country and if someone in Nigeria or elsewhere wants to leave their own country in favor of coming to Ireland because of persecution then traveling through another country to get here is acceptable in my view, why should it not be acceptable, the person has a destination and only their intentions make the argument of 'targetting to sponge' valid. I choose to presume that until proved to be a 'sponger' the person who arrives is a 'refugee' and considering the state Nigeria was in for the last 25 years or so and the state it still is in with harsh and repressive quasi anti-female laws I would say the state needs to relax about allowing Nigerians in particular into the country.

Immigration is vital to Ireland and Irish interests as this country is underpopluated and is in the midst of an economic cede change, this is the opportunity the country has so long strived for, an opportunity to grow exponentially and we essentially can use all the help we can get. Just today the Central Bank predicted Ireland will recover along with the rest of the world from the economic slump, but to put that statement into presective even in the midst of the 'slowdown' Ireland's economy 'grew' by 4-6 % which is by most standards what is dubbed an 'economic miracle', thus to recover will but Ireland into the 8-10 % growth bracket, so the argument that 'we' don't need nor ultimately from a demand for workers standpoint need immigrants is defunct.

I think that Ireland is in many ways insular and is definately xenophobic and whatever you may think of David Trimble's comments about Ireland being 'pathetic' which was clearly pandering to the rabid crowd, it must be said that Ireland is the second whitest country in the world and is thus in many ways 'mono ethnic and mono clutural', so I would support a move to redress this situation by diversifying our culture as the opportunity arises.

Typedef.

Typedef

Originally posted by mike65
I'm in favour of immigration but as an immigrant I would be.

The only problems are generated here by crass stupidity and ignorance.

I heard yesterday that about 50% all busineses are looking for staff, who will do these jobs if the Irish won't (apparantly).?

Give incomers a chance to work or learn and much will improve.
Give the Irish lessons in thier own history and much will improve.

Mike.

I think you will find that Mike is quite right, Ireland is not the USA and Ireland is booming and either Ireland capitalises on this boom and employs as many people as it can while the going is good or it squanders it's opportunity to really grow this economy and this island.

The island is under populated and ultimately we Irish have nothing to fear from people who 'wan't to come here as those people have already made up their minds that they want to be part of Ireland. America was built into the superpower it is by it's colonists and later immigrants, but the Irish are not the native Americans it it not the same thing to compare allowing a few hundred thousand immigrants into the country to the brutal colonisaiton of the USA, but the notion of immigration helping to build a state definately is.

Lets open our minds to the possibilities.

carpe diem

Boston

as you said ireland isnt the us, and a sudden influx of people, say a 100,000 is going to have a terrible effect on the country, try as you may you will only find employment for a fraction of these people. the rest will have to be state supported

Sand

traveling through another country to get here is acceptable in my view, why should it not be acceptable, the person has a destination and only their intentions make the argument of 'targetting to sponge' valid. I choose to presume that until proved to be a 'sponger' the person who arrives is a 'refugee'

As has already been stated elsewhere a refugee is sharply defined. Ireland has no obligation to economic migrants beyond what we choose ourselves.

this country is underpopluated and is in the midst of an economic cede change, this is the opportunity the country has so long strived for, an opportunity to grow exponentially and we essentially can use all the help we can get.

A large population is not a desirable policy goal, a high standard of living for each individual is a desirable policy goal. A higher population growth rate brings about a higher required level of investment to maintain individual living standards. As such the population boom you earnestly wish for brings few benefits to Ireland. Our rapid growth is also explainable by investment levels currently, what it has to do with false refugees is lost on me (at least by your explanation).

it must be said that Ireland is the second whitest country in the world and is thus in many ways 'mono ethnic and mono clutural', so I would support a move to redress this situation by diversifying our culture as the opportunity arises.

I must admit Im baffled, what is wrong with being the second whitest country? Or even the first? Why is a more ethnically diverse (measured in skin colour by your definitions of what is mono ethnic) a desirable policy goal? Do we suddenly become a better country if were more "diverse"? Whats the magic number that makes us a good country? 5%? 10%?, 20%? Personally I look at our closest multi cultural neighbour, Britain and I see institutionalised racism in the police force, racist murders and racial rioting in cities. Why is this desirable? Do we have the resources and know how to get right what Britain has got wrong?

mike65

Boston, the reason I picked you up on the lost "u" was to remind you and others we not yet the 51st state, but it seems we are. Bloody boards software...

"Have a nice day! "

Mike

Sand, there's nothing wrong with diversity as its the crazy mix that gives societies extra drive, zip and invention. I think its why so many ex-pat Irish have done so well round the world, the mere fact of moving gives one imputus. Hence a more dynamaic economy where many cultures mix.

dathi1

My opinion is that this country should liberalise it's immigration laws.

Ok what's your quota? how many...? I bet you wont put a number on this one If you believe in liberalising immigration you must take responsibility for the number of people you let in..true? Costs etc.. i.e.: Religious schools, new special laws, welfare starter packs, training, social support, integration admin.. Because we don't let these people work the bill so far per year is euro 350 million. How much do you think we should spend to cater for a open border policy?

Many of these people come from Nigeria which has in parts of it quite repressive laws. True enough these laws are religious in nature, but in conjunction with the military Junta that ruled Nigeria with the money of the Shell oil company, Nigeria would seem like a valid place to seek asylum from.

and just as a matter of interest... can we solve the third world's problems by opening the floodgates here? So Nigeria has a repressive government...so has China,Belarus,Turkmenistan,Iraq,Somalia (funny you don't see any Somali refuges here) etc .. That's 6 billion people so far who would qualify under an open border policy. Remember Britain pulled out of Hong Kong and their British subjects where told no way on British passports.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Typedef
My opinion is that this country should liberalise it's immigration laws.

Bit of a blanket statement... Other than the points raised by dathi1 on the initial naturalization of such economic immigrants, you do have to ask a number of other questions, for example:

* Do we allow in those that would inevitably be burdens upon the State (e.g. the physically and mentally handicapped)?
* Do we allow in those with criminal records – for violent or even non-violent crimes?
* Do we impose entry criteria, such as working capital (i.e. they can support themselves at the start) or level of education?
* Where we let them in and give them work permits, do we send them back if they have not secured a job within, say, six months?
* What do we base quotas (if any) upon? The rate of unemployment?

If we throw out the racist arguments against immigration, we’re left with economic ones, which can be distilled to one basic argument:

An economic immigrant should be allowed into a country, if they are economically viable and productive resources within that country’s economy.

If an economic immigrant is not, then, outside of a misguided sense of middle-class guilt, what is the logic of opening the gates?

Immigration is vital to Ireland and Irish interests as this country is underpopluated and is in the midst of an economic cede change, this is the opportunity the country has so long strived for, an opportunity to grow exponentially and we essentially can use all the help we can get.

That is unfortunately not a valid economic policy. Rapid change can be wildly damaging to any economy. That Ireland is underpopluated, relative to the rest of Europe, maybe so, but supply and demand are catered for. Believing that introducing an increase in population will simply expand the economy, that the ratio between supply and demand will remain stable, is naive.

I think that Ireland is in many ways insular and is definitely xenophobic

Yes, it is. When I came to Ireland as a child I couldn’t speak English at first, and even after I could I was all too aware of how uncomfortably different I was to many. But, as I’ve said on numerous occasions, this is not a rational reason for overcompensating in the opposite direction.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
I must admit Im baffled, what is wrong with being the second whitest country? Or even the first? Why is a more ethnically diverse (measured in skin colour by your definitions of what is mono ethnic) a desirable policy goal?

I agree.

(Wow - is this the first time I've agreed with Sand?)

There is nothing inherently wrong with being the "whitest country". I mean - you dont hear slurs thrown against China for being the "yellowest nation", or some African country for being the "blackest nation".

Our island status, coupled with our location, historical troubles, and relative poverty, pretty much guaranteed that until very recently, we really had nothing to offer people. We weren't a white nation, we were an Irish nation - we had very, very few people of any colour moving here from other nations .

What would be wrong is enforcing policy designed to keep the country "white". This is the card most people play against our immigration laws - that they are specifically targetted at keeping the country white.

I dont have enough information to give a definitive opinion on the matter, but I dont recall seeing anything in our immigration or refugee policies that gives skin-colour any attention at all.

At worst, our policy is designed to keep Ireland Irish, which is probably just as bad, but a completely different issue.

At best, we have a system which patently doesnt work, and which needs to be revised. The entire system - not just "open our borders". We need to look at support, integration, volume, etc.

I agree that we need to review and revise our laws. We need a workable policy, because we sure as hell dont have one now. Yet again, it seems our government is more interested in piecemeal legislation where they patch each leak as it is highlighted, rather than looking at the entire issue and reformulating the entire policy. Why? because the cries for change are so loud that the government wont be allowed to say "we're forming a new policy - it should take about 3 years to get it right".

People want a fix now. That means patching existing policy. That, ultimately, will never solve the problem.

jc

Typedef

* Do we allow in those that would inevitably be burdens upon the State (e.g. the physically and mentally handicapped)?

What possible interest could it serve to allow a burdon to be put onto the state, I don't think that anyone would argue for such a thing, however, the notion that the tens of thousands of Nigerians who are trying to get into this country by hook or by crook have nothing but economic burdon to offer the economy is nonesense, clearly Ireland has more jobs available then it has people to fill them and if 'we' don't find people to fill them, some other country will, I'm not saying simply allow the ubiquitous floodgates to be opened, but there are insufficient numbers of Irish people to fill the jobs that are being made by this economy and this will continue to be the case for a good few years to come, so our shortage of workers must be redressed and as there are tens of thousands of people clammering to get into this country, why not simply let them fill the jobs that are being made. Such an expansion would only increase Ireland's own economic strength and would probably lead to yet more job creation.

* Do we allow in those with criminal records – for violent or even non-violent crimes?

Absolutely not, the only exception being so called 'political prisoners'.

* Do we impose entry criteria, such as working capital (i.e. they can support themselves at the start) or level of education?

Perhaps basic literacy and numeric skills should be a requisite also perhaps tests for infectious diseases like HIV too.

* Where we let them in and give them work permits, do we send them back if they have not secured a job within, say, six months?

I would favour a period of one year to eighteen months and give the option of 'naturalisation' to workers after 2 to 4 years of empolyment.

However I would have trouble on basing immigration laws on economics purely. An economy is a fast changing beast and what seems like a good idea in month n may not seem so great on month n+4, therefore in a climate of extremely high economic growth as Ireland looks 'more than likely' to be in for some time to come I would propose a relaxation in immigration laws allowing for a more permiable border and ability to stay and ultimately become a part of Ireland and an Irish citizen.
I don't propose allowing 300 million foreign workers into Ireland as the Irish People's party would have me believe are waiting at the gates and ports of this country ready to overrun the place, but I would give preference to the tens of thousands of 'refugee' status people who invariably get rejected their status in the main, to stay and work and ultimately become citizens of this Republic.

Typedef.

Boston

typedef I think the first ground rule for discussing this subject is not to focus on specific situations. you know as well as the rest of us Nigerians have to get the same treatment that's anybody else from a 3rd world country would get.

would it be fair and turn that around and say no arabs because they may be terrorist? there need to be one common policy across Europe.

I would favor a period of one year to eighteen months and give the option of 'naturalisation' to workers after 2 to 4 years of empolyment.

and how would you keep track of these people. this is why so many countries have or had detention centers, cause these people were merely sinking away into the cities.

the police are slow to arrest people for being accused of racism.

your problem seem to be that were does compassion come into it, remember no good deed so un punished.

btw sands nice point

The Gopher

Originally posted by dathi1



Somalia (funny you don't see any Somali refuges here) .

Actually theres a good few Somalis-its just that if the average Irishman dosent seem to realise there are such things as Non-Nigerian Africans.True not as many Somalis but it would still be in the hundreds.

dathi1

Actually theres a good few Somalis-its just that if the average Irishman dosent seem to realise there are such things as Non-Nigerian Africans.True not as many Somalis but it would still be in the hundreds.

Here's the break down from Gov stats:July 99
Romania
680

Nigeria
501

Poland
250

Kosovo
118

Sierra Leone
103

Democratic Republic of Congo
97

Moldova
88

Russia
57

Somalia
52

Angola
52

Bulgaria
49

Iraq
45

Ukraine
38

Belarus
27

Libya
21

Georgia
19

Pakistan
16

Ivory Coast
15

South Africa
13

Sudan
13

Congo
12

Cameroon
10

India
10

Tajikistan
10

Typedef

Wow the floodgates are open there huh?

Better start to legislate against travellers, break apart famalies and deport members of them selectively and legislate for the disabled such that their interest groups condem you, oh wait I forgot these are three of the first four news articles on rte1's teletext tonight.

Perhaps, though the scare mongers are right and it is wholely necessary to split apart famalies and deport those in it on the strength of arbitrary reason x. Typically the Irish who post here are ostensibly critical of the USA, however with the kind of alarmist xenophobic and lets face it racist policies this government is espousing vis-a-vis immigration and deportations the Irish are in no position to pass judgement. I find it shocking that after six hundred years of occupation and colonisation by the largest empire the world has ever seen, and with a major famine attributable to said imperialism, the Irish can still transcend and digress into a seething pit of persecution of minorities, if you need proof of this just go check out the titles on teletext tonight.
Deportation of father, while family stay.
Anti Traveller legislation.
Condemned legislation for people with disabilities.

Now without getting into unrelated debate about these points, for me this points to some pretty damning evidence that the government is infact a conservative anti-minority, xenophobic entity, which is hardly surprising as the PD's are a part of it. Radical free enterprise seems to be the rallying cry for the PD's, but for me that policy is a euphamism for Irish Thatcherism.

Typedef.

Boston

Travellers dont need you to defend them typedef,

i fully support the recent actions against Travellers, its long over due. these people neither deserve nore wish for our support. they dont want to intergrate and conform to any rules.

it will be a cold day in hell before i care about them.

anyway Traveller have nothing to do with immigration.

nobody claims the flood gates are open, jsut that there is no reason to do so.

those figures dont actually reflect well on the numbers here since they are 3 years old.

dathi1

the Irish can still transcend and digress into a seething pit of persecution of minorities

can you explain this futher?

Boston

god no, im sick of this beating ourselves with a big stick mentality

were no worse then any other countries, at least our foreign policy doesnt cause thousands of refugees, unlike american france england ect

blondi

I've no real problem with immigration but believe the same immigration laws should apply wether you're black from Nigeria etc. or blonde with blue eyes from the U.S. or Switzerland or anywhere else outside the EU.
My problem is with Illegal Immigration specifically.
I don't believe we should interfere in the domestic polotics of other countries.
As for 'Refugees' the question is finding a balance between our moral responsibility and appeasing a dictator somewhere by accepting the task of feeding, housing and looking after the thousands of people he's trying to get rid of..?
'Gothe' said ' thoeries are grey and real life is green'
Why are we always farting around with thoeretical compromises ?
Mother Teresa is DEAD and I'm confident she's in heaven now as a result of her lifes work but things are different here in the real world on planet earth.
The Celtic Tiger has had a tranquiliser dart in the arse and the dream is over, time to face reality........?
We need a full programme of proper integration where those wishing to settle here learn about our laws and customs , their civic duties and commitments .
Don't tell me that's not possible ? the Chinese/Orientals have been coming here for 30 years and seem to integrate well without losing any of their cultural heritage, they don't live in ghettos and work their arses off, for themselves as much as making a great contribution to modern Irish culture ??
I've never met an Oriental I didn't like, but what gets up my arse is people insinuating cryptically that your a racist if you dont love 'Bob Marley' that's just stupid **** and the race card being played every time someone orders a 'black' coffee will bring us down the same road as England.
The baby/passport law needs changing , that's a joke ! and the dogs on the street know it.
Sewing seeds of resentment such as the above and other matters regarding housing allocation is something that will torment us in the future,we had a very bad housing problem before any of this started, not to mention our health services and social welfare, and the dogs in the street know that too, because they piss all over the sleeping product of that government failure every night,at every ATM in Dublin sleeping in a cardboard box.
Events in Yugoslavia and Africa and recent Al Queda activity in Ireland stresses the need to properly screen people coming in and to restrict the movement of anyone whose credentials or Identity is Questionable.
Remember Dr. Joseph Mengele the Auschwitz doctor lived and died a free man in South America after ww2 . I guess he burned his SS I.D on the boat....?
so I would like to see a SOBER , SENSIBLE solution to this issue
( Not a 'final' solution )

Boston

you see because so many people,and in fairnes your one typedef, make immigration a race few people are see that immigration past the colour of your skin.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Typedef
Better start to legislate against travellers.

What exactly has this got to do with immigration?

Now without getting into unrelated debate about these points

Too late, you started going OT in the first line of your post.

for me this points to some pretty damning evidence that the government is infact a conservative anti-minority, xenophobic entity, which is hardly surprising as the PD's are a part of it. Radical free enterprise seems to be the rallying cry for the PD's, but for me that policy is a euphamism for Irish Thatcherism.

Damning evidence? In fact? Irish Thacherism? LOL

I’m afraid, Typedef, that all you’ve presented us with here is a rather mindless, if impassioned, rant. You have given a theory, not fact, based upon evidence you allude to, but do not present and upon your own definitions of conservative, anti-minority and xenophobic (without arguing why your definitions are correct, or indeed giving them in the first place). Finally, you tie it all into a quasi-conspiracy involving a political party and a 1980’s socio-political doctrine (not explaining the connection between your definitions and this).

In short, you’re talking complete merda.

If you want a soapbox to speak from, please start a new thread and specify it in the subject line, and you can rant against all the evil capitalist oppressors you want.

Otherwise argue your case and it will succeed or fail on its own merits.

blondi

I Agree with boston RE: recent action on Travellers. I Accept that halting site facilities are poor in many cases, but litter laws and trespass laws apply to EVERYONE and travellers have no justification in looking for exemption from laws that dont suit them.
There are many laws I dislike, the laws on soft drug use is one , but until that changes, it's tough **** for me , we live in a democracy and until the majority want it, it should remain illegal.
I dont like it but will live with it until sensible debate and the wishes of the people prevail in my favour.
Again the 'Mother Teresa set' cant resist their bleeding heart demonstrations and newspaper centerfolds of 'Citizen Traveller'
to make us feel guilty for living our lives responsibly, paying our taxes, keeping our living space(be that a bedsit in Manor St. or detached residence in Donnybrook) clean, respecting our neighbours.
I feel sorry for the women in the travelling community as they dont seem to have the same 'freedom' within their own community as women have in the settled community.
Perhaps if they had as much control over their own lives things would change as I firmly dont believe any woman wants to send her children out begging, but in many cases must do to feed the socila habits of a drunken and often violent husband who's status is measured in the amount of offspring he has produced.
Yes the women have it rough...But the law is the law and that law wouldnt exist unless people felt the situation couldn't continue and hence , lobbied to have it passed.
Settled people have a right to protect their property and I don't resent them for that by labeling them as Racist .