Is it possible for a guy to be a nice guy without being,as sven put it, a pervert etc

Shinji

The only nice guys ARE the perverts. No seriously. Genuinely nice guys are all perverted, and generally really quite open about it. It's the ones who AREN'T perverted you want to worry about. They're planning something, I tell you...

(Me, well jesus, if we assume that perversion and being nice are linked, I must be the nicest guy on the whole damn planet... )

Mahotée

Originally posted by lordsippa
I'm SICK of hearing that as an excuse for people being substandard. i can't believe that being a person is to blame for someone not being perfect. it is within the grasp of some people but they ruin it and should be shot.

i checked up briefly last night, saw this and assumed you were taking the p1ss. but just in case

i wasnt giving an excuse for people 'being substandard'. not that i, as a girl, and therefore perfect beyond anything with a y chromosome could comprehend, owe you any excuses. im saying that they (all people, including you and me, isnt belief in equality fun?) are standard. you just wish the standard was higher. maybe you think your friends are better, but no, its just that theyre your friends so theyre less likely to mistreat you than strangers or enemies. and even if they do, you'll forgive them, or take it as a joke, because they're friends, yeah? i

oh, you absolutely were taking the piss. you were! say you were. of *course* ou were. werent you?
at this stage, thought, i wont believe you even if you claim you werent.

um . . . i have a dictionary here (it was in the room anyway) for definitions, cos i hate having to define stuff.
i think the meaningmost peopoe are using for 'nice' here is "kind, good-natured".i think the oed definition of pervert is too extreme for what people here or talking about. im taking it to mean an individual who is overly and unwantedly (and often knows it) lecherous. feel free to use other definitions of either, of course.

but i think that fionnuala is wrong, in that its the trying to treat others well that makes a kind person. because it would be so easy to just look out for yourself, but some people keep trying to make life a bit better for others too.

i'll probably think about this and type more some other time. maybe.

smiles

Originally posted by WhiteWashMan


there are a lot of genuiinely nice people.
just because they dont buy you a ferrari and are there for you 100% of the time doesnt mean they arent nice.
it means they have their own lives to lead.

id also like to know what is meant by 'nice' anyway?

I dont want a ferrari.

My idea of nice is not someone dedicating their life to me, that's hero worship and putting people on pedestals, etc. Things that i cant actually stand.

Nice is being nice because they can be, and being honest. Not nice is being a lier and deliberatly hurting people.

Perverted doesnt come into it (for me), all guys are perverted.

I dont think there is anyone who is completely genuinely nice. It's a human failing.

<< Fio >>

imp

To me, nice is genuinely wanting and trying to make other people happy.

I think its very easy most of the time, and also rewarding.

}:>

Crash

Originally posted by smiles

I dont think there is anyone who is completely genuinely nice. It's a human failing.

<< Fio >>

Ok then, niceness, as is perversion, is all relative.

And i agree with ian, you get that lovely warm feeling inside knowing you helped someone, made them happy etc and its a good enough reason to try as hard as you can to be nice

yossarin

niceness is a perversion, in the hunter gatherer sense.

oh - atari jarguar !

Typedef

You think people are nice out of the goodness of their hearts? Beg to differ.
People are nice because it affims their own ideas of how they should behave and in the end that person finds self gratification in preforming 'nice' acts.
The fact that some people delude themselves into thinking that they are doing or being nice for someone other than themselves is a crock. Real life doesn't work like that, people aren't just arbitrarily 'nice' and wholesome to each other, there is always an ulterior motive wether that motive be conciously recognised by the 'nice' person or not.

Nice 'guys' invariably want something in return for their selflessness whether said Ken automaton knows this to be true or not.

People give selflessly because deep down they want to feel like martyrs or some other such nonsense, when I give to charity for example it is because I recognise that having billions of people in poverty in perpetuity is unsustainable and I'm quite sure on a subliminal level such random acts of kindness make me feel good and self assured, but that is the maslowian impetus behind such things I am sure. The id ultimately controlls many of the facets of life that people delude themselves into thinking is free and reasoned choice.

Belch

imp

I can say with complete honesty that the only motive I have for making other people happy is because it helps keep me happy too. Now I don't see anything wrong with that, do you?

}:>

Cait

do you remember in friends when phoebe tried to find a selfless act?

lordsippa

ARGH! NOT THE ALTRUISM DEBATE!


and hold on... this wasn't about if people can be nice. yes, they can. and i like to think that i am a nice person.

BUT i do hold that anyone truly perfect, anyone without some flaw is not nice... they would be far too serious if they had no flaw.

Perversion (which i personally hold as a godly way of being) is one example of things that make nice men nice. especially to women. i can think of very few women (although i can think of some) whom i will be nice to and will not feel some sort of happiness (and let's face it - it is sexual no matter how much we deny it, we just don't get the same thrill from guys - unless we're gay). it's just their smile, or the way they get all happy and emotive that makes it work. and no, that's not perversion... i know. but this is trying to slowly lead you down the path of understanding why guys are (for the most part) complete perverts.

but yes... say someone isn't interested in sex. well... they've gotta get their thrills from somewhere. and if they are nice and fun and interesting they're going to have to have some interesting hobbies (let's face it - sex is VERY interesting). something weird and unusual. something crazy (or completely psycho)... again... leading towards proving my point.

and pervert guys can be all nice and then not perverted if castrated. so there.

and there's the whole gay debate. but i didn't mention gay cause let's face it - some gay people can be right asshole the same as non-gay people. there's no difference apart from which side we all like to get into (or have get into us) so i really don't thinks it's fair to make comparisions...

chernobyl

The reason sex is so interesting is because we very rarely talk openly about it.
Even women who talk in a much more liberal manner to each other about sex still find it interesting but thats why guys have such a fascination about sex.
We are pretty muted about the details of sex with each other and long may it continue.

imp

For me I don't think sex would be interesting because of some sort of social taboo that's attached to it. For me it'd be interesting because it was about the expression of emotions towards someone. That's just me of course, there are some people who find it interesting purely because of the physical pleasure involved.

}:>

Crash

Originally posted by chernobyl
The reason sex is so interesting is because we very rarely talk openly about it.
Even women who talk in a much more liberal manner to each other about sex still find it interesting but thats why guys have such a fascination about sex.
We are pretty muted about the details of sex with each other and long may it continue.

That is also kinda comparable to my theory as to why it is much easier for a straight girl to kiss a girl than a straight guy to kiss a guy.

a) catholic church always mentions homosexuals in reference to male homosexuality, well almost always. and as i'd say a large proportion of us were attempted to be brought up catholic, it has a deep rooted influence within our culture. also, tv will always show to lesbians kissing, but rarely two gay guys kissing, so people are much more openly exposed to female homosexuality than male </off topic rant>

and sven, the argument isn't whether people are nice are not, its whether they can be nice without having a large percentage of the attributes that you mentioned in the other thread.

Ferror

I guess you could say i'm a nice person!
But infact i'm really only nice to those i'd consider to be my friends!!
Everyone else would probably consider me a complete arsdehole becouse i am!! <at least to them> and possibly a bit of a psyco too, but hey thats just a matter of opinion.

still it kinda proves sven's point!

SheroN

what a silly debate.

four_star

you started the thread you knob!!

Crash

No he didnt, i did. and this is a community, so basically it makes little difference if its irrelevant etc. because it is a discussion among members of said community.

lordsippa

and sven, the argument isn't whether people are nice are not, its whether they can be nice without having a large percentage of the attributes that you mentioned in the other thread.

Ok... to answer this argument see...

and hold on... this wasn't about if people can be nice.

smiles

Nice is relative.

Someones lover is someones bastard.

<< Fio >>

rymus

Originally posted by lordsippa
but i do think that in fairness men are all pretty much scum.

Then it seems quite likely you have been associating with the wrong type of men. Not all men are scum, just the type that women normally go for.. the whole 'bad boy' image and all that

Mills

Bad topic to have a discussion as people's perceptions of what "nice" and "perverse" mean are different. I think I'm pretty nice, and I wouldn't consider myself perverted, but I imagine a lot of others would feel the same about themselves. Quite a few people would probably find some things I say perverse, but IMO that doesn't make me a pervert, to me a pervert is (for example) someone who spends a lot of time thinking about things they'd like to do to someone they know, they could be as nice as pie to said person's face but all the time thinking how they'd like to have them chained up in their dungeon at home. On the other hand a lot of what I say that could be considered perverse is just my sense of humour and doesn't run any deeper than that.

And the whole being "nice" thing is even more relative than perverse, I couldn't care less whether some miscellaneous stranger thinks I'm nice or not (and most of the miscelleneous strangers round here that don't know me would be of the opinion that I'm not very nice, due to one or two rumours circulating and the kind of community I'm stuck in at the minute), what would bother me is if someone who knew me well thought I was a right bástard.

You think people are nice out of the goodness of their hearts? Beg to differ.
People are nice because it affims their own ideas of how they should behave and in the end that person finds self gratification in preforming 'nice' acts.
The fact that some people delude themselves into thinking that they are doing or being nice for someone other than themselves is a crock. Real life doesn't work like that, people aren't just arbitrarily 'nice' and wholesome to each other, there is always an ulterior motive wether that motive be conciously recognised by the 'nice' person or not.

I don't have any ulterior motives behind how "nice" I am in most situations, apart from being nice to people makes me feel good, and that's an "ulterior motive" behind just about everything I do in life. If I honestly believed that there was no such thing as a "nice person" and that anyone who appeared to be nice was just putting on a show because of some ulterior motive (other than because it makes them feel good, which I don't think counts) I don't think I'd have much apetite left for life.

sisob

ok I have just read the first few posts on this thread and im not bothered reading the rest...

<rant>
ok, most people I know would (probably) call me a nice guy, or at least a gentleman. I do not force myself on women/girls and all the rest. i'm not exceptionally perverted - i'm just horny in a fun way(i hope)

anyway my point is that a line has to be drawn between a "nice guy" and guys who are artificially nice and all "sweetness and light" and have their names changed to brad. From now on these guys shall be called brads

I am a nice guy, sven is a nice guy, ian is a nice guy, neil is a nice guy ..etc...

but on the whole ctyiers are not brads. A lot of teenybopper girls think that a brad is the ultimate guy. brads are the kind of guys who never talk about sex but get women so drunk that they can't remember if they were raped or not.

I can come off as v. horny and sexual and maybe even perverted - but the fact is i've never done much more than kiss anyone - and that is out of choice. I think that men are free-er an happier and have less pent up anger and hornieness when they fell free to talk and joke about sex and express their desires.

I think this may be what sven was getting at - and was probably not trying to insult all guys who aren't "pervert's"

"Free Love"

</rant>

sisob

it's funny - this is something i've been trying to work out in my head

For a year or 2 (or 3) i've been freeing people - giving them an accepting athmosphere to be honest about sex and all that - and you would be surprised how relieved people are when they can finally talk openly and no be afraid of being looked at weird.

I just hate the whole sex taboo and blame it for a lot of complexes in a lot of men.

lordsippa

actually i was getting at the brad thing. my point was that all these super nice people were actually assholes under it all. all us people who are nice but have our flaws and wear them openly weren't included. We're not one of those "super duper nice" guys that women go crazy for.

Thank you mark for being not as bloody incompetent as some others.

sisob

"not as" *grinn*

anyway the great thing is that I scare off all the shalow idiots who go for brad's - it acts as a great filtration.

so the lesson is - if you want an actual nice guy go for me or sven - wait no, me and sven.

personally it would scare the bejesus out of me to be going out with a brad - never know when he's gonna crack ...

Crash

*Neil COUGHES *very* loudly and extends middle finger in makrs general direction for not mentioning him

sisob

Originally posted by foobar
*Neil COUGHES *very* loudly and extends middle finger in makrs general direction for not mentioning him

i got bored of writing names - you and colm and anyone else that wants to join the party are also included

Crash

Fine, you're forgiven. well, it has now become my conclusion that sven was not originally talking about those flaws specifically, but flaws in general. ah well, my bad.

Ferror

Originally posted by sisob


i got bored of writing names - you and colm and anyone else that wants to join the party are also included

Damn, and i was just about to join Neil in the raising of fingers...


YOU ARE FORGIVEN I GUESS!

qwidgybo

i wouldn't go out with a brad if you paid me.they'd irritate the crap out of me.