a European State

Kappar

What are peoples' feelings on eventually creating a European State? My
feelings are that we would benefit from a larger more powerful state but
only with a number of things needing to be done like,

· An unambiguous written constitution be passed by the majority of the
people of Europe. Constitution must provide for a

1) Military presence without conscription.

2) A stable democracy

3) Inalienable Rights for all Humans

4) Right for the preservation of national history and culture of the former
states and for the assimilation of all others history and culture.

5) Notwithstanding point four the definition of national history and culture
shall not be interpreted to include Language.

6) The people of the state should select the first and official Language any
subsequent languages and the peoples' selection should not be limited or
suppressed by any other legislation in the constitution or law.

7) A fair and equitable judiciary.


That's all I can think of now but I am sure I can think of more.

I know this is a very complex issue and can't just be rushed into but I do
feel that if some proper taught is put into it could become a democracy that
would take precedence over the US.

So dose any one have any taughts on this let's hear them.

Typedef

I am totally opposed to a Federal Europen Union based along the notions of a Federal union of states in a USA like motif and here is why.

I used to support the notion of a Federal Europe, but the treaty of Nice soured me on it, why? Because in that treaty the larger countries attempted to curtail the voting rights and privileges of this country and attempted to constrain in a multi faceted way this country's influence and it's citizens say and influence in decission making processes that would ultimately affect the citizens of this country's lives.

Even traditionally pro Europen politicians like Nora Owen did not support the Nice treaty and public stated that they treaty was being supported because of the Fine Gael's traditional pro-Europe stance.

Make no mistake that treaty is not in the national interests of this country in any way. Once Ireland begins to cede away influence in Europe to the bigger and coincidentendially 'former colonialist countries' Ireland will effectively become a second class state with diminished sway on issues that effect 'our' daily lives in important ways.

For example if the French have thier way, there will be 'tax harmonisation' across Europe, but such a harmonisation to for exampe German levels of tax would take Irish tax rates as a percentage of GDP from around 25% to about 31% and would impose a higher rate of corporate tax onto Ireland and thus reduce this state's attractiveness as a place for inward investment, the investment in the 'Eurozone' would instead go to countries like France funnily enough with the 'same' tax rates, but vastly superior infrastructure and acess to 'core' European markets. Then Irelands' European subsidies would have to be increased taking this country from a position of 'net contribution' to 'net leeching'.

Thus Federalist, Pan European economic pontifications will spell real and appreciable risk and attrition of 'our' competitiveness, if European models of taxation and spending were to be enforced, the unempolyment rate of this country currently joint lowest in Europe at 4.1% with Denmark(a Eurosceptic state) would invariably rise to the levels of the imposed Franco-German ideal.

This is simply a facet of my economic argument against a Federalist style European Union.

On the note of the attrition of this nation into a 'melting pot' of pan European nations which on the surface would seem to be great, I have difficulty. I simply find such an attrition as window dressing for tacit yet appreciable dictation from France, Britain and especially Germany, who were in their hayday the worst Kiplingesque Imperialists of the Imperialist era. For me this notion of a two tier Europe as was espoused by Nice is a form of Neo-Colonialism. In principal I would support a Federalist Pan National state as a precursor to a 'World Government' but in practice this Union seems to have an awful lot of Arian people for want of a better term sitting behind European seals and approvals, dictating to people in Ireland and people across the Union the way things should be done. With Germany comprising roughly one third to one quarter of the population of the Union, what else does 'qualified majority' voting actually mean, but more votes for Germany and in a wider sense more votes for the big former colonialist countries, and what would that make this country but a second class member and a quasi-colonialist appendage?

dahamsta

Perhaps I'm missing the point Typedef, but didn't Ireland have a referendum on Nice and reject it, thereby holding up the process for the whole of Europe? Weren't Bertie and Prodi just a tad miffed about it? In other words, didn't democracy work?

Will a "United States of Europe" remove that democratic process? (Asking, not trolling.)

adam

Kappar

?

I used to support the notion of a Federal Europe, but the treaty of Nice soured me on it, why? Because in that treaty the larger countries attempted to curtail the voting rights and privileges of this country and attempted to constrain in a multi faceted way this country's influence and it's citizens say and influence in decission making processes that would ultimately affect the citizens of this country's lives

I fully agree the nice treaty is a shame,the way it allows for larger states to highjack Eu institutions,and if there was not a inaleinable provistion to insure full equality for all members then i would forget the whole thing.

For example if the French have thier way, there will be 'tax harmonisation' across Europe, but such a harmonisation to for exampe German levels of tax would take Irish tax rates as a percentage of GDP from around 25% to about 31% and would impose a higher rate of corporate tax onto Ireland and thus reduce this state's attractiveness as a place for inward investment, the investment in the 'Eurozone' would instead go to countries like France funnily enough with the 'same' tax rates, but vastly superior infrastructure and acess to 'core' European markets. Then Irelands' European subsidies would have to be increased taking this country from a position of 'net contribution' to 'net leeching'.

Very Good point which i didn't think of, but i am sure that something could be done to somehow correct this.

Boston

Im totaly against such a move, i believe that democracy on this level.

dahamsta: if they put the treaty to the people again, without changing a single thing, is it still democracy? i dont think so

As for armed forces, do you really want irish lads going to fight wars that are economicaly in the ebst interest of europe, or worse yet, fighting some half assed war on terrorism.
i was disgused when bertie said bush had his full support in his war on terrorism. were ment to be neutral

dahamsta

dahamsta: if they put the treaty to the people again, without changing a single thing, is it still democracy? i dont think so

It's not perfect democracy, no, but it's still democracy. If the Irish Government puts the Nice Treaty to the people again, without changing a single thing, I will vote against it again. The only difference is that this time the Government will get larted for wasting our money.

adam

billy the squid

If I remember correctly the government wanted to go tinkering around with the referrendum commission when the nice treaty was rejected.

Personally I think they did a wonderful job of giving a balanced view but perhaps it was too balanced.

United States of Europe, they can keep it. unless we can keep control of things like our budget social welfare tazation.