Who is more at fault?

Terran

Who should take more blame for the escalations in the conflict in the Mid-East?

mike65

I've just logged back on after a few hours away and thought I was going mad, as I'd contributed to this thread earlier or I thought I had, now I see its the remake.

Anyway who is more at fault?, the answer is the same as I gave the last time, to suggest someone is more at fault in this morass
almost by default suggests another party is less cupable, both Arafat and Sharon and thier various yes-men are equally at fault.

Mike.

WTF is Atari Jaguar?

Boston

i disagree, as the dominint player in this war, isreal has more control, therefore the greater sahre of the blame.

also hes only doing this to sure up his own goverment,

dahamsta

Mike: See here.

adam

gandalf

The reason you are seeing this thread again was because I dumped it in the recycle bin as I felt it was making light of a very serious situation in the middle east. I have now edited out the "Atari Jaguar" option as I again feel it is inappropriate.

Gandalf.

Typedef

If the occupation that even the staunchest allay of Israel the United States is now calling for a end to did not exist the proportion of violence in the Middle East would be exponentially diminished.

Israel needs to withdraw permanently from all occupied regions and needs to stop the colonisation of those regions too and no matter how strong the Israeli lobby in the US is, it cannot resist in perpetuity the necessity for such a withdrawal. Furthermore Israel has to come to a land for peace agreement with the Palestinians as laid out by the UN in 1948.

These are basic and necessary ownesses and criteria that Israel must live up to and exponenciate, immediately.

Terran

I'd get annoyed at the removal of Atari Jaguar if I wasn't so hyped up about coming home from a boring holiday and if the replacement optionj wasn't really good because it is a I forgot it when first posting and I talk way too much without a stop don't you all agree?

Typedef

Gandalf is totally right, this is no joking matter, lots of people are dying and suffering and have been doing so for quite some time now.
I don't mean to be a kill joy but in reality these discussions must center around serious intelligent individuals expressing an opinion and testing the versimilitude of other people's opinions vis-a-vis their own and sparring with each other from a lexicon of opinions, but always those opinions must be respectfully expressed and in light of the terrible human suffering that is entialed in the Middle East conflict I think a measure of perhaps sterility is the watchword.

gandalf

Terran I have warned you in a Private Message not to post rubbish on the Politics forum. I am now repeating it in public. Any more rubbish on here and I will ban you.

If you have problems with me edited stuff in future PM me.

Gandalf.

dathi1

I'm new to placard waving and protests....how do I / we? do a demo outside the Israeli Consulate? do you have to ask permission from the Gardai? and is it illegal to burn foreign flags?

king of fifa

the jews and their american allies must take the majority of the blame.i know that the jewish people must have a warped view on protecting themselfs on account of not so recent events,but i dont think it was the palestine people who tried to wipe them off the face of the planet.they just happened to live on the land that america and the jews wanted to call isreal.now they cant even live a free life because they were in the "homeland".

GerK

I would have to say that Israel is more at fault. What they are doing is illegal, plain and simple, and they are openly committing these crimes as state policy. At least Arafat can hide behind claims that he has no control over the actions of the terrorists in his territory. And it would seem there is at least a a shred of truth to that. So, innocent until proven guilty? Seems after 9-11 "democratic" societies have left the pretence of that ideal behind.

I'm suprised 'Foreign Authorities' has not gotten more votes as they are clearly to blame for thier continued support of Isreals State terrorism and other illegal activities for decades. They have also set the precident that its acceptable to make war on any state that has suspected terrorists within its borders.

The terrorists (on both sides) should be treated like criminals, and the proper legal steps should be taken to aprehend them and prosecute them within the law, instead of bulldozing the houses of peasants.

mike65

Originally posted by king of fifa
...but i dont think it was the palestine people who tried to wipe them off the face of the planet.

I think its the view of most Palestinians and other arabs in the region that they would happily see Isreal and the Jewish people
pushed into the sea.

Mike.

Culchie Boy

Neither is responsiple.It is Religion is responsible the jewish religion says palestine belongs to the jews and islam says it belongs to the palestinenians. Religion is the cause of all world conflicts. Just look at Northern Ireland. Watch Promises on the discovery channel to find out more.

Culchie Boy.

GerK

Originally posted by Culchie Boy
Neither is responsiple.It is Religion is responsible the jewish religion says palestine belongs to the jews and islam says it belongs to the palestinenians. Religion is the cause of all world conflicts. Just look at Northern Ireland. Watch Promises on the discovery channel to find out more.

Although I agree to a point that religion plays a large role in a lot that is wrong with the world I think is an over simplification in this case. After all the catholic religion calls for an eye for an eye etc. Now I can be a rational person and take that in context or I can pervert its meaning to justify any act of violence I desire to commit. The problem is the people not the religion. To blame giving in to your hatred on some parchments scribed thousands of years ago is pure cowardice.

I'd also like to point out that the reason for most conflicts are purely economic, despite what spin may be put on them.

bugler

Catholicism does not call for an eye for an eye. It was the old Testament that called for "an eye for an eye", making it very much more relevant to judaism than Catholicism. Does the Pope support the death penalty, or condone revenge attacks? No. Christians are mostly taught to turn the other cheek (New Testament). Given the Israelis' often hostile environment (in many cases, such as settlers' this is self-induced) and other factors it is not surprising that vengeance has such a prominent role in their national psyche. In case anyone is wondering, I am not a Christian. It is unfair to name religion as the only cause of the trouble. Religion is a huge factor in the trouble, that can't be denied. It is Israel's insitence on basing policy on mythology that sees settlers lured onto stolen arab land. This is the main problem that religious extremism is throwing up. For peace to prosper it is jewish extremists that need to quietened, should that happen you'd be surprised how support for Islamic extremists would fade, providing a viable state for Palestinians is established as a result.

'Promises' didn't tell me anymore than what I expected: That Jewish settlers fail to raise rational and conciliatory children, that Palestinian kids are driven to violence by poverty, humiliation and jealousy, and that there are large numbers of secular people on both sides whos voices are drowned out by those of the belligerent.

GreenHell

Since I haven't read anyone else's posts I'll just post away.

The Palestinans have been promised their own state since the 1950's, around the time isreal became a state, now that would piss me off.

Also Isreal has been oppressing the Palestinans for ages, unfortunately right now the old PLO tactic of fighting the Isreal's with stones and what not, has changed just a bit, its a bit more lethal, and Isreal rolling in tanks will have no effect. If the mentallity of "We can beat them if we kill them and take over their land" continues it will continue to be and endless cycle of death. Since Isreal will never ever be seen to compromise to the Palestinans, its going to keep going the way it is. Oh well they had their chance both sides blew it.

corkey

This is a land war not religion its about the jews getting more land and moving there borders for security with usa help the palestinans are being screwed and we in europe look on again and let isreal get a away with it whats happening here. Is Europe afraid to speak

bonkey

Originally posted by dathi1
and is it illegal to burn foreign flags?

Can you offer one good reason why any form of protest or demonstration could have a valid reason for burning the flag of another nation?

Why not just spit in the faces of the people who work there the next time they walk out of the building. Its about as civilised, and gets its message across at about the same level.

jc

GerK

After all the catholic religion calls for an eye for an eye etc.

Catholicism does not call for an eye for an eye. It was the old Testament that called for "an eye for an eye", making it very much more relevant to judaism than Catholicism. Does the Pope support the death penalty, or condone revenge attacks? No. Christians are mostly taught to turn the other cheek (New Testament).

OK I didn't really think that through properly before I typed it. I was just trying to illustrate a point. Fair call.

Can you offer one good reason why any form of protest or demonstration could have a valid reason for burning the flag of another nation?

I COMPLETELY agree! I suggest, Dathai, you try and articulate your discust in a more constructive fashion!

handyandy

Originally posted by dathi1
how do I / we? do a demo outside the Israeli Consulate

Sanely, rationally and without violence of any kind. Picket the Chancery (public office) not the Residence(s). Organise stewards. Do not enter the Embassy (technically part of the other country) - hand in a letter at the gate / door.

Originally posted by dathi1
do you have to ask permission from the Gardai?

Not as such. However it would be a good idea to do so, in particular if you expect to have a crowd or expect to disturb traffic. the relevant Garda station is Donnybrook (I think).

Originally posted by dathi1
and is it illegal to burn foreign flags?

Not as such. However, to do so publicly (even on private property) would be incitement to hatred.

king_of_inismac

Who is to blame for the strife and conflict in the middle east.A very interesting question, and one which requires an indepth knowledge of middle-eastern politics to understand. A point which seems to have been overlooked by previous posters is the initiation of the conflict by the british in 1917. I must prescript my post by saying this is not anti-british propoganda but fact.In 1917, britain, having the mandate of the palestinian state, released the following statement in order to appese the jewish people and gain support for allied forces:

His Majesty's Government view with favor the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country.

Sharkey

Originally posted by bonkey


Can you offer one good reason why any form of protest or demonstration could have a valid reason for burning the flag of another nation?

jc

Well, personal satisfaction, I guess. I personally find such symbolism silly.

Being an American I am use to seeing some group or another burn the stars-and-stripes on a weekly basis -- both by non-U.S. citizens and radical American lefties. I never get much upset, but I do admit to getting a small thrill at the occasional dork that lights his own fool self on fire. However, should I be around someone aflame from such activity, I do admit that I am not one so hate-filled as to refuse to piss on them to extinguish the flames. I'd definitely help.

bonkey

Originally posted by Sharkey
Being an American I am use to seeing some group or another burn the stars-and-stripes on a weekly basis

Do you mean Americans, or foreigners (such as the media shots from the ME)???

I have no problem with an Irish person in Ireland burning the Irish flag - even though by law it is illegal. I think that burning the flag of a foreign nation is indicative of pretty much the same level of intolerance and deliberate provocation which has contributed massively to the ongoing crises in the Middle East.[/B][/QUOTE]

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
I have no problem with an Irish person in Ireland burning the Irish flag - even though by law it is illegal.

Where does it say it is illegal? I thought burning was the approved method of disposing of flags.