Pro Palestinian Demo

Victor

Originally posted by colinsky
Well, if they ever realize that conducting business profitably involves developing favorable relationships with customers, rather than blowing up restaurants and knocking down buildings in New York, their "workers" might get a tad of my sympathy.

Are you somehow trying to link the ordinary Palestinian people with the attack on the World Trade Centre? And are you saying that all Palestinians are responsible for a small minority of extremists?

The reason so many Palestinians are unemployed is due to Israeli actions (border closures amd the like), not Palestinian ones.

colinsky

Originally posted by Victor


Are you somehow trying to link the ordinary Palestinian people with the attack on the World Trade Centre? And are you saying

While not "the ones piloting the planes", the Palestinians, by their support of Islam, are inherently guilty of endorsing attacks made in its name.

(In the same way, that, for instance, a supporter of the Catholic Church provides, through their membership, inherent endorsement of the Church's policies on homosexuality and abortion).

---

"Those who distinguish between America and Israel are the real enemies of the nation. They are traitors who betrayed God and His prophet, and who betrayed their nation and the trust placed in them. They anesthetize the nation.

These battles cannot be viewed in any case whatsoever as isolated battles, but rather, as part of a chain of the long, fierce, and ugly crusader war.

--Osama Bin Laden
http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0111/S00049.htm



"And to America, I stay to it and to its people this: I swear by God the Great, America will never dream nor those who live in America will never taste security and safety unless we feel security and safety in our land and in Palestine. "

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/world/DailyNews/strike_binladentrans011007.html


"London - Governments around the world offered condolences for the devastating terrorist attack while in contrast, thousands of Palestinians celebrated in the West Bank and in Lebanese refugee camps."

--Associated press, http://www.statenews.com/article.phtml?pk=5520

Victor

Originally posted by colinsky
While not "the ones piloting the planes", the Palestinians, by their support of Islam, are inherently guilty of endorsing attacks made in its name.

(In the same way, that, for instance, a supporter of the Catholic Church provides, through their membership, inherent endorsement of the Church's policies on homosexuality and abortion).

My you are some troll aren't you? Yes, the Catholic Church has specific philosophies (not policies) on homosexuality and abortion, but it does not in any way condone gay bashing, does it? Likewise would you condemn the Church of Ireland for the Catholic Church's philosophies?

Islam (and please note that Al Quaida and the Palestinians generally belong to different sects) preaches peace, it condemns attacks on the unarmed. Al Quaida hi-jacked religion, people and airplanes.

colinsky

Originally posted by Victor

My you are some troll aren't you? Yes, the Catholic Church has specific philosophies (not policies) on homosexuality and abortion, but it does not in any way condone gay bashing, does it? Likewise would you condemn the Church of Ireland for the Catholic Church's philosophies?

Islam (and please note that Al Quaida and the Palestinians generally belong to different sects) preaches peace, it condemns attacks on the unarmed. Al Quaida hi-jacked religion, people and airplanes.

Well, supposing we're invoking the Shia/Sunni distinction, we can wonder then at what condemnation the Palestinians ever showed against the (peaceful?) fatwa against (the seemingly unarmed) Salman Rushdie?

I believe that it is not just Al Qaeda who is the problem. If we look at the history of plane hijackings, embassy bombings, attacks on restuarants and shops, death threats against authors, etc., it seems clear to me that while the murders tend to come from different countries, different background, different financial classes, different sects, their religion _does_ remain a commonality.

I don't consider myself a troll. However, my wife and I did move to Ireland from Manhattan at the end of last April, and I wonder that if we had delayed our trip by only a couple weeks she (or I for that matter) could have been targeted. I do take that extremely personally.


(As for the Church of Ireland, I'm not really knowledgable of what their specific relation is with the Vatican to comment at the moment)

Victor

Did you personally issue a press statement on the Fatwa on Salman Rushdie? Assuming you are also human, can I not call on your humanity to issue such a statement?

Originally posted by colinsky
I believe that it is not just Al Qaeda who is the problem. If we look at the history of plane hijackings, embassy bombings, attacks on restuarants and shops, death threats against authors, etc., it seems clear to me that while the murders tend to come from different countries, different background, different financial classes, different sects, their religion _does_ remain a commonality.

This is because you are being selective. Will you condemn the Catholic Church for the war in Croatia or Buddhism for the wars in South East Asia?

Oh, and I seem to remember Bush invoking a Crusade (where heathens, man, woman and child, are butchered first and judged after).

Originally posted by colinsky
I don't consider myself a troll. However, my wife and I did move to Ireland from Manhattan at the end of last April, and I wonder that if we had delayed our trip by only a couple weeks she (or I for that matter) could have been targeted. I do take that extremely personally.

Why what happened in May?

Originally posted by colinsky
(As for the Church of Ireland, I'm not really knowledgable of what their specific relation is with the Vatican to comment at the moment)

Church of Ireland would be roughly Anglican / Church of England.

colinsky

Originally posted by Victor
Why what happened in May?

Church of Ireland would be roughly Anglican / Church of England.

Err.. August.

Victor

Originally posted by colinsky
Err.. August.

Eh ... caught you out?

colinsky

Originally posted by Victor

Eh ... caught you out?

Well, caught me typing too fast. Twas August...22nd.

I'll try to say a little bit, but I should be back to work.

Originally posted by Victor
This is because you are being selective. Will you condemn the Catholic Church for the war in Croatia or Buddhism for the wars in South East Asia?

Personally, I do believe that almost all major interpersonal strife is due to religion, and that the major purpose of organized religion is for behavior control and to ritualize power in the hands of those who control their religious behavior.

I am strongly against violence. As for the Palestinians, I believe there has been enough evidence that their violence is not just a group of fanatics, but a widespread behavior -- being "just a kid, only throwing rocks" not an justifiable excuse. I also believe that Islam -- and how the religion conceptualizes violence against innocents as an acceptible means for personal gain -- is a major contributing factor. The fact the their leader, Arafat, does appear to share responsibility doesn't help the cause of that their (or _any_ violence is "justfiable") -- with the possible exception of self-defence. As long as such attacks continue, I believe that the Israelis do have the right to self-defense.

Loomer

Originally posted by colinsky



Well, if they ever realize that conducting business profitably involves developing favorable relationships with customers, rather than blowing up restaurants and knocking down buildings in New York, their "workers" might get a tad of my sympathy.

That really displays a lack of intelligence in forming a competent argument and if that wasnt enough you large brush goes on to tar the whole of Islam in your following rebuttal.

Originally posted by colinsky


...we can wonder then at what condemnation the Palestinians ever showed against the (peaceful?) fatwa against (the seemingly unarmed) Salman Rushdie?

??? What relevance does this statement have. Ayatollah Khomeini issued this fatwa on Feb 14 1989. Using your flawed logic you are suggesting that the entire Islam race are programmable automotons unable of independent thought. You seem unable to give followers of religions, islamic and christian alike, any credence of common sense.

It is quite clear to me that a select group of individuals from the USA who flaunt these xenophobic racist remarks are responsible for affecting non-americans( and some more intelligent americans) with a disdainful view of your country. I believe that this americo-centric attitude, unfortunately goes a long way in fueling the hatred towards your native country in many places around the globe. More important than any political initiatives that are put forward I believe this destructive attitude should be remedied first and foremost.

colinsky

]Originally posted by Loomer
It is quite clear to me that a select group of individuals from the USA who flaunt these xenophobic racist remarks are responsible for affecting non-americans( and some more intelligent americans) with a disdainful view of your country.

We were talking about religion here. I'm not sure how racism entered the picture. And I also do not consider it xenophobic to be apprehensive or critical of those whose stated goal is fear, terror, and mayhem.

??? What relevance does this statement have. Ayatollah Khomeini issued this fatwa on Feb 14 1989.

Victor had argued that the suicide attacts by the Palestinians could not be connected to those of Al Qaeda, because the Palestinians followed a different sect of Islam. Khomeini provides an example of a case in which the _same_ sect demonstrated their disdain for human life.

sing your flawed logic you are suggesting that the entire Islam race are programmable automotons unable of independent thought.

I am accusing them of using their religion as a justification for murder.

bonkey

Originally posted by colinsky
I am accusing them of using their religion as a justification for murder.

Which is pretty much unarguably true.

Unfortunately, its a thorny issue. While we disagree, and indeed many of their fellow believers (from different sects, I'll grant you) also say it is wrong, these people firmly believe that they are doing nothing wrong as their religion permits their actions.

Its a tough problem. Despite espousing freedom of religion in the west, what we really mean is that you have freedom of religion within the bounds of the law - that religion does not give you the right to ignore right and wrong as dictated by law. However, it is also true that our western laws are predominantly evolved from Christian beliefs. We say all life is sacred, and enshrine this in law, but ultimately, this law has been derived from our own religious beliefs.

So - when we say that these people are wrong, we firmly believe it. However, from their perspective, they are not doing anything wrong, and Christian-evolved law has no right to cast judgement on them.

Personally, I still think we are right to pass judgement - they are wrong. Why? Simple - they maintain that their religion says that their actions are right....but similar actions by others are wrong, by their own faith and the faith of others. This duplicity is where the logic breaks down. If killing innocents in the name of some cause is perimssable, then it is permissable to all - which the Palestinian extremists do not accept.

Unfortunately, the western world has all too often looked at the conflict and condemned the actions of only one side and justified the actions of the others - we are equally guilty of the same double-standards.

Ultimately, both sides are wrong. Both sides cannot justify their actions. Condemning only one of them is impossible, unless you wish to use double-standards. If you do that, however, then you pretty much have no solid basis to be casting judgement at all.

jc

SABLE

Originally posted by bonkey


Despite espousing freedom of religion in the west, what we really mean is that you have freedom of religion within the bounds of the law - that religion does not give you the right to ignore right and wrong as dictated by law. However, it is also true that our western laws are predominantly evolved from Christian beliefs. We say all life is sacred, and enshrine this in law, but ultimately, this law has been derived from our own religious beliefs.

Oh yeah, I forgot. People had no moral codes of practice before Christianity (or any religion). Have you heard of the Greeks. Funnily enough they had codes of law independent of religion.

Get down from your ivory towers and stop clouding the issue with your "simple" xenophobic (because thats what it is) view of "eastern" religion and its followers.

Loomer

The above post is mine. I was in a cafe with Sable logged on so don't attribute the remarks to him.

bonkey

Originally posted by Loomer
Oh yeah, I forgot. People had no moral codes of practice before Christianity (or any religion). Have you heard of the Greeks. Funnily enough they had codes of law independent of religion.

I suggest you refamiliarise yourself with ancient greek religions.

Get down from your ivory towers and stop clouding the issue with your "simple" xenophobic (because thats what it is) view of "eastern" religion and its followers.

Can you explain how it is xenophobic? In exactly what way am I demonstrating an irrational fear of foreigners? I also have never claimed that our western cultures or religions are in any way superior - simply that we are judging them based on our baseline, which I recognise as being different, as opposed to better.

Which makes me think that I'm not really in an ivory tower either.

Maybe if you could use fewer catch-phrases and actually try explaining your point I might have a clue what you are on about.

jc

dathi1

why is there a big debate about religion on this Palestinian Demo thread?

Loomer

I like catch phrases! Maybe Yasser Arafat should take a line from Bart Simpson - "I didn't do it"

Loomer

Originally posted by bonkey


I suggest you refamiliarise yourself with ancient greek religions.

Not wanting to stray to far from the topic, but I am quite sure the musings of Aristotle, Socrates et al drew nothing from Zeus and his assorted Titans