Do we need the Defence Forces?

Scruff

arrgh! voted the yes instead of no.

ye'd think with the thread called "Do we need the defence forces?" it would be a straight yes\no to that but oh-no ye have to go and be awkward ....:rolleyes:


/edit and only now after reading the thread do i see keeks has pointed it out and other people have made the same mistake. :rolleyes: at least i'm not the only eejit

Sand

We should be able to contribute to military International peace keeping in some capacity.

Why? It does absolutely nothing for us and there are other far better equipped and trained to carry it out.

And who wants to have to design and raise Defence forces from scratch when things look a bit dodgier?

As if we wont have to should Eurasia invade anyway? Quite simply with no navy, or airforce wed lose anyway, even assuming we had the equipment to equip an army significantly larger than the 10000 ish we have now- and somehow developed the combat experience and strategical/logistical know how to use it effectively - the greatest milatary tragedies and blunders have occured when barely trained armies led by inexperienced commanders have taken to the field. (Note: Patrolling UN peacekeeping areas doesnt count as combat experience).

It is nice to offer our citizens the chance to pursue either a full time or part time military career in the service of their own country.

A very costly chance to pursue a highly unproductive career.

The criticisms of the way the poll/thread was posted are valid, Sand. Not everyone will read each and every line of text, unfortunately. The title of the thread gives a completely misleading slant relative to the actual poll question.

They mightnt read every piece of the text but they should read the question. If theyre not arsed doing that then Ill give their answer the same time they gave the question. Ill admit I may have erred in my estimatation of the respondents ability/desire to read the question and in future Ill put it in block capitals or something.

What was the problem with taking the time to read the question? Surely you managed to fit it in while reading the thread? Or was it simply a snap decision made and executed as quickly as possible? And *then* you read the thread? - and presumeably the question.

Scruff

If there was no army there'd be nothing to stop the Peoples Republic of Cork becoming a reality :eek:

Seriously though, aside from the fact that our army isn't exactly battlefield ready, do you seriously think that we live in such a politically stable country and island that we can afford NOT to have a standing army of some kind???

With no army any amount of crackpots, the R.I.R.A. or anybody who wanted to could import arms, there are plenty of people with the necessary contacts to import arms again still out there and have a coup for themselves. And just because the I.R.A. are on siesta doesn't mean a couple of months or years down the line they won't break ceasefire. If that happened do ye think they'd forgo one of their political aims and not try and overthrow the elected government with only a few special branch Gardaí with revolvers??

Not to mention the fact that the Republic would be open season for any loyalist terrorists. I bet we wouldn't see u walking through the back roads of Monaghan or Cavan in the pissing rain in the middle of a winter night patrolling the border.

I think "Sand" is a very good nickname for yerself, ure head is certainly buried in it. (:eek:)

Victor

There is one fundamental reason to have it. That way all teh gun freaks can be collected into one little area.

Sand

do you seriously think that we live in such a politically stable country and island that we can afford NOT to have a standing army of some kind???

Ummm, yeah. There is no conceivable threat to Irish independance. Certainly none which only the DF can prevent.

any amount of crackpots, the R.I.R.A. or anybody who wanted to could import arms, there are plenty of people with the necessary contacts to import arms again still out there and have a coup for themselves.

The Gardai are quite effective in combatting the IRA. They have the intelligence capability to do so and should armed force against some terrorist cell or person be required the Gardai's version of SWAT (forget the actual name) is up to the task.

and not try and overthrow the elected government with only a few special branch Gardaí with revolvers??

800 "activists" who dont have the balls for actually fighting the British Army but instead prefer to leave bomb women and children vs thousands of Guards? With little or no public support (Yes Sinn Fein is rising in popularity but thats only the element thats always been there showing their true colours imo)? Im sure Ill still sleep soundly at night.

Not to mention the fact that the Republic would be open season for any loyalist terrorists.

And would be thwarted by intelligence gathered by the Gardai and the PSNI. The loyalists are of the same quality as the IRA. Theyre all snivelling thugs.

I think "Sand" is a very good nickname for yerself, ure head is certainly buried in it. ()

LOL. Dont even get me started on Scruff

Victor

Originally posted by Sand
The Gardai are quite effective in combatting the IRA. They have the intelligence capability to do so and should armed force against some terrorist cell or person be required the Gardai's version of SWAT (forget the actual name) is up to the task.

The Emergency Response Unit - ERU - call sign "Oscar". Not considered very good, poor general gun discipline (common throughout the Garda) and considered trigger happy.

Sand

So more than a match for the boys of the old brigade then?

GreenHell

ERU, asked about them before not that impressive, not that many of them.

Ireland also being part of the EU the most successful part of the EU in recent years more than likely has increased its appeal to terrorism of the international kind.

Also aren't the army responsible for defusing bomb's in the republic and do most of the work when it comes to dealing with terrorism?

Victor

Originally posted by Sand
So more than a match for the boys of the old brigade then?

Who?

Originally posted by GreenHell
Also aren't the army responsible for defusing bomb's in the republic and do most of the work when it comes to dealing with terrorism?

Yes the army does bomb disposal, Central Bank protection, cash escort and lots of other things. The Gardaí provide the width of protection against terrorism, the Army provide depth.

Sand

ERU, asked about them before not that impressive, not that many of them.

I remember reading that the unit was trained by the Ranger Wing, assuming theyre not that impressive how impressive can the Ranger Wing be despite it being referred to as an elite unit? They dont need to be Rambo to deal with IRA cells, most of them are badly equipped even by the standards of the Irish army and with far less training. Neither does there need to be that many of them.

Yes the army does bomb disposal, Central Bank protection, cash escort and lots of other things. The Gardaí provide the width of protection against terrorism, the Army provide depth

And in other countires the law enforcement agencies provide the bomb squads. The other jobs you need can be done by the Gardai, especially Gardai bulked up to the tune of 738 million dollars.

GreenHell

Lets say for a moment the Gardaí get bulked up with all the armies budget and the army is disbanded, thosen't the gardaí then take over all the armies roles, thus becoming an army under a different name?

Victor

Originally posted by Sand
I remember reading that the unit was trained by the Ranger Wing, assuming theyre not that impressive how impressive can the Ranger Wing be despite it being referred to as an elite unit?

Remember the bank robbery in Athy about 10 years ago? Five people shot, two dead? Bank robbers not having pulled their triggers. One of the Gardaí shot in the foot - by himself?

No doubt they do some training together. To say the ARW train the ERU would be wrong. The Gardaí are too proud to accept training from the army. They are dissimilar organisations. One has a military orientation (with the intention of killing people), the other police (with the intention of saving people). The ERU would not do stuff like sabotage, parachuting, diving, jungle patrolling heavy weapons training or chicken killing.

Sand

Lets say for a moment the Gardaí get bulked up with all the armies budget and the army is disbanded, thosen't the gardaí then take over all the armies roles, thus becoming an army under a different name?

No, because our defence forces at this time are the Gardai under another name- they take up funds that could be going to worthwhile services and merely duplicate jobs, like bomb disposal and cash runs, that can be done elsewhere more effectively. Whats more they apparently require machine guns and tanks for these jobs? This is wasteful imo.
By the Gardai being bulked up you could have more Gardai, more equipment (Such as cars and helicopters to pursue crinimals), as well as the funds to open say , more youth detention facilities which we need far more thn the defence forces when people with a history of crime are free to ram garda cars:(

To say the ARW train the ERU would be wrong.

Yeah I accept that, on further memory trawling I recall they trained them on use of their weapons, marksmanship etc- I remember that point being raised regarding the Abbeylara shooting.

Fidelis

Off-topic, I know, but that Abbeylara incident was farcical. They were using uzi's and shotguns from a distance. No proper sniper element at all. I also remember reading that all of the ERU personnel involved in the incident had failed a marksmanship test under the auspices of the ARW, only days beforehand!

Victor

Originally posted by Fidelis
I also remember reading that all of the ERU personnel involved in the incident had failed a marksmanship test under the auspices of the ARW, only days beforehand!

"Marksmanship" is an applied topic, a speciality, most soldiers would not pass the marksmanship test either. That said, I would expect an elite team to pass it.

Before Athy the pass mark was 40/100 (not per cent) and was then upped to 70/100. I'm short sighted, unpracticed and have shaky hands and can get 40-50. I'm not sure what mark marksmanship is, but it would be well in excess of 90.

AFAIK, the score for any given weapon is based on the standard range for that weapon (10m for air rifle, working up to 300m for an assault rifle and more for a dedicated sniper rifle) 10 points are assaigned for a bulls eye (bullet diameter) down to 1 point for the edge of a circle about 15 bullet diameters across. Total is taken from 10 shots.

Occidental

A little side note on the Dauphin and the Air Corps in general.

The Dauphin is a fine helicopter and is in good use with Coast Guards, Navy’s and other military users around the world. It is not obsolete and in Air Corps terms is actually quite young. Where the Dauphin has problems is when a customer tries to use it as a ship borne, land based, rescue, supply, general transport, all weather, long range helicopter with no support. Once you’ve fitted it out for these roles, the extra weight has reduced the already limited capacity and range (and it flies like a reluctant brick). Now for good measure, send it to Waterford(which closes at night) for 24 hour SAR duties with absolutely no support and minimal local training.

The Sikorsky replacement for the SAR role could work out very well and may prove to be a fine helicopter. Merlin’s, Sea Kings and S61’s(as currently being used for SAR in Ireland) are already proven in use and might have been more obvious choices. However the Dauphin was also a fine helicopter and who’s to say that the Air Corps aren’t capable of screwing up the Sikorsky too.

Sharkey

Originally posted by Sand
Looking at the recent poll on this board regarding Irish neutrality, where something like 57% of the respondents voted to keep Irish neutrality/pacifism, a question arises - Why do we need an army/navy/airforce?

According to the CIA factbook we spend something like 738 million dollars per year on our armed forces- and we get very little benefit from it. There are no forseeable threats to Irish independance ...

Respectfully, should some foreign interest, e.g., the Ukraine, decide to waltz into Ireland and kick your defenseless butts, would you expect your friendly neighbors to bail you out?

Hey, the reality is that no same entity will attack those who can defend themselves -- and for the insane attackers, there's no substitute for an armed population and/or a well-prepared defense force.

Sand

Granted, but Ireland couldnt defend itself from Cyprus let alone the Ukraine. Hence youre spending 738 million dollars on a service which is primarily useless. As such if Ukraine was to invade then our only realistic hope would be friendly intervention.