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Sleeping Problems (not quite Insomnia)
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14-04-2002 4:45pm#1Anybody that knows me well enough, would know that I'm the type of person that would sacrifice sleep, at any cost to complete projects or pursue ideas etc. The problem with me is that I live in a 24hr world, and my body can't keep up. This might sound strange, but I always find I would prefer not to have to sleep at all because it gets in the way, when I should be doing other things.
Take for example it's 11pm at night, I sit down to write some code, and all of a sudden, some programming power from above inspires me, and all sorts of ideas fill my mind. I don't notice the time, and turn around and notice light coming through my curtains; it's the following morning. I go down stairs, have breakfast, and await exhaustion. I know that the majourity of human activity is performed during the daylight hours, but at around 11am the following morning I just drop, and can't think straight.
As programming is concerned I could never do it properly in the morning (even after a good nights sleep), I do my best work when I've been up for a while (the longer the better, hence the whole, being able to program @ night thing). Ever since I was a child and my friends and I would have sleepover parties etc, I remember I always was the last one to fall asleep (often when everyone else was just waking up). The problem is that @ night I just can't sleep, it's the time of day that I just can't settle my head, and stop all those ideas from popping in, that drive me to continue my work.
At first I thought it was kinda kewl that I was getting all these neat ideas, but in all fairness it's destroying my day-time life, and my body just can't stay awake all the time. I would love if I could never sleep so I wouldnt' have to worry about things like this. But because I'm stuck with this stupid human body, I have to obey it's clock, and treat it as best as I can. But I'm stuck in the middle between my overly active mind, and my body. Sounds kinda funny that bit, lol
Has anyone else ever been in the same situation?, I would love to hear how you got it under control
Cheers,
;-phobos-)0
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That's a great feeling as you know that you are doing good but you certainly don't feel it. I haven't done it enough to cause problems but I just went with it and kept on as much as I could then my body naturally found its rythm. It seems like you have a job in the day so you have to be awake in the day. It may seem silly but try fooling your body into thinking that the night is day by getting sunlight lightbulbs. just a small idea.
But, I think that's great, inspiration comes to few so revel in it while you can. Eat right and exercise, who knows you may beat sleep eventually. 0 -
Certainly an interesting case! It appears to me that at some point in you life you were required to stay awake for a prolonged period into the night. I've done this and it can be difficult to break out of the habit of staying up late and sleeping the days away, you however never broke the habit!
You need to be really tough on yourself, force yourself to go to bed at reasonable hours. Its the only way you're going to break the cycle. Good luck, sooner you than me 0 -
I'm glad there are people here than can relate to my problem. But I think the biggest part of the problem is that I don't think it's a problem. I just think that it's crap that my body can't keep up. I'm a firm believer in deceiving the mind, and that sunlight bulb idea could be a good one, I'll look in to it. I have tried on several occasions to tell myself that I'm not tired, and to cop on to myself. I will drink coffee, heck I've even been known to place a few coffee granuals in my mouth and wash them down with coffee. Disguisting I know, but a stimulant at best. It's like my mind is trying it's best to keep my body awake, so it can carry on. When your body is awake you have control of your thoughts, but when you're asleep you don't. So my mind is kind of depandent on my body.
I don't look forward to sleep, I get anxious when I start to feel sleepy, and nearly try to work faster, to try and get as much in as possible before I do eventually drop. I have fallen asleep in the strangest of places as a result of this. The last time was about 2 weeks ago, while I was getting my hair cut!!. My barber had to give me a wee slap over the back of the head, and tell me to take a couple of days off. Now that's not good. Thankfully I'm not driving ATM, and rely on public transport.
I mentioned in my last post "stupid human body". I say this because I think that we are at a premature evolutionary stage, and there is a lot to come yet. While our minds are quite advanced, it's like our bodies are lagging behind. It's kinda like having cutting edge software and no hardware capeable of running it. It's probably a strange way of thinking, but from the mind of a programmer, it's nothing new
Keep it coming lads, I'm very interested in what you have to say. But make sure you don't go off topic, and backup your points, with a bit of a spiel. I hate answers like "Take some pills, or drink more coffee", because that's kind of obvious. Intelligent conversation is what's promoted here.
;-phobos-)0 -
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Because you want to finish your work, or you fear sleep?
Neither, because my work is never finished (I will always be working on something, or learning something new). I don't fear sleep, I just don't like it. I think it's a waste of time, because it's just used to boost your body's energy levels. Granted, if you never ever slept, you would probably go mad, so your mind needs the rest too. But not for bloody 6 - 8 hours of the day. That works out @, at lest 25% of your life doing nothing productive. Unless the answers to your problems are conjured in dreams of course, but what are the chances of you remembering.
Unregistered guy, your opinions are encouraged and welcome, but just remember that this is a serious thread. There will never be a possitive productive outcome from anything, if people don't take it seriously.likeing jib, cut there of
;-phobos-)0 -
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Originally posted by Dustaz
Phobos, take it from someone who knows, its NOT a good thing over an extended period.
I know it's not good Dustaz. I would like to get it under control, but I think my reasons for staying awake are psychological. I have led my life convincing myself, that sleep only get's in the way, and always wanted to find ways to counteract feeling tired. When I say all my life, I mean I have always thought that way, but it's not that I haven't slept at night all my life. There are really two things going on there. 1) My opinions of sleep, 2) When or How I can sleep.
The when or how part is hard to pin-point because I never know when I'm going to get this rush of inspriation, and want to stay awake. It's at that point all my ideas and thoughts, make the need for sleep their greatest enemy. I think it's quite interesting, and it's only a matter of time before science finds ways to trick the body in to thinking that it's OK. What ever effects that sleeping has on your body (I can guess, but cant give an educated guess), will hopefully be replaced in pill form, so you can still get all the things that sleep gives the body, but now without throwing 25%+ of your day away.
There would be psychological impacts on a product such as that, because not everybody would feel a need to stay awake. Psychological, meaning that a person who is not used to seeing day/night sessions pass by in numbers without sleeping, might not just carry on like everything is OK. It might be too much of a change for them in an instant. I for one, know that I could do it for longer periods of time. I know it is possible to have one nights sleep for every two working days, and feel OK (obviously not the best, but this is where medicine could come in). As I get older I think I'm getting worse, in that I don't seem to be able to last as long without sleep. BTW I'm only going on 22.
I think we will be seeing more and more of this type of behaviour in the future, because up until times like today, people wouldnt' have considered staying awake during the night hours. It makes you think, what changes will we want to make to ourselves, so we can better fit in with future trends, and what they might be. Things like that float around in my head all the time. :cool:
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Azezil, that is a very interesting quote, cheers for that. Where did you get it from?. Also what if were able to inhibit the development of Fos in the brain, we wouldn't feel tired. I understand the process of "house keeping", but what if we found alternative ways to do that. Just a suggestion. Yeah I would love if Bob came in here and shed some of his expertice
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;-phobos-)0 -
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The other night I wished I had themHave you considered sleeping tablets ?, but in all fairness I have known people to become addicted to them. I don't ever want to find myself addicted to some drug just so I can perform the same day to day routines as those who don't need them. I see them as a weakness in that respect.
On the otherhand here I am promoting the idea of a drug that can keep you awake (I'm not talking about MDMA, for the itchy finger smart asses out there). A person that takes sleeping pills obviously need to sleep at certain times, Eg. night, so they can be active during the day. But the world I'm trying to promote is where we don't need sleep at all, rendering the motive to take sleeping pills in the first place, useless
;-phobos-)0 -
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Hmmm, yes this all sounds very familiar...
Sometimes when I get engrosed in a project (or anything else vaguely interesting) - I seem to ignore all sleepy impulses and stay up until it's finished or until I can no longer function normaly.
Other times it just feels like some strange urge to stay awake and do something... anything... other than sleep.
Like right now for example - 4:21am and I'm knackered, I could fall asleep right now where I sit, but something drives me to stay awake.
If I had a bright idea of installing an extra OS, I would happily sit here until 4pm tomorrow installing and configuring it to perfection.
Fortunatly it's not as big a problem for me as it seems to be for Phobos, I like a good 9 hours of sleep, and haven't stayed awake for more than 35 hours at a time, but I know where you're coming from ... that resistance to sleep when you're awake, and the non-stop mind-chatter when you actually try to sleep.
My advise: Stop drinking caffinated drinks after 6pm.
Sleep is good, don't fight it
/me waddles off to bed0 -
I seem to have the same "problem" as well. I am also of the thinking that 6-8 hours is too much time to be asleep for. I think with a slight bit of mental control and will power it is well possible to work(not just stay awake) 17 hours a day and sleep for 5 hours. This is not just merely an opinion but a statement of fact. I have done this every summer for the last 5 years.
I am currently in college but in the 4 months of summer holidays I work for an agricultural contractor at home.
The typical day is about 14-15 hours long with about half an hour off for lunch. This is 7 days a week. However, twice during the summer, there is a 3 week period when the **** hits the fan (around mid-June and mid August) - most crops become ripe . We would start work at around 6 - 6:30 in the morning and would finish up at about 12-2 at night. Sometimes we would have to work through the night so on average it works out at doing 18 hour days for about 21 days.
The first week of this is nothing short of hell...nothing could prepare you for it. It is such a shock to the system that you end up trying to catch zzzs anywhere you can. One of our guys once just dropped down in a mucky field whilst is was pissing rain and just fell asleep. A farmer found him 3 hours later asleep and soaked to the bone. You go to bed at 1 in the morning and it seems like u have just lied down and it is 6am and time to get up again. No alarm clock in the world could wake u up. My father has to get me up. U try to eat breakfast but u end up puking it straight up again. You are mentally and physically exhausted.
However once the second week comes it starts to get easier and easier. By the time the 3rd week has come you are fully adjusted to the your new sleeping limits. You automatically awake at 6am fresh and fit. You even have enough energy to go out for a few pints Saturday night. Even when the chance arrives to sleep in you don't really feel like it. You would still get up at that time anyway. If u get a half day due to rain you become restless and don't know what to do with yourself.
Now I'm not saying that everyone should commit themselves to this type of work regime but it just proves what is possible with regards the mind and body. It is possible to work a 17 hour day on just 5 hours sleep and not walk around like a zombie. It is the sleeping pattern itself that you have to accomplish. Doing erratic working hours is nigh on impossible. You give your body no chance at getting into a rythym. Sometimes if I find that my body has got out of a sleeping pattern and I can't sleep I would drink a beer or two and sit by the fire and then doze off.
At college it's a completely different story. I get up at around 2 in the day, arse around til about 9 o'clock and then start coding til about 5 in the morning. I just don't feel like doing anything during the day. I don't know if it is the case that there is too much distractions during the day or what but I never do my best work til about 12 at night. Its quite, nothing on TV, no one to annoy you. I think it is a problem that is indictative to programmers. It is about the only job so far where your work is totally mental and to a large extent done alone without hardly any interaction with other people. When u get into that feeling where everything is going great and the code is flying out it is very hard to stop. You find yourself saying "I'll just try this one thing now and see if it works". Then it works and you want to see if another little tweak will work and so on. It gets to the stage where you don't see it as work but more of a challenge that you must overcome at all costs. A program can always be made better. You can always see things that could be done better. So, the very nature of the work lends itself to an erratic working day and night.
So, solutions....I don't really know. I just tend to go with the flow. When I'm tired I sleep, otherwise I sit at the computer. This is not good for lecture attendance however. So this semester I have started to just force myself to go to bed at a reasonable hour. I would play a couple of games of quake or read a book to get the eyes tired and then the brain tends to follow and I'll go to bed and get up the next morning middlin early for lectures. Doesn't always work but its one solution. Another solution is to get into some sorta of regular excercise regime. Nothing serious, maybe a short run or jog at the same time every day. Stick to the same time and try to work the rest of your day around that. You would soon tend to get into a regular sleep pattern. Its all about working around a regime as strict as you can. You can survive on 5 hours a night but you must make sure that it is the same everynight and not 3 hours one night and 10 hours the next.
Another theory( well fact I suppose) about sleep is the REM pattern. The way I picked it up anyway is that REM starts every 2 hours or so. If you can work your waking up time to be at the end of the REM time you can get up a lot easier and and feel fresher as well. If you try to wake up when your REM is starting it is very hard to get up and u never feel right for the day. I could have that arseways now but I think that is the jist of it.
Anyways, it's 5am and I'm still up hacking my FYP so I better get back to it. 0 -
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You need to get away from your computer, chill out a bit. You don't need to be 'on' or 100% productive all your waking hours, you'll just burn out, quickly.
You'd be surprised what you find if you just take a step back and relax a little. Go out to the countryside on a nice day and take it all in, the plants the animals, the whole lot. It's nice to get out into a natural environment every now and then. Take a break from programming.
It might even make you a better programmer, samurai warrriors used to practice a whole range of completely unrelated tasks such as gardening and flower arranging to become better warriors.
You've got the rest of your life to write code, there's no hurry.
chillax
Oh and on the whole sleeping tablets thing, try a glass of warm milk and some soothing music (I use tracks 6, 9 and 10 on Daft Punk - Discovery).
Failing that you can get herbal sleeping pills that really do work. No adverse effects and they're only about 5 quid. Over the counter too. Try your local chemist.
Stop what you're doing an hour or two before you want to go to sleep, your brain needs time to relax a bit. Read a book or something. Get a Dilbert or Calvin & Hobbes book or something that doesn't take much brain power to read
Wait till you get a job anyways, you're not gonna have this problem then 0 -
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I have (kind of) the same problem. The computer is in my room, but without a net connection, so I can steer clear of IRC. That's one down. Normally I'd watch some telly until about 1am (Voyager :rolleyes: ), but if turn it on once I go upstairs, I'm screwed. Whether it's attempting to configure something in Linux, or programming, I can be up til all hours. When I first installed Linux, I got 4 hours (nonconcurrent) sleep over 72, and then collapsed on the 4th day(into bed). I think certainly not having a net connection is a bit of a godsend, 'cos if I hit a snag, that's it. I can try solve it for a while, but I have to wait until I get into college to probe for answers on the net, so I go to bed.
I'm the same with everything. I get less productive work done in the morning and, always more done at night. The best studying I've done over the last 2 weeks was while lying in bed at 1 am and studying til 3. I just can't do any study in the morning, and I've met loads of others like that, so I think it's just the way you're built.
Luckily for me, I can gauge my sleep patterns, which means I can go to bed for any multiple of 2 hours (ideally 4) and get up, feeling fine. Something to do with drifting in and out of heavy/lght sleeping durig the night. Also once I stay up past 5am, I can only get 2 hours of sleep at any time.
Just to clarify - Yes I do get tired all of the time, and yes most days I stay in bed till 11, but it doesn't bother me, becuase I am being far more productive than I would be with normal patterns.
My only suggestion is not to turn on the comp when you are going to bed - move where it is - into the shed or something!! And go to the gym once a day. Exercise always corrects my sleep pattern, funnilly enough.
A warning - A son of a friend of my father's dropped dead last year. He was junior doctor, who they reckon had done at least 55 hours straight in the hospital. He was in perfect health, but died of heart failure at 25. The only thing they could come up with was that his brain literally 'forgot' to keep his heart beating, because of sleep deprivation.
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Oh So many excellent replies, and so little time to reply myselfOriginally posted by Enygma
You need to get away from your computer, chill out a bit. You don't need to be 'on' or 100% productive all your waking hours, you'll just burn out, quickly.
You'd be surprised what you find if you just take a step back and relax a little. Go out to the countryside on a nice day and take it all in, the plants the animals, the whole lot. It's nice to get out into a natural environment every now and then. Take a break from programming.
It might even make you a better programmer, samurai warrriors used to practice a whole range of completely unrelated tasks such as gardening and flower arranging to become better warriors.
You've got the rest of your life to write code, there's no hurry.
chillax
Right I totally agree with you there, about taking a break, and doing different things from time to time. I'm also a Dj, and have a regular slot while in college playing to students every wed night. I originally got in to Djing not just because I was in to the whole music scene, but also to have an escape mechanism for my "was" very unhealthy computing patterns. People are probably reading this and thinking "He's bloody bad now". When I was in my late teens I became physically ill, with a serious need to unplug, but didn't want to at any cost. My outlook from that perspective has changed to a degree. But you mentioned that I've always got the rest of my life to write code. The way I look at it, if I take a break, think of all the work, I could have gotten done, that I wouldn't get done, by wasting my time doing something else. I use the word "wasting", because I don't class anything besides friends/family/computers/programming as important. I am quite narrow minded in that respect. But as I have gotten older, I've started to let go from my strict ways a small bit at a time.
My interests and hobbies take over my life soooo much, which I personally don't have a problem with. I socialise with my friends, and do the things they like to do, as another way to unplug. But I remember someone asking me before, would I prefer to got out clubbing on a Sat night with my bird, or would I prefer stay in and write code. By now you should know which option I went with.
That's scary stuff, and the way I look at that as a weakness in the human body, and the quicker we can find ways to improve it "physically" the better. That could be in the form of augmentation etc, using the power of technology in conjunction with the human brain, and body. When someone tells me that, that's just the way the human body is, and you can't escape from it. What goes through my head is that, I can't escape from it, but I could research improving it.A warning - A son of a friend of my father's dropped dead last year. He was junior doctor, who they reckon had done at least 55 hours straight in the hospital. He was in perfect health, but died of heart failure at 25. The only thing they could come up with was that his brain literally 'forgot' to keep his heart beating, because of sleep deprivation.
My whole life I've spent pondering ideas that spawn of an infinite number of possibilities. I think it's something special that everyone can do and has, but they chose to handle it differently. For me I don't want to waste any time, ignoring it. To some, I might sound a little mad, but it's something that I am quite passionate about in the end.
Keep the responses rolling in. But just remember at this stage I'm not looking for ideas on how to sleep. I know methods (music, drinks, correct environmental settings, etc) that I can use to my advantage in order to fall asleep. But want I would like to further ponder is the notion of not wanting to fall asleep, and why people would want to do that. Think ahead...;)
;-phobos-)0 -
well i try meditation, what you do is you lay on your back, arms by your side and you listen to your breadthing...
then you imagine a light mine is orange, pushing up through your feet, you ahve to actually see it, so in getting this to happen you are concentrating so hard your mind is going blank...
bring it up to your head but to be honest i never get past my naval, the down side here which i fear will happen to you is your mind is so clear everthing that has been in your mind becaoms solved and like you you ahve to get up to solve it!
but i does work, promice 0 -
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