about ISDN

stormkeeper

I'm just after talking to one of my mum's friends and he says that you pay twice the going rate* if you make a call on it. He has ISDN himself and rarely ever uses it due to this... Anyone have any thoughts or comments on this?

ie: if a standard call costs 1 old pence a minute on 56k, it costs 2p/min on 64k ISDN and 4p/min on 128k (I could be wrong about this figure)

misterq

Kind of.

Eircom Hi-Speed ISDN gives you two "channels" or lines.
If you are making a voice call, then you are only using one channel. The cost is the same as from an ordinary line.

If you are making internet connection, you can connect at either of two speeds (so long as your ISP supports it):
64k access, using 1 channel costs the same as an ordinary call
128k access uses both channels, you are charged the same as if making 2 calls.

I only ever connect on both channels when I need to download stuff etc. I rarely use it during daytime.

The line rental is also quite expensive, but has come down in price.

Ronan

infomat

Originally posted by Kennett
I'm just after talking to one of my mum's friends and he says that you pay twice the going rate* if you make a call on it. He has ISDN himself and rarely ever uses it due to this... Anyone have any thoughts or comments on this?

ie: if a standard call costs 1 old pence a minute on 56k, it costs 2p/min on 64k ISDN and 4p/min on 128k (I could be wrong about this figure)

I wonder why he got ISDN in the first place?

Anyway he is talking a load of rubbish.

When I was dumped by Esat NoLimits I got ISDN installed and really like it. Up until now you paid rental which was greater than the rental for two analogue lines but usage cost was exactly the same (however if you used two channels at the same time you paid as if you were using telephone lines). This month the rental has been reduced and a two channel (ignoring the D channel) ISDN connection has a lower rental charge than two analogue channels. Note there is also a slight reduction if you go for a deal where you pay a slightly higher rental and get 13 hours free (I can't remember the exact terms so you will need to check with Eircom).

Kristok

First your going to have to pay something like an extra (old money) £13 a month line rental. this is sorta fine as you have two lines now. You have two lines then so if you want to connect at 64k then that costs the same as 56k dial up 1p a min. If you want 128k ie. Using both 64k lines as one then you have to pay twice that 2p a min. Another little note is if you use eircom to connect then unless you want to pay another £14 a month for a subscirption account then you can only connect at 64k.

Orignal bill + £13 extra line rental + £14 a month for a eircom subscription account + Double call charges = 128k isdn.
Cost £25 a month + Double call charges

Orignal bill + call charges = 56k dial up.
Savings of £25 a month + Call charges

So save £25 a month and stay connected twice as long on dial up.

This all leads to ISDN being very xpensive for what is a bad and no more reliable service. The only thing isdn has going for it is that its quick to connect but weighing that against the high cost its not even remotly worth it. And if anyone calls ISDN High Speed then i cant be held responsible for my actions.

strat

sorry for the off topicness of this but..

i have isdn and i eigned up for the 13 hours for another free €'s

what numebr shood i be dialing for this - is it off peak only ??

thanks

yes im lazy

infomat

Originally posted by Kristok
First your going to have to pay something like an extra (old money) £13 a month line rental. this is sorta fine as you have two lines now. You have two lines then so if you want to connect at 64k then that costs the same as 56k dial up 1p a min. If you want 128k ie. Using both 64k lines as one then you have to pay twice that 2p a min. Another little note is if you use eircom to connect then unless you want to pay another £14 a month for a subscirption account then you can only connect at 64k.

Orignal bill + £13 extra line rental + £14 a month for a eircom subscription account + Double call charges = 128k isdn.
Cost £25 a month + Double call charges

Orignal bill + call charges = 56k dial up.
Savings of £25 a month + Call charges

So save £25 a month and stay connected twice as long on dial up.

This all leads to ISDN being very xpensive for what is a bad and no more reliable service. The only thing isdn has going for it is that its quick to connect but weighing that against the high cost its not even remotly worth it. And if anyone calls ISDN High Speed then i cant be held responsible for my actions.

This is a total distortion of the facts .... ISDN is not more expensive than analogue and it could be argued that it is now less expensive since this month when Eircom introduced some price reductions.

There is also an additional high speed bonus whereby you get 13 hours connect time for Euro 1.66 (I can't remember the exact details but the discount on my last bill amounted to Euro 8.36).

The monthly rental for my analogue line is 16.20 per month (as billed this month)
The monthly rental for my ISDN line (two 64K channels) is 30.99 per month (according to this month's bill ... this has reduced from 36.82 per month). This is slightly less than two analogue lines (I have also heard that the rental for analogue lines is due to increase).

I use two free ISPS (one being UTV) and I do not get charged extra if I use both channels at the same time but I must admit that I do not use the dual channel option very often because one 64K channel is usually sufficient.

The cost of upgrading your existing line to ISDN is the same as getting a second analogue line (often there are special offers) however you do have the additional cost of adding what is often called an "ISDN MODEM" but they are alsmost as inexpensive as ordinary modems.

Before I switched from analogue it often took me 30 minutes or more to connect and the speeds obtained were often painfully slow and every so often the connection dropped. With ISDN I get through first attempt and I have never had a problem with dropped connections.

The double bill argument is just plain silly ... using both channels is the same (costwise) as making two phone calls on two different analogue lines and the cost is exactly the same. Why anyone should consider this a problem is beyond me.

Having ISDN is less expensive than having two analogue lines ... this is now a fact.
Many households find that they need two lines otherwise if someone is using the Internet voice calls cannot be received or made and this can be a real pain. Upgrading to ISDN is a better solution to getting an extra analogue line.

Over the years I have had a constant battle with Eircom (I had to wait five years for ISDN) but in my opinion ISDN is excellent and the quality of service is much superior. I would never return to analogue if I could avoid doing so.

In case anyone is wondering why I still have an analogure line ... I kept it because I was hoping to get ADSL.

Kristok

Infomat in what way do you think in distorting facts?

I'm trying to make the point that it’s a very expensive service that could cost a hell of a lot just for an extra 1 or 2 k per channel and quicker connect speeds. I'm just pointing out that the advantages weighed against the disadvantages are pathetic.

I don’t want to turn into a Ericom hater here but what im trying to say is that if you do connect through Eircom and use their service that you could end up paying through the nose for that extra 1 or 2 k per channel.

You said yourself that you need to keep a PSTN line incase ADSL is released. So anyone looking for ADSL should be aware that this will require some thought because as seen in many other countries, Telco’s are unwilling in most cases to change an ISDN line over to ADSL because of the extra effort it would take on their behalf.

I know one person happy with ISDN but I also know 20 more who would never even consider it as an option. Its an old technology that has been outdated by newer FASTER and far more reliable services.

Vincent

kristok isdn is cheaper than two analogue lines. You dont need an eircom subscription a/c. There is plenty of free isps that connect at 64k and 128k. I only use 64k so the price of call is same as 56k. Isdn rental plus the free 13hour deal works out a few euro cheaper than having 2 analogue lines which i used to have. If you only use one line and dont play games or need an extra 2/3k download per second i would say it's not worth the bother, but if you have two lines of course it's better. And yes i know it's outdated etc but i it will be few years before any kinda broadband gets to me.

Btw: isdn 64k = 7.5k/sec miniumn (unless dl'in from busy server)
isdn 128k = 15k/sec minumn (unless dlin from busy server)

Ping on asuscom pci TA: 20-30 in dos to local game servers
28ms in qw, 48ms in quake3, 30-40ms to decent cs server

infomat

Originally posted by Kristok
Infomat in what way do you think in distorting facts?


You said yourself that you need to keep a PSTN line incase ADSL is released. So anyone looking for ADSL should be aware that this will require some thought because as seen in many other countries, Telco’s are unwilling in most cases to change an ISDN line over to ADSL because of the extra effort it would take on their behalf.

I know one person happy with ISDN but I also know 20 more who would never even consider it as an option. Its an old technology that has been outdated by newer FASTER and far more reliable services.

When ADSL becomes available Eircom will be more than willing to convert an ISDN connection to ADSL but the catch is that they first need to discontinue the ISDN service prior to testing it for ADSL and if it fails you will be charged again for restoring the ISDN service. But, basically you are correct anyone considering ISDN should delay any decision until ADSL becomes available.

I did not keep my analogue line because Eircom would not convert it to ADSL ... I intend to subscribe to both services. The reason I kept it is that as I live in an apartment in Dublin 1 additional telephone lines are very difficult to get.

Regarding your comparison of ISDN and analogue You are coming at this from the wrong angle. If someone has a requirement for two communication channels they have two options at present ... they can get two analogue connections or one ISDN connection as the ISDN option is now the less expensive option and believe me the overall quality of service is better even forgetting data throughput.

I have never managed to get anything approaching 56k on an analogue line, if you are you are very fortunate.

Kristok

The fact is that allot of people with isdn are sold a service that is suppose to be the next level of internet connection. When they find out that there current ISP wont give them 128k without paying extra they sign up for the extra cost. I know UTV internet does provide 128k access for free but the point im trying to make is that most people dont know this and they get subscription accounts with Eircom. The fact is that Eircom is the largest ISP for private use in ireland and an awfull lot of people who do get ISDN get the Subscription connection to get the 128k.

I just think this 13 hour thing is a con. Why could they not reduce the price by a simular ammount ?!? Its just another way of getting the money out of us.

I understand that some ppl will pay anything to get better pings in Quake etc and if thats the case I understand where your comming from but I really cant understand if its just to get that 1 or 2 k boost in speed which really is notgoing to make the much of a difference.

Ps do any of you guys with isdn remember how long it took to get the line installed in the first place ? A guy I know waited weeks and weeks and it kept getting pushed back to different dates before he eventually got it installed and this was for a business. What happens when you need them to come out and remove ISDN then get another dept to come back to test and install ADSL ? Months and months of more waiting.

Ok Ok seems that im gonna be beaten into submission by ppl with isdn but I think that before getting ISDN anyone considering it should make sure there getting it for the second line and not for the speed because they will be disapointed very quickly

Vincent

kristok just like to point again that just about every free isp offers 128k connects. So if people get an eircom sub a/c thinking that they need it to get 128k thats their own fault. So i think you should leave the whole having to sign up to eircom for a sub a/c out of the argument.

Kristok

Im not saying you have to get and eircom sub acq im saying that it can and does work out very expensive for allot of people who have ISDN because they do have this account.

Is ISDN worth the money ? If it is then why do so few people get it ? The extra cost for such a slight improvement is not what people want. Most people dont need the extra line and for those who do it might work out better than a second line but for those who dont its just a very xpensive product that 10 years ago could have been good but these days its just another example of how far behind the rest of europe we are when a product so old is marketed as High Speed and we Irish actually believe the hype.

infomat

Originally posted by Kristok
The fact is that allot of people with isdn are sold a service that is suppose to be the next level of internet connection. When they find out that there current ISP wont give them 128k without paying extra they sign up for the extra cost. I know UTV internet does provide 128k access for free but the point im trying to make is that most people dont know this and they get subscription accounts with Eircom. The fact is that Eircom is the largest ISP for private use in ireland and an awfull lot of people who do get ISDN get the Subscription connection to get the 128k.

I just think this 13 hour thing is a con. Why could they not reduce the price by a simular ammount ?!? Its just another way of getting the money out of us.


Ok Ok seems that im gonna be beaten into submission by ppl with isdn

There is one comment that I cannot really argue with ...

"I think that before getting ISDN anyone considering it should make sure there getting it for the second line and not for the speed because they will be disapointed very quickly... "

I am not trying to beat you into submission but I certainly feel that you are drawing conclusions based on incorrect information and with each posting you are shifting the argument slightly.

Based on your arguments I get the distinct impression that you are not in fact an ISDN subscriber ... if you are how long did you wait for your installation and why do you consider the service to be bad and unreliable.


Before I continue I should say that I do believe that Eircom are misleading people by referring to the service as high speed or broadband.

You stated in your original message "This all leads to ISDN being very xpensive for what is a bad and no more reliable service."
I did not agree with this and still do not because ISDN as offered by Eircom is not a bad service and is not unreliable when compared with analogue.

Claiming that ISDN is expensive is equivalent to claiming that a double analogue connection is expensive and depending upon your point of view this may be true but you cannot claim that ISDN is more expensive than analogue because it is not.

You also stated "The fact is that Eircom is the largest ISP for private use in ireland and an awfull lot of people who do get ISDN get the Subscription connection to get the 128k. " I am not convinced that this is true and would like to know your source ... please don't tell me that you know 20 people who did this. I know many people who are very happy with ISDN and did not make the mistake that you describe above.

Next quote "I just think this 13 hour thing is a con. Why could they not reduce the price by a simular ammount ?!? Its just another way of getting the money out of us." This depends upon your point of view but it is a well established marketing trick and it is no different from McDonalds getting you to upgrade to a large size Coke or Meal for a few extra cents. Possibly it is no different to computer magazines charging extra for "free" cover discs full of software that I don't want.

What do I have to say about the following quote?

"Ps do any of you guys with isdn remember how long it took to get the line installed in the first place ? A guy I know waited weeks and weeks and it kept getting pushed back to different dates before he eventually got it installed and this was for a business. What happens when you need them to come out and remove ISDN then get another dept to come back to test and install ADSL ? Months and months of more waiting. "

About seven years ago I applied for ISDN and five years later I was still waiting. I cancelled my application so there is no doubt that up until a year or two ago it was very difficult to get ISDN.

Sometime last year I was dumped by Esat No Limits so I decided to try again to get ISDN. I applied Friday evening and it was installed by 11am on Monday. After I had ISDN installed a number of friends applied for the service and all were upgraded within ten days (this is not bad).


Regarding testing the line for ADSL ... no one needs to go near your house the process is totally automatic using testheads installed at the exchanges (it is possible to test thousands of lines per hour). In practice, when ADSL is introduced the salesperson can set up a request for a linetest and the results will be returned within minutes.

Kristok

I am not arguing that ISDN is crap im arguing the price of ISDN is not worth the advantages. Im not arguing that its more expensive than two PSTN lines either and this was never my point and I would not want to make it. What im trying to highlight is the fact that most people dont need two lines and get ISDN for the speed. And its the speed which I argue with.

As for my statment that eircom is the largest ISP in ireland for home use this is something i recently read and it is by a fairly decent amount from what i remember. So what happens when someone calls up asking why they cant connect at 128k ? the operator tells the customer that they need to contact eircom net. then the eircom net guy tells them they need a sub account. At no point does the customer know or is even told that UTV internet or anyone else can provide this service for free so they sign up thinking its the only choice. Some may say that if they dont know better its their own fault but most people using the net or even ISDN dont know that much about it and take the word af sales people as gospol. So when I factor in the cost of the sub account im doing so just to highlight the fact that there are allot of ISDN people who are on a sub account paying extra. Im not blaming the eircom sales people there doing their job but it does happen.

Oh and yes I did slightly shift my argument with each post but only because I was trying to clerify what I already said and I got pulled a bit off course.

I just feel very strongly that ISDN is a stop gap technology that is past its sell by date and its very frustrating to see it being advertised as High Speed and even in some cases Broadband.

My bottom line is that unless you are already considering a second line then ISDN is not worth the money because that what your really paying for.

Redshift

I too had ISDN installed within Days of ordering it and I know its not broadband but I have it and I think its significantly better than 56K.
As for reliability my ISDN has been faultless since I got it and I never get dropped connections anymore.

Cheers
Redshift

BKtje

In fairness to Eircom, if you ring them looking for 128k access.
They aint gonna send u away to their competetor. It wouldnt make business sense to tell ppl of other isps when u can charge them for yours.

I applied for ISDN 12 months ago and had it installed within 2 weeks. I love my isdn mainly cos i get decent pings to everywhere and if i dont i just switch ISP which will usually give me an acceptable one. The cost is a down side however

Gaidin

I have isdn but there is only 1 cable socket in the back of my isdn modem. there are 2 sockets in the phone box on the wall. i can connect at 64k or 128k but i still only get 64k speeds . do i need 2 sockets at the back of my modem to get 128k speeds??? sum1 help me please. im stuck with pings of around 150ms.

Dr.Seagull

u only need one cable to connect at 128 kbs u have to set it up in windows read the manual for the ta that should tell u how

and also latency and bandwidth are 2 differnt things your ping will not be lower if u use 128k what u need to do is use oceanfree
i get 50ish pings to irish servers on 64k connected to oceanfree
another problem could be u got the usb ta from eircom which gives crap pings in that case u will need to buy a good internal ta they arnt expensive i got mine from www.marx-computers.com

BKtje

128k wont change ur pings just how much you can dload. Ie in games u will prob get slightly less lag.

One socket is all you need in the back of your card, the box will automatically use the 2 lines when joined through the one cable.

Are you sure your ISP is able to handle 128k or if your modem is? (never heard of one that doesnt but thought id ask).
Also 150ms is quite high but i suppose it depends on your ISP,modem and where server is.

Ping statistics for 195.149.21.125:
Packets: Sent = 4, Received = 4, Lost = 0 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 40ms, Maximum = 40ms, Average = 40ms

Thats a Jolt UK server. i realise thats not a game ping but ping it and see what ya get to see wether its the game or your connection.