Do any of the parties plan to take Ireland out of the euro?

photty

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine
Ireland on the other hand has High-Skill shortages. In a true economic union the unemployed High-skilled workers in France adn Gerany would travel to Ireland and take the job vacancies. Thus being mobile and proventing Cost-Push inflation taking hold and lowering Irish competitivness....

Slightly off topic but which alternate reality is that Ireland in? Just the other day a mate of mine went for an interview for an embedded sw job and was offered 20 euro an hour for the contract. The job sites list the same jobs month after month. Theres plenty of highly skilled people around who just can't get the work in IT/SW/dare I say it.. telecoms. Employers are starting to take the piss a bit really but then again didn't we when the times were good?

Meh

Originally posted by Typedef
Please don't bang the structural fund drum, the drum that spews the same old progaganda about Ireland being a suck on Europe, because it's just not true.

So the EU hasn't given billions of euros to this country? Those blue and gold flags you see on every bypass in the country don't have anything to do with Brussels?

The CAP actually prohibits development of the Irish farming industry, by paying Irish farmers 'not' to produce, and of course the EU dictates how much it thinks our farmers 'would' be able to produce if the EU let them. Ireland has the sixth largest dariy industry in the world and I would postulate that without having to operate within the restrictions of the CAP Ireland would most likely be an even bigger agri player.

I agree with you that the CAP sucks, and should be scrapped as soon as possible. Irish farmers have benefited from it; but Irish consumers haven't.

Take the fishing of Irish waters by Spanish fishermen, even if you don't accept the figure of €14 billion worth of fish being extracted from Irish seas each year since 1973 by the Spanish and put the figure at a pithe €1 billion, that still amounts to €29 billion as opposed to the €20 billion in structural funds Ireland has recieved since ascession to the EU.

That figure may be accurate, but I doubt that Irish fisherman would have extracted anywhere near €29 billion worth of fish from Irish seas. Ireland has a relatively small fishing industry compared to Spain. So Ireland hasn't lost this €29 billion; we wouldn't have been able to exploit it in the first place.

Typedef

That figure may be accurate, but I doubt that Irish fisherman would have extracted anywhere near €29 billion worth of fish from Irish seas.

Utter nonesense Meh. As I point out below Ireland is allowed only 4% of the catches under the Common Fisheries policy, whilst having 11% of the water. And yes I do contend that if the EU were not dictating to Ireland the amount of Ireland's own fish stocks that can be exploited to Irelands benefit, that Ireland could quite easily invest in (n) fishing boats such that Ireland might extract the billions from Irish waters that other EU nations are currently expoliting.

Why would you contend that Irish fishsermen couldn't extract just as much fish from Irish fishing waters if the EU weren't dictating how much Ireland can exploit it's own natural resources? Is there some etheral reason Irish fishermen are incapable of performing this task?

Postulate, get loan from IMF, buy fishing boats, fish Irish fishing waters to their full extent, make money selling fish on European markets, why would this be beyond the scope or abilities of Irish fishermen?

http://www.rte.ie/news/2001/0619/fisheries.html

Despite owning 11% of total waters within the European Community, the European Union's Common Fisheries Policy only allows Ireland 4% of catches. This inequity is a result of accession negotiations in the Seventies and is at the root of Ireland's fishing industry problems. European Union partner countries take an estimated £200m of fish from Irish waters every year, but they are neither willing to give up on those huge earnings nor to allow Irish fishermen to take more fish from Irish waters.

So umm excuse me Ireland is allowed 4% of catches from a total sea area of 11%. Added to which Irish farmers a paid 'not to produce', and who is to say 'how big' the Irish farming industry would be without dictats from the EU on what it will and won't pay for what 'it' estimates Irish agricultural potential to produce is?

No no, too often this drum of structural funding is banged, mostly by the Germans and Dutch, who envy the robustness of the Irish tiger economy, and too often is it forgotten that there is a trade off as Ireland agrees to curtail agricultural activity and agrees to take a paupers share of our own natural resources.

Quid pro quo.

Meh

Originally posted by Typedef
Utter nonesense Meh. As I point out below Ireland is allowed only 4% of the catches under the Common Fisheries policy, whilst having 11% of the water. And yes I do contend that if the EU were not dictating to Ireland the amount of Ireland's own fish stocks that can be exploited to Irelands benefit, that Ireland could quite easily invest in (n) fishing boats such that Ireland might extract the billions from Irish waters that other EU nations are currently expoliting.

I agree. Without EU quotas, Irish fishermen would have made a lot more money. But to say that Spain has taken €29 billion (a figure which isn't supported by the RTE article you quoted, by the way) out of the pockets of Irish fisherman is pure speculation.

You win some, you lose some. On balance, EU membership is beneficial for this country.

smiles

Unfortunately the Savings Scheme is not encouraging enough people to save, quite obviously if the scheme is designed to curb inflation, it hasn't worked. In years gone by, before our benavolent leaders decided to experiment with this country's economy to participate in the Euro, the interest rates would have been reset by the Irish Central Bank. Problem solved.

Excuse my assumptions, but it seems that you've some grudge against the current government and you cannot see the good in anything that they do, or am I mistaken?

Mostly the EU exists to prevent another war in Europe. Why must this country suffer economically so that mainland European country's can stop their own petty squabbeling?

Actually, the United Nations was set up to do that. The EC was set up to help that, but it did evolve along the way to focus on economic union, and to encourage the growth of all the countries.

Please don't bang the structural fund drum, the drum that spews the same old progaganda about Ireland being a suck on Europe, because it's just not true. The CAP actually prohibits development of the Irish farming industry, by paying Irish farmers 'not' to produce, and of course the EU dictates how much it thinks our farmers 'would' be able to produce if the EU let them. Ireland has the sixth largest dariy industry in the world and I would postulate that without having to operate within the restrictions of the CAP Ireland would most likely be an even bigger agri player.

If there was no CAP then Irish farmers would be totally out of the market as they are incredibly inefficient and are easily undercut by other countries. I agree that *some* of the aspects of it need to be reviewed, but i'm not blindsighted enough to just throw away the good with the bad because of some anti-European sentiments.

Here is the crunch for me. I don't care if the Europeans want to drop bombs on each other, really, let them, that is why I don't see merit in European political Union, yes I accept that free trade is a benefit to Ireland, whilst quite clearly the political element is damaging to the Irish economy and ultimately through farces like the re-run of the Nice referendum damaging to Irish democracy and Sovereignty.

You see some of have problems with accepting the results of a referendum that had virtually no turn out and did not represent the sentiments and wishes of the majority of the country.

Free trade is good, but without a stable currency to sustain it then our economy would not be able to keep up. You think that being part of the Euro means that we're preventing bombs from dropping on Europe, dont make me laugh! Are you so caught up with your "I want Ireland to be independant" that your judgement is that clouded?

I think Ireland should follow the example of the UK and Sweden, back track a little bit, and ceceed from the Euro. The Euro is not good for the Irish economy, it is a political experiment, an experiment Ireland need not participate in to the detrament of Irish people and the standards of living of Irish citizens like me.

The Euro, surprise surprise, is a little bit more than a "political experiment", it removes the disincentives of trade between us and the rest of Europe, ie. if exchange rates changed after a deal had been agreed then a company could lose all of it's profits, or at least cut them sharply, and since we do so much trade within Europe this is most definitly a good thing. And there are many more good effects that I wont insult your intelligence by outlining. Yes, we have high inflation, but i've already pointed out my reasoning behind the majority of it, yes the Euro changeover has caused some of it, but it's you who's jumping on the bandwagon here.

A friend of mine traveled to Scotland and back in December of last year for IRL£20 with RyanAir. I can probably proove this if need be.

I do believe that I said "in a few years time", yes, flights are cheap now, I agree in deregulation of the air ports, yet I can also see the point in not just handing over the countries assets to one independant body, see the problems we have with Eircom's control of the telecommunications infrastructure.

Clearly if compnies who dig up the road for reason (n) and fill it in are held accountable for the work done, the state will not have to take on the burdon of resurfacing the roads to fix botched refilling jobs and can divert resources to fixing the scandelously delapaded roads around the hinterland of the greater Dublin Area.

And what about the rest of Ireland?

Personally I disagree with PPPs, I think that there should be a small increase in tax on petrol and disel and that would easily and quickly collect the money for the improved infrastructure that we need, something similar to the plastic bag tax -- the money is guaranteed to go directly towards repairing and building roads, instead of all the bloody tolls that are proposed.

I'd like the economy to be based on economics instead of Federalist Socio-Political experiments.

I can see your point, and yet I do believe there is more than a small dose of economics at play in our current economy.

Then again my ideal would be a situation where there would be an elected independant group of economic advisors who form a committee who decide the future of the economy and that their decisions should be entirely cut off from Politics. And yet that would destroy the basis of politics at all, if they dont have control of the economy what can they control?

And I've noticed that in your reply you made no reference to the changes you want done to the interest rates to correct the inflation problems.... is it that you dont actually know and that you simply like harping along with the idea that the government is out to get us all, and that they really dont want this country to do well? :rolleyes:

<< Fio >>

Typedef

Excuse my assumptions, but it seems that you've some grudge against the current government and you cannot see the good in anything that they do, or am I mistaken?

No you are quite mistaken, but that is hardly relevant to this topic.

Actually, the United Nations was set up to do that. The EC was set up to help that, but it did evolve along the way to focus on economic union, and to encourage the growth of all the countries.

Come now, the main impetus behind the establishment of the EEC at the time was to prevent another war engulfing Europe.

If there was no CAP then Irish farmers would be totally out of the market.

No that is utter nonesense, historically Ireland has had a big agrigultural industry, even when Ireland was still governed by Britian, Ireland was ostensibly an agri nation. The way the CAP operates now, benefits the likes of the French much more then it ever has or ever will the Irish, this is fact and essentially the EU decides how much it thinks Ireland 'might' be able to produce and then pays Irish farms not to produce it. Never mind the fact the CAP is a major contributory factor in the economic depraviation of African nations, I don't actually believe that it is good for Irish industry and whats more, I find it really boring when people continuously band on about how incompetent or how incompetent they imagine anything Irish is. Good god it's a wonder we ever got down from the trees with the attitudes towards this country it's own citizens have. At any given opportunity they jump on the band wagon, "If it's Irish, it's crap" and "thanks to the EU for making the Tiger economy", nonsense thanks the the damned hard working Irish worker for doing that and thanks to nameless civil servants in the Departments of Finance, Trade and Employment and a host of others over the last 20 years guiding Macro economic development.

as they are incredibly inefficient and are easily undercut by other countries.

Sorry do you have any evidence to support this, or is it just some mindless anti-Irish sentiment, I mean I realise anti-Irishness is popular abroad with our European partners, but is it really so rampant here?

I agree that *some* of the aspects of it need to be reviewed, but i'm not blindsighted enough to just throw away the good with the bad because of some anti-European sentiments.

Good, are you so blindsighted that you refuse to accept that perhaps Irish economic success stems from hard work by the Irish and prudent economic managment and that success really casts aspersions on the tired old mantra levied at this nation about laziness ,etc,etc,etc and a whole host a blindly racist and jaundiced attitudes. You display that attitude yourself when you call Irish farmers "incredibly inefficient", do you actually know they are such that you can prove it or do you just extoll the general pigheadedness that seems popular, that if it's Irish it must be crap. I realise from a very early age this general lie is drummed into most Irish people, but if you look at how well the country is doing after so many years of misrule and post colonial economic collapse, I personally think the Irish have more then most a damn lot to be proud of.

You see some of have problems with accepting the results of a referendum that had virtually no turn out

You are accusing me of that? Excuse me, but the referendum has been run and because the government didn't get it's result, the referendum is being forced to plebiscite again. I can accept when the people I vote for don't get into power, because that is democracy, but when people start to prorouge that same mechanism, you open a pandora's box that you may never get closed.

and did not represent the sentiments and wishes of the majority of the country.

By who's criteria? Yours? The electorate had the opportunity to vote and those who chose to did, who are you to decide on a magic number that must vote before you will consider the result valid or representative? I voted, what are you trying to tell me, that my vote doesn't count, because you say not enough people voted, when quite obviously if 1 person had voted and the government had got it's result, this entire issue would be buried? Tell me is that the sort of country you want to build? It's certainly not the sort I want to.

Free trade is good, but without a stable currency to sustain it then our economy would not be able to keep up.

The currecny is anciallary to free trade, the introduction of the currecny has introduced unacceptable levels of inflation into this economy, the introduction of the currency was a political move, not an economic one and tha political move is costing Ireland economically. Why must the EU be turned into a Federal Union, what is so wrong with a Free Trade zone? Ah but in reality the Union exists to prevent another war, isn't that the tacit fact, Ireland and the Irish may as well be looking down the barrel of a gun, tacitly of course.

You think that being part of the Euro means that we're preventing bombs from dropping on Europe, dont make me laugh! Are you so caught up with your "I want Ireland to be independant" that your judgement is that clouded?

Are you so obsessed with the lie that anything Irish is bad, that you refuse to accept the fact that the EU need not be a political Union and that the political union element of the European Union is in fact a mechanism to bring European countrys closer ideally by consent, but as is the case with Ireland, by other means if necessary. I do not consent to the Nice treaty, I have already voted on it, that referendum was free and fair and now the dictats of Europe are nullafying my democratic voice, in effect the European Union and our much vaunted partners are seeking to disenfranchise me. So a body set up to bring European inegration by consent, instead of by force as Hitler and before him Cesar wanted, is now attempting to serrupticiously coerce this nation into it's gandeous Federal Union and what if Ireland refuses? Will the next step be the dropping of any pretences of consent?

The Euro, surprise surprise, is a little bit more than a "political experiment", it removes the disincentives of trade between us and the rest of Europe, ie. if exchange rates changed after a deal had been agreed then a company could lose all of it's profits, or at least cut them sharply, and since we do so much trade within Europe this is most definitly a good thing.

Unfortunately the inflation introduced by the Euro is having a much greater detramental effect then the stability of a single currency intra-Europe. So the interest rates will remain at their current levels until such time as France and or Germany want those rates reset and the Irish will just have to lump it hmm? Do you know what that makes us? A colony an economic second class state, subserviant to the real powers in the European Union and marginalised.

Yes, we have high inflation, but i've already pointed out my reasoning behind the majority of it, yes the Euro changeover has caused some of it, but it's you who's jumping on the bandwagon here.

What you've already said you think the hardworking Irish worker is to blame have you not? Excuse me while I don't share your view on that. The pogrom against the public sector worker never seemed quite so vociferous until Ireland lost the ability to remove high inflation via interest rate reduction did it?

I do believe that I said "in a few years time", yes, flights are cheap now, I agree in deregulation of the air ports, yet I can also see the point in not just handing over the countries assets to one independant body, see the problems we have with Eircom's control of the telecommunications infrastructure.

The difference is Eircom took over the state's infrastructure, infrastructure paid for with tax payers money, while RyanAir wants to use RyanAir's money, not tax payer's money to build a second Terminal in Dublin, not only that but the state would retain control over the first Terminal, so the situation is not analagous to the Eircom debacle.

Personally I disagree with PPPs, I think that there should be a small increase in tax on petrol and disel and that would easily and quickly collect the money for the improved infrastructure that we need, something similar to the plastic bag tax -- the money is guaranteed to go directly towards repairing and building roads, instead of all the bloody tolls that are proposed.

A small tax increase might be a good idea, I'm not saying no, there will always be people in favour and people against. Since petrol is already so expensive though you might have a hard time swinging that. Par example rought €5 in the USA buys you enough to make a car go for 120 miles while roughly €20 does the same in Ireland, this is a noticable difference for Truckers and Taxi drivers and even normal drivers like me.

And I've noticed that in your reply you made no reference to the changes you want done to the interest rates to correct the inflation problems

I want the Irish central bank to have the power to influence interest rates so that there will not be as much pressure on people like me to take less wage, in a time of global economic meltdown.