Wrestling as a sport? i dont think so

Dustaz

the skill level of a professional wrestler ranks up there with any other "Sport" Not only do you have to be strong, fast you have to be able to remember extremely complicated sets of moves know as "Spots" and you have to be able to absorb an obsene amout of punishment, Acting skill comes in handy too. Anyway this is going to go off topic so nuff said!

Sorry, but they could balance seals on thier heads while whistling dixie and it still doesnt impress me. All sports men (please note the lack of "" ) absorb punishment and are fit strong and fast, but the key element is that it is Competitive. Wrestling is not. therefore you cannot, EVER, compare it to a sport. It is a TV program with particularly bad actors (with questionable drugs connections).

No matter how much money it makes, or how many adolescent american kids devour the PPV specials, it will never be considered a sport. I would sooner recognise Quake as a sport.


ok, discussion started

chernobyl

Dustaz, its "Sports Entertainment".
Wrestling is television drama but certainly not a sport.
When something is a sport is suggests that compeditors go "at it" under fair conditions until a winner prevails, wrestling is scripted and no one is under any other illusion.

..its better than most of the other crap on TV.

Dustaz

Originally posted by chernobyl
Dustaz, its "Sports Entertainment".
Wrestling is television drama but certainly not a sport.
When something is a sport is suggests that compeditors go "at it" under fair conditions until a winner prevails, wrestling is scripted and no one is under any other illusion.

..its better than most of the other crap on TV.

I dispute that. Calling it "sports entertainment" is misleading in itself. By associating itsself with the word "sports", it is selling the illusion of competition. This is its stock in trade.
If noone is under any illusion that wrestling is scripted, why is there no script/cheoreography credits at the end? Im always suprised they get away with that in such a union oriented industry (TV, not sports).

A good example would be Dream Team on sky one. I quite like that show, but i would never call it "sports entertainment". The actors in it are accomplished football players, but i wouldnt call them athletes. Most of all though, you know when they are playing a match that it is running out to its scripted and directed conclusion. The only reason that wrestling has any 'excitement' is the illusion that there is some compeition.

Chowmein

I agree with Dustaz. Its simply not a sport, seen as there is no competition.

EL_Diablo

There is a certain element of competition. I guarantee that every wrestler that steps foot in that ring wants to look the best they can in their match. They are competing against all the other athletes in every other match and if they don't perform to the best of their abilities then other wrestlers and not themselves will get the push to go on to become big.

Btw, Dustaz, there are little or no drug connections in the WWF for one. William Regal's entrance into the WWF was delayed a year to allow him to attend a drug rehabilitation clinic, The Road Dog and Brian Christopher were both caught with drugs and were kicked out. Maybe other federations allow drug users in but the Main body of Pro Wrestling, the WWF doesn't.

bombidol

Its a bit late to get stuck into this one, itll have to wait till tomorrow.

bomb

Chowmein

Originally posted by EL_Diablo
There is a certain element of competition. I guarantee that every wrestler that steps foot in that ring wants to look the best they can in their match.

So its a some sort of Beauty contest then?

EL_Diablo

So its a some sort of Beauty contest then?

heh heh.No, I meant they want to appear to work hard and perform well because someone who is seen to do this will have much more of a chance than someone who is seen to be slacking, so with everyone trying perform well there is a certain element of competitiveness.

ykt0di9url7bc3

wwf = well scripted sports opera , with a lot of stunts and coreography, generated for all the family

every now and again i my watch a few moments, there are some cool stunts!

Giblet

Originally posted by Dustaz



If noone is under any illusion that wrestling is scripted, why is there no script/cheoreography credits at the end? Im always suprised they get away with that in such a union oriented industry (TV, not sports).

Most of the moves are "felt out", the outcome is definatly scripted, but most of the moves, besides setpieces, are done randomly, the wrestlers just train so well that they know how to respond to any move properly.

I'd call it a sports entertainment due to it being highly physical, and the wrestlers being highly athlethic and its does demand alot physically, even if it is "fake".

And also there is no strict need for competiveness(sp?) for it to be a sport, as it could be classed as a sport if there is no competition involved, even though it is not common to think so. Check any dictionary.

bombidol

Ok, here we go!
dustaz, You seem like an Intelligent man, your just a little bit uninformed, as a long time (15 year) wrestling fan i am in a better position than yourself to explain what Pro Wrestling is. First off, WWE (wwf changed their name recently) is not pro wrestling, it is "Sports entertainment" now what that means ill leave till later, Vince McMahon (the chairman of wwe) set himself a few goals back in the day and the main one was to create a product that EVERYONE would watch, he took violence for the men and soap opera for the women and he moulded it together to produce WWE.
There are hundreds of other Wrestling Promotions that do not include the soap opera edge into their product , instead they rely on the show that their wrestlers can put on for the crowd INSIDE the ring.
Wrestling fans never wanted Pro Wrestling to be classed as a sport, if we wanted to watch real sports we could watch football or if we wanted to watch fighting we could watch UFC or boxing, Pro wrestling is a SHOW thats all it is, it should never be classed as a pure sport, It has been well documented that Pro Wrestlers are the best athletes in the world today, and are extremely well respected in "Real" sports, in fact many "Real" sports personalitys have tried and failed in the world of Pro Wrestling. Muhammad Ali being one of them, it left him permanently injured.
i agree that the acting is incredibly chessy most of the time, but thats one of the good things about it, its for a laugh.

bomb

the fnj

Now I'm a huge wrestling fan and a sports fan but this really puzzles me?

Originally posted by bombidol
It has been well documented that Pro Wrestlers are the best athletes in the world today,

By whom?

I've been a wrestling fan for a long time, there is no way I would consider wrestler's to be the best athletes in the world today? A lot of them just have very very high pain thresholds, have very big balls (which is why they take steroids the fact that they allow them to train harder and make there muscles bigger is just a happy coincidence) and they are willing to do anything for money.

Terry Funk
Mick Foley
New Jack
Vic Grimes
Sandman (I can continue this list if you want)

None of these are athletes I have a lot of respect for all of them, bar Vic Grimes (I can’t stand that jobber). They all performed some of the craziest stunts I have seen in pro wrestling but none of them are athletes.

Also wrestlers do take drugs to enhance their bodies. It’s been documented many times that Vince actively encouraged the taking of steroids. Of course Vince being the PR man that he is will always take the hard line with anyone exposed to be taking drugs, but very few get exposed.

Triple H.
Kurt Angle
The Rock

Your trying to tell me with their very busy schedules they can get that level of muscular definition without taking performance-enhancing drugs?

I know a fair bit about wrestling and I know a lot more about sports. Wrestlers are entertainers nothing more. If your embarrassed by your enjoyment of wrestling don’t try and justify it by calling wrestlers athletes, sports men etc. This reflects badly on your own sense of security. Entertainers nothing more.

Gaz

I'd call it a sports entertainment due to it being highly physical

Eh ... you could say the same thing about porn, does that make it a sport ? LOL

just because its highly physical dosnt make it a sport. I personally dont watch wrestling , i just dont like it but some of the moves are impressive but that still isnt enough to call it a sport

Saruman

Fighting a war is very physical but i doubt we will be seeing it on Sky Sports any time soon... Wrestling.. at least TV wrestling is bad American soap with some cool stunts! Thats it..

Wolff

Muhammad Ali trying wrestling ! WTF

When, Where, Why and not including gimmicky fights....

The only celebs I remember trying wrestling are Andy Kaufman and Cindy Lauper !

I rest my case.

bombidol

Terry Funk
Mick Foley
New Jack
Vic Grimes
Sandman (I can continue this list if you want)

What you failed to explain was the fact that none of these men are Wrestlers, they are involved in a side of pro wrestling called "Garbage" Wrestling which originated in Japan by a company called FMW which was owned by an insane bloke called inoki. Terry Funk back in the day could be called a wrestler but when his skills failed he resorted to Garbage wrestling.

Triple H.
Kurt Angle
The Rock
Part of every wresters day to day schedule is a trip to the Gym, even on tour in distant countrys gyms will be booked in advance.
kurt angle has always been a big bloke even looking back to the olympic days. The results that can be acheived by a decent diet along with diet supplements are not to be underestimated, Triple H while he is a big bloke is nothing in comparision to most pro bodybuilders out there, and the Rock is smaller now than he has ever been, and looks like he has been doing nothing but cardio work. I come from a big Bodybuilding family and my father himself won some medals and stuff for it and i can say hes never gone near "Roids". To say there are no steriods in Professional wrestling would be stupid and there obviously is but not anywhere near the amount there was in the 80's.
Vince mcmahon was involved in the WWF steriods scandal in the early 90's when WWF was brought to court over alledged steriod abuse, he was never convicted or no evidence was ever presented to the court that showed he asked wrestlers to take steriods, Hulk hogan admitted it as well as some others who didnt even work for the WWF.
I myself have never called a wrestler a sportsman and have never called wrestling a sport, its a show, entertainment but Wrestlers themselves are among the greatest athletes in the world today. give me some time and ill find some references from "Real" athletes about Wrestlers

Bomb

Giblet

Originally posted by Darth Homer


Eh ... you could say the same thing about porn, does that make it a sport ? LOL

just because its highly physical dosnt make it a sport. I personally dont watch wrestling , i just dont like it but some of the moves are impressive but that still isnt enough to call it a sport

Its amazing how much a difference posting something outta context can make. As you may have noticed, i used this as an example amongst other things.

bombidol

Actually if you ask me the closest profession to wrestling is Porn.

There are no actual feelings behind the actions
Its all a show and highly scripted

The only person to combine both of them is US porn king Rob Black who owns and runs XPW, he uses Female porn stars as Valets for shows also rumour has it that some of his lower card wrestlers are past Porn stars too.


Bomb

Dustaz

Originally posted by bombidol

as a long time (15 year) wrestling fan i am in a better position than yourself to explain what Pro Wrestling is.

Im not 12 thanks. I remember perfectly when we started getting American Wrestling here, and the crap brittish stuff before that.

First off, WWE (wwf changed their name recently) is not pro wrestling, it is "Sports entertainment" now what that means ill leave till later,

Why so they keep calling it pro-wrestling every 10 seconds?
Ill repeat what i said earlier:
I dispute that. Calling it "sports entertainment" is misleading in itself. By associating itsself with the word "sports", it is selling the illusion of competition. This is its stock in trade.
If noone is under any illusion that wrestling is scripted, why is there no script/cheoreography credits at the end? Im always suprised they get away with that in such a union oriented industry (TV, not sports).

Vince McMahon (the chairman of wwe) set himself a few goals back in the day and the main one was to create a product that EVERYONE would watch, he took violence for the men and soap opera for the women and he moulded it together to produce WWE.

I doubt that women comprise any more than 15 or 20% of the demographic of the show. Soaps appeal to both sexes, not just women.

Pro wrestling is a SHOW thats all it is, it should never be classed as a pure sport

This is the crux here. I can never be classes as a sport full stop, pure or otherwise. All through your post you allude to sports - 'pure sports' 'athletes' 'sports entertainment' 'actual sportsmen respecting them'. This is indicative of your need for the genre to be taken seriously by the sporting world. As highlighted by this:

It has been well documented that Pro Wrestlers are the best athletes in the world today,

Aboslute and Utter nonsense. Everything you have posted up untill now has been just biased by your affection for the genre, but this goes a long way into showing what you actually believe. This is insulting to realy athletes. These people are NOT athletes. They are essentially drug taking stuntmen. Please accept that.

Athletes do what they do under the pressure of Competition something which is patently lacking in pro wrestling. Sorry to keep bashing you with that point, but its true.

Muhammad Ali being one of them, it left him permanently injured.

I see, more than being 3 times heavyweight campion of the world harmed him? Come off it.

Originally posted by El_Diablo
Btw, Dustaz, there are little or no drug connections in the WWF for one.

ROFL

Ph3n0m

Well by god its time I threw my two cents into the mix


First off

"Im always suprised they get away with that in such a union oriented industry (TV, not sports). "

First correction - there is no union in pro-wrestling, all there is, is a contract between the owner/company and the performer/wrestler

"I doubt that women comprise any more than 15 or 20% of the demographic of the show."

While that may be true (no one here really knows), they are still part of the demographic.

"Aboslute and Utter nonsense. Everything you have posted up untill now has been just biased by your affection for the genre, but this goes a long way into showing what you actually believe. This is insulting to realy athletes. These people are NOT athletes. They are essentially drug taking stuntmen. Please accept that.

Athletes do what they do under the pressure of Competition something which is patently lacking in pro wrestling. Sorry to keep bashing you with that point, but its true."

a) Not all of them are drug taking stuntmen and women. That is an obscene generalisation on your part Dustaz. There is a simpl golden rule - if they look too good to be true, then they are on the gas (steroids). And unfortunately that does not apply to all or even a majority of pro-wrestlers

b) Sorry to burst your bubble, but most of them are legitamite athletes, or have come from legitamite athletic backgrounds (american football, amatuer wrestling, etc)

c) Technically there is "competition" between pro-wrestlers, the better they perform, the better their position on a wrestling card, which in turn favours them for better contracts, merchandising, etc.


At best, in defence of any form of pro-wrestling, it is entertainment, there is competition (behind the scenes between the wrestlers/performers), there is an element of "sport" in it, due to the simple fact that you have to be trained to wrestle, you have to be trained to take bumps, and you also have to adapt your body to a hectic schedule of performing night after night, in different cities, over 300 days a year.

Personally I dont take pro-wrestling seriously, hell I look at it as another TV program, but I do admire what they do, I do admire that they legitamitely bust their asses for the entertainment of the fans.

Giblet

Damn it Dustaz, your one of the most cynical people I have ever seen on boards . Its clear you don't know what your talking about on this matter. For one thing the use use of drugs by members of the WWE is strictly prohibited. Maybe you never heard about it, but there was a huge scandal in the 80's about this, and while some wrestlers (including hulk hogan) admitted to taking steroids, none did so in the WWE. Eddie Guerreo and Brian Christopher were fired for this, though Eddie is back after some rehab. To be an athlete means to be athletic, and it would be ignorance on your part to say that the likes of HHH and especially Kurt angle weren't athletes. I think that your opinions stem from your dislike of pro wrestling.
Oh and this:

Definition of sport
from http://www.yourdictionary.com/

1 a : a source of diversion : RECREATION b : sexual play c (1) : physical activity engaged in for pleasure (2) : a particular activity (as an athletic game) so engaged in

Dustaz

Originally posted by Ph3n0m
"Im always suprised they get away with that in such a union oriented industry (TV, not sports). "

First correction - there is no union in pro-wrestling, all there is, is a contract between the owner/company and the performer/wrestler

Sorry, look up the context of that quote before you spout nonsense. TV is highly unionised in america which is why the credit rollers are so big (everyone gets a credit). Ive often wondered why the wwe/f/whateever gets away with not crediting the people who work on the bilge.

b) Sorry to burst your bubble, but most of them are legitamite athletes, or have come from legitamite athletic backgrounds (american football, amatuer wrestling, etc)

Sorry to burst your bubble mate, but they ceased to be athletes when they stopped competing and became stuntmen

c) Technically there is "competition" between pro-wrestlers, the better they perform, the better their position on a wrestling card, which in turn favours them for better contracts, merchandising, etc.

Hello? Are you for real? this sort of competition exists in EVERY walk of life. The same could be said for actors in a soap, which is the point im making.

there is an element of "sport" in it, due to the simple fact that you have to be trained to wrestle, you have to be trained to take bumps, and you also have to adapt your body to a hectic schedule of performing night after night, in different cities, over 300 days a year.

How in any definition is this sport? You have to be trained to do most things, Actors are trained to do kung fu for movies, but it doesnt make them athletes. Stuntmen take bumps, ditto. As for the gruelling schedule, Roadies seem to have no problem with this and they are certinaly not athletes.

Damn it Dustaz, your one of the most cynical people I have ever seen on boards .

cheers:)

Its clear you don't know what your talking about on this matter. For one thing the use use of drugs by members of the WWE is strictly prohibited.

rofl Yes, Its also strictly prohibited in the Olympics and Cycling, Nightclubs and streetcorners. Your point?

Maybe you never heard about it, but there was a huge scandal in the 80's about this, and while some wrestlers (including hulk hogan) admitted to taking steroids, none did so in the WWE. Eddie Guerreo and Brian Christopher were fired for this, though Eddie is back after some rehab.

Noone in the wwf admitted taking steroids so therefore theyre clean? Please. Also, it may have escaped your attention, but Hulk Hogan was in the WWF (which is now apparently the WWE?). I suppose he only picked up this filthy habit once he left?

To be an athlete means to be athletic, and it would be ignorance on your part to say that the likes of HHH and especially Kurt angle weren't athletes.

I wont for one second argue that these guys arent athletic. What they do can sometimes be pretty impressive. However, the term athletes implies that they are competing for something, which they are not. Thats what started this thread off. The Pro-wrestling worlds CONSTANT self-association with sport to try and gain some sort of legitamacy. HHH is not an athlete. He is a bodybuilder and a wrestler. Kurt Angle was an athlete, but is no more. Simple as that.

Why is this even being entertained .Whats a sport and whats not a sport.If dustaz believes wrestling is not a sport let him believe that.This is a wrestling forum we talk about wrestling.We dont question it.If wrestling can be questioned why not question formula 1.Thats not a sport.Its guys sitting in cars.Snooker is guys hitting ball on tables.Darts ,golf .None of these are sports either.This thread should be closed

bombidol

Dustaz i must admit im saddened, i thought you would have at least given me credit for knowing this business and i do know it, extremely well, If you were an expert on rugby i wouldnt fight you on it because id know you know more about that subject than me. All of your comment are based on your feelings towards pro wrestling and a lot of your comments didnt even make sense, especially the Ali one. Pro wrestling is what it has always been called since the 20's, i hope that expains one of your statements, because i cant understand some of your post.
I see, more than being 3 times heavyweight campion of the world harmed him? Come off it. That make NO sense.
Also when i said i am a 15 year fan, that means i have been watching wrestling 15 years, not i remember wrestling 15 years ago, im sure your not 12. You might remember when wrestling arrived here but i was watching it

Bomb

dardoz

This is a joke I take it, lol

If we are talking WWF here, that is a stage show not a sport. In formula 1, they still compete to be the winner, something active you compete in can be called a sport. WWF cant be, the winners are set out before the fight even begins, they are just actors or stuntmen who do what they are told to do

bombidol

True Dre, ill lock this up im a while as this discussion could go on for a while but it will go nowhere.

bomb

bombidol

Ok, thread reopened, the reason i closed it in the first place is because i really dont want this becoming a place to discuss if wrestling is a sport or not, i dont mind the odd discussion but i know that this forum will be full of those types of threads so ill keep this one open forever, and other threads of this type will be locked, If you have a gripe about Wrestling put it here, nowhere else. Fair?

bomb

Ph3n0m

how come you re-opened it? just curious?

bombidol

I reopened it because its the lesser of two evils, either i keep this one open or i have to deal with multiple "Rasslin is FakE" Threads, this way i can close all of them except this one. Like i said i dont mind having a general discussion about the topic, but when you come up against someone lke Dustaz (Who is sound by the way)who will defend their point of view religiously (not a bad thing) dispite other sources being more informed.
I dont want this discussion to continue on and on and on , but thats what its going to di because both sides see the story different.

Bomb

the fnj

Originally posted by bombidol

Vince mcmahon was involved in the WWF steriods scandal in the early 90's when WWF was brought to court over alledged steriod abuse, he was never convicted or no evidence was ever presented to the court that showed he asked wrestlers to take steriods

I can't believe your trying to defend Vince Mc Mahon. The guy is an evil piece of work. Look at what he did to Bret Hart, your trying to tell me that someone who could do that to one of his staff wouldn't be capable of forcing "roids" down there throats.

Also your point about Triple H not being as built is complete BS. If you are from a body building family you would be well aware that body builders only look like that during competition time. Normally if you saw one you would think fat bastard. Before a competition they eat a rabbit food diet and dehydrate themselves to get the sickly looking muscle definition.

Triple H is doing steroids, it is impossible to maintain that sort of physique with the schedule he has without resorting to a performance enhancer like steroids.

You also said some wrestlers are not athletes so where is the line drawn?

I am a wrestling fan, I’ll admit I have not followed it as much since the close of ECW but I still know my stuff. I don’t have an insecurity issue when it comes to wrestling that I have to try and pretend it’s something it’s not to justify watching and enjoying it. It is an insult to a really athlete to try and compare us to these drugged up stunt men.

bombidol

I would never defend Vince mcmahon he is a scumbag, but he is a businessman and thats what business men are like. I was just stating the facts of the matter. True about Bodybuilders, most carry weight a lot of the year, bu what you have to remember as i said is that pro wrestlers train everday, with very few exceptions, they have to as a physical clause in their contract shows that they have to look as the company see's fit. the only person i could ever 100% say is on roids is scott steiner, its obvious from the aggression levels he has.

Bomb