Lodge an official complaint on ADSL prices

castie

ive given eircom my 2 cents

BoneCollector

Just noticing that some replies people are getting regarding the High price of dsl, there is a repitition of text in all replies.

Taking this as a point, eircom must be getting a lot of negative responces to there pricing structure that they have to re-use the same paragraph over and over.
Which obviously means People are not that stupid about being ripped off, eircom are just ignorant!

Tellox

Mr.

---

,

Further to your query, I have summarised the detailed response I received
from the Pricing team.

Analysis and trend research indicates that 350,000 customers have internet
access from home in Ireland. The average monthly call spend is approximately
EUR12.00 with an average time spent on line of approximately 9½ hours per
month. On the issue of dial-up charges, as you are aware, eircom offers
these customers two options for paying for Internet access; 'pay as you go'
and subscription based service. The rates charged in both options compare
favourably with other European countries. This is substantiated by the
ODTR's recent Consultation Paper on the Internet (Feb. 2002) which reported
that, "Ireland does score well on access prices for the Internet - the EC's
6th Report places Ireland as the 3rd cheapest in the EU".

Pay as You Go
The customer pays, at local call rates, for the time they are accessing the
internet. Our local call rates are among the lowest in Europe and are
particularly competitive at evenings and weekends (see below). This is when
the majority of our residential users access the internet.

Euro cent eircom UK Sweden France Denmark Germany
Belgium Italy Austria
Daytime 3 min 15.1 19.0 12.0 15.8 14.6
18.4 19.8 11.9 19.1
Evening 10 min 12.5 23.8 16.7 22.5 22.2
30.6 29.9 17.2 28.8
Weekends 15 min 18.8 24.1 22.7 34.6 31.6
24.5 42.3 22.7 43.2
Source: Tarifica Dec. 2001)

Subscription Account
In return for a monthly subscription charge to their Internet Service
Provider (ISP), customers access the internet at 1891 rates. Several ISP's
offer this service including our ISP, eircom.net. The 1891 code is
specifically for internet access and 1891 rates are significantly lower than
local call rates, as outlined below. This product is particularly suited to
home workers accessing the internet during the day.

(Euro cent per minute) eircom local call rate 1891 rate
Differential
Daytime (8am -6pm Mon-Fri) 5.07cpm 1.95cpm -62%
Evening
(6pm -8am Mon-Fri) 1.26cpm 0.97cpm -23%
Weekend
(all day Sat & Sun and public hols) 1.26cpm 0.97cpm -23%

eircom options, eircom's personalised calling plan, includes up to 350
minutes of local or 1891 call credit each month - the equivalent of over 5½
hours free internet access every month. There are in excess of 350,000
residential customers on the eircom options calling plan.

On the issue of flat-rate and the commercial viability of such a service;
eircom operates in a fully deregulated market, both in relation to telephony
services and internet access. There are now more than ten operators offering
residential and business customers a choice of telephony and Internet
services. All of these operators are free to introduce internet access
packages, including "flat rate" access. Furthermore, with the introduction
of Local Loop Unbundling, there is also no barrier to their introduction of
broadband access. However, the relative size of the Irish market, together
with lower internet access per capita than many of the more densely
populated EU countries, makes it difficult to provide this service
profitably. This has been proven by experience of Esat with their 'Surf No
Limits' product and is also confirmed by the ODTR in their recent
consultation document highlighting the issue this model raises: "Many
operators in Europe offering 'flat-rate' services are finding it difficult
to make money and some schemes have been withdrawn. Matching telephony costs
and revenues is particularly important as margins decline".

eircom i-stream is effectively a 'flat-rate' product as the customer is not
charged for the telecommunications time on line but pays an agreed
subscription rate for its Internet service. The fact that Esat has opted to
charge a similar monthly fee for their DSL-based similar offering, indicates
the premium nature of the product. As I mentioned below, eircom is
investigating the development of cheaper product(s) for the residential
market.

In summary, eircom's existing internet access rates offer good comparative
value for money. However, as we are keen to continue to drive and develop
the internet market in Ireland for all our customers and are committed to
the growth of the market as a whole, we will continue to monitor market
conditions in relation to potential future pricing initiatives. The ODTR has
recently set aside two internet access codes, 1892 and 1893, which are
intended to provide a number of options for operators in charging for
internet access. In the first instance, the 1892 code will be used as a
mechanism for migrating "Pay-as-you-go" traffic from the PSTN network to a
more advanced Data or IP network. This will allow the ISP community to
improve the service they offer customers and improve overall network
efficiency. The actual introduction date for 1892 is a matter primarily for
the ISPs. Once that significant step has been achieved, the industry,
including eircom, other operators, ISPs and the offices of the ODTR, will
investigate the potential for the introduction of new internet access
products.

It is also important to note that price is not the most significant barrier
to more widespread use of the internet in Ireland. The ODTR's March 2002
Quarterly Report detailed market research carried out by independent agency
I.M.S. into home internet access. It showed that the cost of access was
ranked far below the issue of "lack of PC" and "lack of interest" as
reasons for not being on-line. Furthermore, the trend shows that cost is
declining as a factor over time.

Statement 2001 2002
Not interested 38% 39%
No PC at home 23% 26%
Too expensive 15% 8%

eircom has undertaken a major awareness campaign over the past six months to
make the possibilities of the internet more relevant to peoples' every-day
lives. This, linked with enhanced and more relevant content on the
www.eircom.net and www.eircom.ie websites, will contribute directly to more
customers accessing the internet and using it more often to carry out
day-to-day activities.

I hope this helps put our position into context.

Regards,

Louise

---

Original Message

---

From: Bannon, Louise
Sent: 16 May 2002 21:27
To: 'Tell Ocx'
Subject: RE: eircom i-stream


Mr.

---

,

Regarding the issue of ADSL deployment, I'm again sorry that you may have
left the country by the time it is available in your area. However, I can
only reiterate the rationale behind the deployment plan. It is not possible
to simplify the infrastructure/exchange work required to deliver service and
we must manage the phased deployment as efficiently as possible. This means
targeting those exchanges where we can maximise customer reach within the
shortest period of time, hence the choice of Dublin as the area for the
first phase of roll-out.

On the issue of flat rate internet access, as I have been out of the office
much of today and am unfortunately away again tomorrow, I have forwarded
your mail to the Pricing Group for their input. I will respond to you on my
return next week.

Regards,

Louise

---

deep healing breath... deep healing breath...

timod

In fairness to Eircom, that's a very well constructed reply.

However, I don't think they are fooling us.

The facts speak for themselves:

- €720 for 24/7 56k access in Ireland, €25 in UK.

- €25 for ADSL in France, €108 in Ireland (where available)

Something obviously wrong...

PiE

I got the exact same response about the pricing as Tizlox there did.

Took them over a week to gimme it too. Can't write back now, still feeling the effects of last night ;\

flamegrill

One thing that I will say is this, all I want is Broadband, I can afford to pay €120 a month for ADSL from eircom/esat/whoever. The problem with ADSL from eircom/whoever or broadband in this market is availablity. The fact is that regardless of the price of this product, I won't ever be able to get it where I am, well not in the forseeable future anyway. I would gladly pay for it right now, infact I would even pay more, but i would expect that the limit would not be present on traffic.

So really the problem is not the pricing but its the slowness of the Release of the technology. Its new ok, but not new last year or the year before or even the year before that. I can not for the life of me see why exactly it takes eircom 10 times longer than any ISP to implament new technologies. Like take ISDN for example or their product "High Speed" its ancient yet they try their living best to get people to subscribe to this service. They could have dropped isdn many many moons ago and developed xDSL and we would be happier, yet still being ripped off by its steep price, but at least broadband would not be a dream, it would be fact.

As for them stating that the monthly average of internet access in Ireland is 10 hours/m that can not be correct. But alas I think that I may be floggin a dead donkey.

Regards,

Paul

Cork

Personally, I blame eircom.

Personally, I blame the Sun, Moon & Stars. Why do people make contributions blaming X, Y & Z.

What does making contributions like a bunch of moaners achieve?

Nothing.

Do ye think Eircom will think twice of what ye think of them.

Do ye think that they can't sleep at night reading these message boards?

What has all this moaning achieved?

Next to nothing.

What Lreland Off Line needs is to get Positive. Highlight the overpricing. Get on talk shows. Lobby Government, Lobby EU, Lobby Eircom, Lobby ODTR.

But Moaning achieves nothing. Its a waste of time & effort.

Tellox

cork, if they had the opportunitys, they would.
but they cant afford it themselves, IOffL are a free organization

Cork

if they had the opportunitys, they would.

I know thay the resources of Ireland Off Line are very limited. I know that Eircom's resources (God love them) are great.

But Ireland Off Lines case is so strong - we should be highlighting it more.

If it was a can of beans or dentiests fees - it would be on every talk show.

Has anybody contacted Consumer Choice? We meed to issue press releases when Eircom release their financial results.

We need to lobby. Moaning & groaning is getting us no where. We have good cause to moan but it is a pointless exercise.

I was talking to an Eircom Employee last night. He rues that day that the company was privatised. What I can't understand is that LLU is surposed to be happening. It does not seem to be making a differance.

This posting is not intended as a critism of anybody. It is an observation. We should avoid antagonising TDS - we need to have a good relationship with them. Our case is so strong - antagonising will backfire. In summary - we need to lobby, lobby & Lobby.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by Cork
I know thay the resources of Ireland Off Line are very limited. I know that Eircom's resources (God love them) are great.

But Ireland Off Lines case is so strong - we should be highlighting it more.

We've had major input into several newspaper articles. We've lobbied industry bodies such as the SFA, Forfas, ISC, etc. These groups are mostly sympathetic. We've also lobbied TD's and Government officials. It is true that there is always more to be done. Obviously, there's still a long way to go.

If it was a can of beans or dentiests fees - it would be on every talk show.

A small problem we're facing is that only about a third of the population bother with the Internet at all. It is still regarded as something of a luxury in this country unlike, say, the US where over 60% are active users of the Internet at home. Of course, this situation is largely due to the poor services we have here. Nevertheless, it is hard to make it a populist issue like health or education.

Has anybody contacted Consumer Choice?

We have been in touch with the consumers association (which publishes consumer choice) and they seem interested.

We meed to issue press releases when Eircom release their financial results.

Eircom won't release their results since it is no longer quoted on any stock exchange.

Cork

Points taken. But we need to work with people. I know that we have some vested interests but we are fighting the good fight.

We need to be friendly to the new minister for example. We need to keep on lobbying. It is not a question of making people see the light. At this stage, people are getting a raw deal. We need to highlight this. We don't have to be hostile.

dahamsta

Talk about stating the bleeding obvious...

adam

yellum

Yes, be nice to the new minister and if the government decides to screw us over like the previous one, we'll still keep smiling and the next time we meet the minister we'll even provide the ky jelly.


:rolleyes:

vinnyfitz

Well done Tizlox and Co you have forced them to defend themselves and now we can deal with their arguments (which are surely the ones they use to brief the minister etc as well.

The ODTR figures they use are very carefully chosen - they ignore the damning usage statisitics on the same pages .
Table 5.1: Average Internet Usage January 2002.
“Figures for US, Ireland, UK respectively:
Number of Sessions per Month: 21, 9, 14
Number of Unique Sites Visited: 47, 30, 42
Hours Spent per Site: n/a, 12:39, 20:18
Hours Spent per Month 11:27:08, 4:05:07, 6:45:36”

Also She says "As I mentioned below, eircom is
investigating the development of cheaper product(s) for the residential market." I don't see any other mention of this above or below.

By the way Cork, I just flicked through all your previous posts on this forum. Could I suggest you chip in some practical information, tell us what work you have done on lobbying for the cause and what the results have been or volunteer to do help out with somehting specific rather than just "hurling from the ditch"?

Thanks

gurramok

And they carefully omit the fact as we know that flat-rate in one form or another whether its 56k/isdn/dsl/cable or even wireless and satellite exist in nearly every country in EU.
The 'we are cheaper' argument by eircon for telephone calls would only wash with the uninformed.
Geez, where else other than here do people pay subscription to access at 56k ??
Btw how does ireland rank in usage stats in EU?...i bet its at or near the bottom end of the pile.

dahamsta

Geez, where else other than here do people pay subscription to access at 56k ??

Pretty much everywhere really gurramok. My sister lives in London and I nearly had a coronary the last time she was home, when I found out she's using a metered product. But she was right, because she uses the Internet very little.

Some people simply don't need an unmetered product, and doing away with unmetered isn't the issue. The issue is choice, and abuse: we should be able to choose from a tier of products that most suit our needs; and Eircom shouldn't be allowed abuse their dominant position.

The standard argument of "no demand" from both Eircom and the ODTR is facecious, and plain illogical. Flat-rate Internet access will save a large percentage of Internet users money, and people by their very nature want to save money. Saying there's no demand is not only wrong, it's positively stupid.

Btw how does ireland rank in usage stats in EU?...i bet its at or near the bottom end of the pile.

The numbers in my head may not be right, but I seem to remember that Ireland is at or around 33%, as against the UK with 66%. The numbers can be twisted every which way though, and Eircom do this on a regular basis. Because, when you get right down to it, Eircom are liars.

adam

Dithean

This whole thread seems to be about one thing.
and that is
We need to complain and complain!
How this could be going on in the modern age is beyound me.
It is wrong.!!!

Rape of a people will do nothing more then make them so pissed off that the goverment will be uprooted from the core.

Take , take , take and give the ppl nothing.

You know Korea will have 10 mb lines in every avail house by 2005. The Gov wants them to have it.
You know the Swiss are working on 20mb lines by the very same time! or is it the Swedes? no matter point made.

And we can not even get a simple DSL line with a flat rate.!!!!
Something so wrong with this picture.

It hurts big time to see this happen.

aidan_dunne

It is also important to note that price is not the most significant barrier to more widespread use of the internet in Ireland. The ODTR's March 2002 Quarterly Report detailed market research carried out by independent agency I.M.S. into home internet access. It showed that the cost of access was ranked far below the issue of "lack of PC" and "lack of interest" as reasons for not being on-line.

I can't believe Eircom are still using the "no interest in the internet" argument. Sweet Jesus, they're still using that nearly a year on from when Soula Evans tried to flog us off with that excuse at the seminar! Talk about listening to a broken record!

You know what, folks? All this stuff I've been reading between the ODTR and Eircom has led me to believe that they're operating together and in collusion with one another. Sounds controversial, I know, but I'm of the mind now that the government, the ODTR, Eircom and Esat are operating a cosy cartel. And I don't give a f**k if that sounds libelous or not. Come on and try to sue my a$$ if you want to, you ba$tards, because by the time I'm finished trying to pay internet access bills there won't be anything left to sue from me! :mad:

Rant over!