Will a new government actually implement insurance reforms

NutJob

Will there be insurance reforms for young driveres or are young drivers going to be on honda 50s

Ruaidhri

are you mad?they charge an arm,a leg AND three testicles for insurance on a honda 50 but seriously they will NEVER drop the price of insurance..it's a joke

ToxicPaddy

Why should they, when all these insurance companies probably have half the politicians in their back pockets because they make large "donations" to their parties and campaigns...

So why would any politicians bite the hand that feeds them and gets them into power..???

They were going on about the corrupt politicians of the 70's and 80's, when half of them today are as bad only they have their finances well hidden...

sceptre

One of the most important reforms that could be introduced is a penalty points system.

Why we don't have something like that already beggars belief.

Leaving out the insurance aspect, the fact that people can regularly race down normal and country roads at speeds of over 90 miles an hour (on the basis that "hey, I'm not going to get caught - if I do it's only 50 quid") is just plain dangerous. Penalty points wouldn't have an immediate effect to change the way people drive - it might take Little Johnny Racer six or nine points on his licence before he realises that one more offence will result in him losing his licence but it's a system we need.

Also the practice of allowing learner drivers out on the road by themselves. Not that I'm not guilty of that myself. Passed my test last March after almost a year of driving in my own car. In retrospect, I should have just taken and passed the test last year.

Ireland suffers from an amazing lack of traffic regulation. The parking rules are ignored by almost everyone, speeding is so rampant that no-one pays much attention to it, drunk driving is still accepted by some people and the roads are poor.

Sorting out the above would make a large diffeence to insurance costs within two years or less.

And I haven't even addressed the main issue yet - the actual cost of insurance. The insurance companies are essentially self-regulating. There may be a limit to the amount of profit they can earn (after making the usual deductions for overhead) but there's no limit to the amount of profit they can make from any one group that they insure. And this is the root of the problem with regard to young people essentially getting screwed over. Now I do believe that most accidents are caused by young, inexperienced drivers. Without question. The fact is though, that insurance companies are making more profit from young women under the age of 24 (and to a slightly lesser extent, young men under the age of 25/26) than any other group. This is something that any government serious about reforming the insurance industry would have to look into and correct.

Lawyers fees are obviously another issue - but this affects all age groups equally - it's a policy decision of the insurance companies whether in general they settle without involving lawyers or just allow cases to proceed to court knowing they won't be substantially out of pocket as they can just raise premiums to compensate (keeping the amount of cost high means that the profit percentage they are allowed will be the same percentage of a bigger pie). Keep this point noted folks - I haven't seen this pointed out anywhere.

Will any future government take the needed steps? Perhaps on the penalty points (eventually - and the insurance companies are crying out for this to be introduced - or at least using it as a red herring) and on basic road investment.

On the other points - not on your nelly mate.

Neil3030

This really is more of a political issue.

Moved.

Hobbes

Originally posted by NutJob
Will there be insurance reforms for young driveres or are young drivers going to be on honda 50s

Wasn't all the car insurance places raided on Friday morning? To do with price fixing?

Anyone have more news on that?

Saruman

Vote the Brain number 1!!!

hehe

Anyway i can only hope the rip off will end.. its a disgrace...

seamus

Originally posted by sceptre
Ireland suffers from an amazing lack of traffic regulation. The parking rules are ignored by almost everyone, speeding is so rampant that no-one pays much attention to it, drunk driving is still accepted by some people and the roads are poor.

That's *really* the key issue here. As well as these, joyriders only get a slap on the wrists, drink driving convictions are quashed/reduced for anyone with mates in handy places, a massive amount of people drive without insurance and don't get caught.
Sentences need to be stricter.
Joyriding - 5 years minimum with no parole.
Death by Joyriding - Manslaughter (with a 10 year minimum) + life ban.
DUI - Lifetime Ban.
No insurance - Lifetime Ban.
Driving without accompaniment on 1st Prov - 6 month ban + 3 strikes = life ban system.

As long as traffic laws are lax, the insurance companies can complain about their 'costs' and how much they need to pay out.

:mad:

Mailman

Irish accident rates are the same as the European average. Motor Insurance premiums are not.

If Irish accident rates are the same as the European average then motor insurance premiums should match the european average.

The insurance companies are happy to let people argue about how unsafe our drivers are because it takes all the attention off them.

More info at www.mijag.com.

cornell babe

i wouold like to point out that fine gael seem to be the party with morst policy and proposals in the whole are of young drivers and insurance. people are so being ripped off and fg have proposed to bring in a insurance ombudsman. with the obvious ineffectiveness of the gardaí uh investigating the gardaí it is obvious that ombudsmen would be good options here.
fg will also give e400 to people who pass an advanced driving test this money could help towards paying for insurance.
and please dont tar all political parties with the same brush;
fg have banned all corporate donations so i really doubt that theres gonna be connections between them and the insurance industry.

sceptre

Originally posted by Mailman
Irish accident rates are the same as the European average. Motor Insurance premiums are not.

Nor are claims, awards or legal fees

Originally posted by Mailman
If Irish accident rates are the same as the European average then motor insurance premiums should match the european average.

See above.

Mailman

The person seeking motor insurance isn't thinking 'well I'm happy to pay €4000 because claims, awards and legal fees are higher here than anywhere else in the known universe'. The person seeking motor insurance is rightly thinking, 'I'm being royally screwed' here.

Now, you are saying that claims, awards and legal fees are causing the problem - does that mean that you are of the opinion they have a higher importance with regard to your insurance premia level than the ability of our drivers to drive safely. It's just you didn't challenge the first sentence of the quote you took from me- you know, the one where I said Irish drivers are no worse than the average in Europe.
If I'm just as good a driver as Mr Average in Europe and all other things are equal shouldn't I be paying roughly the same premium as Mr. Average and is it my fault if I'm not? If it's not my fault then who's fault is it?

A message to all.
Don't believe the motor insurance industry and others when they tell you that you are a bad driver. The biggest problem lies at another's door - their's.

Victor

Originally posted by Mailman
If I'm just as good a driver as Mr Average in Europe and all other things are equal shouldn't I be paying roughly the same premium as Mr. Average and is it my fault if I'm not? If it's not my fault then who's fault is it?

Its a very big 'if', too many Irish drivers do not meet the 'average' standard. And they still have to pay for the added risk of road conditions, weather and claims costs.

Originally posted by Mailman
A message to all. Don't believe the motor insurance industry and others when they tell you that you are a bad driver. The biggest problem lies at another's door - their's.

I was out for a walk yesterday. A parked car completely blocked the footpath (only one footpath) on a blind corner with double yellow lines. Every car I met for the next half mile was parked illegally, so i decided to mention it at the local Garda station - which had an unmarked car parked outside - on the footpath. I'm sorry but Irish drivers are muppets.

Mailman

The accident rate in Ireland is the same as the average in Europe. The accident rate is used for comparitive purposes and that is all it is useful for. It says nothing nor needs to say anything about road conditions or driver competence. Implications can be drawn but can't be relied on.

While you and I may not approve of people parking on pavements they have nothing to do with the accident rate until the cars parked on the particular pavements have caused accidents.

So forget about the potential accidents or incidents that you may come across and concentrate on the recorded accidents when dealing with this issue as the recorded accidents that have led to claims are the only ones that matter.

sceptre

Originally posted by Mailman
The person seeking motor insurance isn't thinking 'well I'm happy to pay €4000 because claims, awards and legal fees are higher here than anywhere else in the known universe'. The person seeking motor insurance is rightly thinking, 'I'm being royally screwed' here.

Never said it was a good thing - I'm just saying that if awards were lower in Ireland, the cost of insurance would be lower. Nice and simple.

Now, you are saying that claims, awards and legal fees are causing the problem - does that mean that you are of the opinion they have a higher importance with regard to your insurance premia level than the ability of our drivers to drive safely.

I'm not saying that they're solely causing the problem. What I am saying is that there's a tangiable thing that's directly proportional to the cost of insurance. That happens to be the amount of money that's paid out in claims every year. And legal fees each year. The amount paid out in Ireland per accident is higher than the amount paid out in the UK and across Europe. Fact. This means that if there was a smaller amount paid out per accident the resulting cost of insurance to be passed on would be lower. Fact. Same applies to legal fees - most Irish claims go to court; most claims in the UK don't. This means that there are additional costs here that do not exist in the UK (this one at least can be laid at the door of the insurance companies)

It's just you didn't challenge the first sentence of the quote you took from me- you know, the one where I said Irish drivers are no worse than the average in Europe.

That's because I can't back it up with facts. It would be merely my opinion (an opinion that I do hold, but again, "only my opinion"). You can't back it up with facts either so let's not get into a "mine is bigger than yours but I'm not showing it to you" argument

If I'm just as good a driver as Mr Average in Europe and all other things are equal shouldn't I be paying roughly the same premium as Mr. Average and is it my fault if I'm not? If it's not my fault then who's fault is it?

Answered that in my first post - way back up the page.
If you are just as good as Mr Average in Europe, you really should be paying the same amount in insurance as Monsieur Average, all things being equal. All things are not equal. That's bad, it's unfortunate, it should change. Rather than continue this point, I will refer you back to my first post on the topic.

Bottom line though is:
even if Irish accident rates are the same as in Europe, the fact that Irish insurance companies pay out more money for every accident than companies in other European countries inherently means that Irish insurance rates will be higher. I don't like it, you don't like it. It is very important to see why though, before just complaining about it.


With regard to the actuary tables (which I realise haven't been mentioned by anyone)
Actuary tables are a bunch of arse really. They're just a method of trying to sort people into categories to fix amounts for them to pay in insurance. The extra premium that people pay because they live in a major city could just as easily be an extra premium that people who have blue as their favourite colour might have to pay - it would just be less scientific. Running around to see what cereal people have for breakfast might give us results. More people who eat cornflakes drive fast? Pop up the premium for them, knock it down for people who eat Rice Krispies.

I'm not being sarcastic with the last paragraph - it would work. The current system of having verifiable facts is the easiest to administer.

Lemming

It's all fine and well tackling the insurance companies, since they ARE in gross violation of what dahamsta termed "gross capitalism".

But the courts attitude MUST be altered too. The awards handed out to people in this country are absolutely outrageous. For what might get you a couple of hundred in Britain will get about 5-10000 over here. The problem is that the judicary do not like being dictated to. It "takes away their powers" and they like to be the king in their own courts :rolleyes:

All of this "extra training for young drivers" or "monitoring" equipment is just a MASSIVE PR scam by the unsurance companies to make themselves look like they are everybody's mate - which is absolute horsesh*t of course

Xterminator

Originally posted by cornell babe
i wouold like to point out that fine gael seem to be the party with morst policy and proposals in the whole are of young drivers and insurance. people are so being ripped off and fg have proposed to bring in a insurance ombudsman. with the obvious ineffectiveness of the gardaí uh investigating the gardaí it is obvious that ombudsmen would be good options here.
fg will also give e400 to people who pass an advanced driving test this money could help towards paying for insurance.
and please dont tar all political parties with the same brush;
fg have banned all corporate donations so i really doubt that theres gonna be connections between them and the insurance industry.

Fine Gael have promised everything to everyone, in an apperently vain effort to get elected.

To taxi drivers, compensation fortheir plates, which they bought on the market, knowing the govmt planned deregulation for years.

To eircom shareholders, compensation for their poor judgment in buying shares that were a little overpriced, and for the less easy to forsee crash in telecom share values worldwide.

To Internet users, the promise of Friaco, and Broadband,
To The unemployed , more money, to the sick , more doctors and beds, to the average citizen, a better life, ... ad nausim ....

If you think this means they are the most likely party to implement moto reform, then your a gullible sod, aren't you.

I like you.

X

Hobbes

Originally posted by sceptre


Nor are claims, awards or legal fees



See above.

Not sure if anyone bothered to read my post.

Last Friday the Insurance firms had thier offices raided and documents taken by the goverment who are investigating price rigging on car insurance. So they are quite aware that Irelands rates are excessively high compared to the rest of the EU (which has the same level of claims).

Victor

Originally posted by Mailman
While you and I may not approve of people parking on pavements they have nothing to do with the accident rate until the cars parked on the particular pavements have caused accidents.

I hadn't gone 20 yards when a driver had to screech to a halt when he (eventually) spotted someone coming the other way, just past the parked car. I think this demonstrates a tendancy towards dangerous behavior, that will statisticly be borne out in more accidents and more claims.

Boston

i dont think so

gurramok

Originally posted by Hobbes
Last Friday the Insurance firms had thier offices raided and documents taken by the goverment who are investigating price rigging on car insurance. So they are quite aware that Irelands rates are excessively high compared to the rest of the EU (which has the same level of claims).

About time something like this happened if it was true.
Yesterday i was ringing around for quotes on car insurance, besides the one company gave me the cheapest quote, the 3 other so called competitors amazingly gave exact quotes of €3027 each!!
I'm sure this has happened to alot of people, it is very suspect and re-inforces the cartel scenario.
As Mailman pointed out, accident rates are suspected to be the european average, as car ownership has soared in last 5 years.
It can be seen that the death toll(410-480) has been almost at a consistent average year on year since 1997(dropping since) despite the fact that there are ALOT more cars on the road now.
Stats from National Safety Council and Garda

If court payouts on accidents are high, insurance premiums i accept would be high but not extortionately high like what the companys charge now.
It would make sense if there were sensible premiums, people will have alot more money in their pockets and gov could justify a tax rise to spend money on essential gov depts such as health.
As for gov action on insurance(all kinds), i see it when i believe it
:rolleyes:

Kazujo

It's a bit rediculous that in this day and age there is still only one insurance company insuring motorcycles.

I dont include carole nash as they wont insure you under 21 and even a that you need experience.

ciderandhavoc

I do believe the next Government (with the expected inclusion of Progressive Democrats) will look at the issues. It was a part of their manifesto document, and a big issue particularly for the PDs younger members (and of Ogra too, I do believe they already have a policy document on it).

daveirl

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ciderandhavoc

Well I am already aware of proposed initiatives to make sure younger drivers are better educated on road safety. Others have suggested better driving schemes (like DriversEd in US).

Only by making the roads safer long term will the cost go down. But with a little push from government, it can be speeded up. Making sure Insurance Companies don't exploit younger drivers.

Encourage competition and introduce initiatives to make cover cheaper for younger drivers, as long as the reduction in cost in justified (disallow drivers to have full priviledges, perhaps restrict their cars from speeding above a limit and/or running at certain times to the day [perhaps at night] and not drinking at all.) etc.

I PERSONALLY think government will do something about it in the near future, this administration needs to appeal to younger voters and do something for them, and it need more than dealing with the "grant". Either they do, or the next Sinn Fein led government will (thats a joke, honest!).

Rgds
Dave

Kazujo

Restricting cars should be the first move really alot of accidents are caused by young people speeding/racing and showing off their cars, why should cars with taht much power be allowed on the road.

Look at bikes you have to do a specific test and then wait 2 years before you can drive anything over 33bhp, I know this isn't really monitored but it's a start.

If you limit the age for gettin a high power car or require a special test to even buy the gthings then the fatality rae shbould drop considerably

Aspro

If young drivers are so profitable why don't MIJAG make their own company and rake in the profits. It's a free market.

MIJAG response to that idea:

"PMPA stands for the Private Motorist Protection Association and came out a a movement similar to ours in the 50s. They did exactly what you are suggesting and soon became part of the problem.

MIJAG firmly believes that unless this whole area is tightly regulated by the state or run by them all together and subsidised with public funds, we will not solve this problem. Health Insurance in this country is tightly regulated and in reality subsidised. £3,500million are collected in motoring related taxes each year. 18% of that would pay all the Insurance claims (£650million) in any given year. Therefore it is not un-realistic to argue for some public funds to be used to clear up this mess.

For instance how do you implement our key proposal of all new drivers being charged the average premium and this can only change if an un-safe driving record is set up. That would require a government act in the same way that old people are not charged more for Health Insurance under Community Rating.

Also it is the case despite the profiteering that the vast bulk of insurance premiums are paid out in claims legal fees etc. Anyone who attempts to join the market madness of the Motor Insurance Industry in its present guise would soon get burned.

Our strategy is focuses mainly on the need for Political Change. For that to happen you must first win in the Court of Public Opinion. We seem to have won that battle already and now the TDs are starting to get the message and are talking about doing something about this mess. A good start would be to further expose what is going on now. "

Plain and simple. The insurance industry is a cartel who have conspired to cherry-pick the market in cahoots with the legal profession and rip off young drivers. These vested interests are so intertwined with the political establishment that the issue was ignored until MIJAG and the Socialist Party forced it onto the agenda. The next government would ignore it at their peril.

daveirl

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NutJob

One litre micra name driver aged 20 a year 3rd party

on provisional: £1100 irish
on full licence (same car) : £2200

am if i kept the money i recon i could hit a car a year in the ass and still have enough to get a good night out maby 4 nights

Aspro

Originally posted by daveirl
Oh Wow I bet the government are scared of the socialists. They'll really change things

Well obviously they are when they think it could cost them their Dáil seats and cosy careers.
The water charges were abolished before the last general election precisely because we were the only party to highlight the issue and had come within a whisker of taking a seat in the Dublin West by-election the previous year. Joe Higgins consequently won the seat the next year.
The taxpayer has thus been saved £1000's over the past six years.
The same goes for the issue of bin charges around Dublin. We launched the campaigns against them and are leading the fight for their defeat. Of course the Shinners are trying to claim credit for our work, not only on bin charges, but also MIJAG, but at least the issues are being focussed on.

MIJAG highlighted the issue, organised the car protests and forced the car insurance rip-off issue onto the agenda of every political party in the election. The MIAB report would have been indefinitely put on the long finger by successive governments otherwise. Is it any coincidence that Mary Harney promised in the course of the election that she would tackle the issue if elected back into government? (MIJAG candidate David Green was standing in her constituency).

No one care about Car Insurace. An opinion poll in the last election of issues didn't even rate it.

Ridiculous comment. Tell that to any motorist under the age of 30 and they'll laugh in your face.
We've even got the mainstream media to agree.

Recent articles

1) The recent MIABA report on motor insurance DID NOT find that young males drivers were being overcharged. It did state that young FEMALES were being overcharged.

The most significant indication to date is that young policyholders, who pay the highest rates, produce larger surpluses of premium over claims cost than most of those age 25 and over. This is based on the average of five years data received for the five years 1993 to 1997. The classification of all "drivers under 25" as a non-profitable risk for insurers is now open to question. For example, the margin of premium over claims cost was £211 for ages 22-24 compared to £60 for ages 46-55, or a 258% higher margin. MIAB report

The Irish Insurance Federation Factfile 1998 makes the following contradictory claim on page 27, "The cost of motor insurance for young drivers is justified by their claims experience. In the period from 1992 to 1996, the relative claims cost (a combination of frequency and cost of claims) for non-comprehensive insurance was 97% higher for policyholders aged between 17 and 24 than it was for the 36 to 40 age group. For comprehensive insurance, it was 66% higher for the 17 to 24 age group than for the 36 to 40 group".

It is possible to deduce from these figures that young drivers taken as a group represent approximately twice the average risk. Yet insurance quotes for this group are typically three, four and sometimes up to ten and twelve times the average.

2) If the rates being charged were hugely profitable does it not make sense that ALL the insurance companies would be seeking a slice of the action. Why aren't they?

Young drivers only make up 8% of the market so it would be futile for the insurance industry cartel to open this up to more competition and decrease their profits. This sector is cherry-picked by a few companies while the rest of the market is dealt with by the remainder. The spokespersons of the IIF were, up until now, able to lie and deceive people into believing that this sector was not profitable, and since none of the establishment parties wanted to upset their cronies in the industry the status quo remained.

3) The MIABA report stated that profits of close to £350 million was made over a 15 year period in the whole Irish motor insurance market. This translates into a 4% margin on turnover. Now please tell me of other busineses operating on these margins. Bank of Ireland made close to 4 times as much in 2001 as the whole Irish Motor Insurance market made in 15 years. Rip off. Yea!

Total Premium income for all Car Insurance Companies trading in Ireland during 1997 was €902 million. €780 million was paid out in claims (Source: Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (DETE) Report, 1997)

42% of insurance premium is spent on legal and administration costs in Ireland. Across Europe the average is 10%. In Sweden where very few cases go to the courts, it costs 2%. ( Source: Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment (DETE) Working Group Report on Personal Injury Compensation )

Legal profession is complicit in the rip-off

If the insurance companies are content to lose this margin of their profit to the legal profession that's not the consumer's problem. It's inefficiency and collusion in the rip-off both professions concealed by a web of vested interests and lies.

Everybody acknowledges that costs are extraordinarily high and beyond the means of all except the priviliged few. Futile to suggest that in a market economy that just because we don't like prices that they are wrong.

Cars are not the luxury of the privileged few. They are the necessity of a large proportion of the population (in the absence of a properly funded and run public transport service). Normal market forces do not apply considering we are compelled by law to have car insurance. But just because we live in a market economy does not mean we have no control over what we will pay for goods and services. There are more rational car insurance schemes around the world:

"New Zealand has a one scheme run by the Government (Accident Rehabilitation and Compensation Insurance Corporation or ACC) to cover all kinds of personal injuries. In the case of motoring there is a 2% tax on Petrol and $80 (£40) a year is added to the Car Registration Tax. Based on the 1997/98 annual report 10% of the Schemes turnover pays for legal, administration and other operating costs. This is similar to the running costs of the insurance institutes in Germany or the Danish insurance firms according to the report." (Source: - DETE Report Pages 89,90)

The only reason that young motorists like myself have been screwed up until now is because of weak and unwilling governments who will not take on these vested interests. It take s the will of the people to force them to do this.

daveirl

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