Attention Ostriches!

R.A.McCartney

When Áine Ní Chonnaill tried to launch the Immigration Control Platform in Enis in January 1998, she was attacked for being extremist and alarmist. According to Paul Cullen, writing in the Irish Times

“The Association of Asylum seekers and Refugees compared the
start of the new group to the birth of Nazism... A spokesman, Mr Khalid Ibrahim, said there were 4,000 asylum-seekers in Ireland.“

That year 4,626 people applied for asylum in Ireland, more than doubling the number. Predictably, the Association of Asylum Seekers and Refugees did not issue a statement admitting this, nor have they appologised to the Immigration Control Platform.

In 1992, when Ireland was seen as a poor country, only 33 people applied for asylum in Ireland. Since Ireland has enjoyed an economic boom, the numbers have grown alarmingly. In the last 3 years the number has been over 10,000 per year. Careful investigation of these applications, including numerous appeals, has shown that very few of these people are genuine refugees, yet virtually all are staying in Ireland.

The situation is even worse when one includes legal as well as illegal immigrants. I have always opposed racism & my ancestry is mixed, but I worry about what will happen unless something is done to halt immigration. In most European countries, when people complain about their culture being endangered by immigrants, its just rubbish. But Ireland has a small population, a minute Irish-speaking population, and its taking in more immigrants per head of population than almost any other European country. Already 38pc of births in the Rotunda in Dublin during last August were to non-nationals!

According to http://www.cso.ie/publications/demog/popmig.pdf
"Net immigration (the balance between inward and outward migration) reached a historical highpoint of 26,300 in the year to April 2001...The number of immigrants increased to 46,200 in the year to April 2001 while the number of emigrants declined to a record low of 19,900 in the same period... Returning Irish nationals continue to be the largest immigrant group (39 per cent in the year to April 2001)"

According to the CSO, the number of Irish national in-migrants was 18,018. If all the out-migrants were Irish nationals (figures on the nationality of out-migrants are not collected, but the average age of emigrants is lower than that of immigrants), then there was a net loss of 1,882 Irish nationals & a gain of 28,182 non-Irish nationals. At this rate, in 30 years or so there could be over a million non-Irish primary immigrants in Ireland, and if each of these brought in a spouse and a couple of children, they would outnumber Irish people.

Almost every other developed country in Europe now has tougher laws on asylum and immigration than Ireland. Many of them only recently changed their laws to halt the growing influx of illegal immigrants posing as refugees. Ultra-liberal Denmark was the first country to sign the 1951 UN Refugee Convention. It also has a lower level of asylum applications per head of population than Ireland. Yet Denmark is introducing some of the toughest asylum laws in Europe. According to http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,681538,00.html “If as expected, the new legislation is passed by (the Danish) parliament there will be no legal right to reunification with a spouse at all”. The Guardian also says Denmark will ' seek to return the few refugees it agrees to accept to their country of origin "if the situation changes so that they will no longer be persecuted" '

I've read the Immigration Control Platform's web site at http://www.immigrationcontrol.org/index.htm, and for the most part it seem sensible and well-argued. If they were given a fair hearing, I'm sure most people would agree with them. Unfortunately, the terms of the debate are not fair. The media paint the ICP as a bunch of Nazis, without a single shred of evidence. Pro-immigration extremists receive generous state funding (see http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/ireland/2001/0522/hom32.htm) while the ICP has to raise its own funds. ICP members also face the threat of physical violence. A group calling itself “Anti-Fascist Action” has posted messages on the internet openly boasting that it has used violence against the ICP, & that it will continue to do so. The establishment take draconian action against the supposed threat of political violence by Republicans, yet nothing is being done to protect the ICP.

This week the new anti-immigration party (List Pim Fortuyn) is expected to win around 20% of the vote in ultra-liberal Netherlands. In the Irish general election virtually 100% of the vote will go to pro-immigration parties.

Ostriches will ignore these facts, responsible people will support the Immigration Control Platform.

Biffa Bacon

I'm in favour of strict immigration laws and am opposed to a multicultural / multiracial society. However, I don't think much of Aine O'Chonaill.

bugler

What a bizarre post. Someone who is of "mixed-ancestry", and indeed is now Irish, but who would deny others the right to which his family were kindly given? It's bad enough listening to Irish people in general giving out about immigrants coming to sponge our money and houses, when as a race we've been doing it like no other (relative to size) for the last 200 years. But to have someone who is apparently themselves of immigrant stock to do it? Yes, bizarre.

Now for a couple more of your delightful points. First of all, what the Immigrant groups spokesperson said (and I forget the name of the group already, odd considering it is no doubt over-running my peaceful boidhrín with immigrants as I type) was a piece of misinformation. He didn't accuse the ICP of anything, so I don't know why you think an apology was in order. In politics, if you went around asking for apologies everytime someone said something misleading or untrue then forget about elections, there'd be no time.

In 1992, when Ireland was seen as a poor country, only 33 people applied for asylum in Ireland. Since Ireland has enjoyed an economic boom, the numbers have grown alarmingly. In the last 3 years the number has been over 10,000 per year. Careful investigation of these applications, including numerous appeals, has shown that very few of these people are genuine refugees, yet virtually all are staying in Ireland.

What? Immigrants in seeking better quality of life shock?! Call the Sun! You'll notice, that the Irish immigrant diaspora is surprisingly small around third world countries. It actually doesn't even include such perfectly good havens as Madagascar*. There is a reason for this you see. When people leave the land of their birth, which for anyone who has had to do it is a traumatic, daunting thing, regardless of the reasons for it, they usually seek out a country in which maybe they can get a job that pays something reasonable, or drink clean water. Ireland, well most parts of it, can fulfil these outrageous demands amongst others, therefore we get more immigrants now then we did when any young Irish person who wanted to escape the dole queue had to get the ferry or plane to a different country. I'm sure that little revelation of yours will have shocked the people of boards.ie

Ireland has a small population, a minute Irish-speaking population, and its taking in more immigrants per head of population than almost any other European country. Already 38pc of births in the Rotunda in Dublin during last August were to non-nationals!

I think you'll find that immigrants coming into Ireland are the least likely factor in the fall off in the speaking of Irish. Or were we all using cúpla focail and guarding our pots of gold back in 1991?

Your reasoning is truly magnificent too. Using a one whole month(!) period in which to shock us with the disclosure that 38 percent of babies were born to non-nationals, in one hospital, in one city, in one county. How wide ranging and expansive! Are you a sociologist?! With clear and exact methods like that you must be.

You'd have thought that the heartbreak and emotional poverty scars that emigration left on Ireland's psyche would have left us with a little more understanding of newcomers to this country. Newcomers who, just like we once had to, have given up their friends and families and country of birth to come to this little greedy, narrow minded country. No-one denies that Ireland's immigration system needs shaping up. But unintelligent, misleading and childlike posts like this, and the same behaviour of the ICP do little to aid the situation.

Oh and some of your links are broken, and the ICP make a good argument when it suits them. Re:Irish immigration to Britain for example. The ICP sort of say, "ah well, you know... sure there's really no comparison, I mean.... ..... ..... .. .. .. .."

Oh, and www.americannaziparty.com doesn't curse at anyone either. In fact if you go read it you'll see their arguments sound fair, and reasonable. Most people say that about "Mein Kampf" too. Not that I'm likening mere anti-immigrant groups with Nazi's mind...


* This may be untrue. There may indeed be a thriving Irish-Madagascan community that I am unaware of.

dahamsta

I'm in favour of strict immigration laws

I'm in favour of strict laws too, although not necessarily laws that say, "no, we don't want any immigration". The Government's tendency to simply avoid the issue is embarassing and pathetic though.

and am opposed to a multicultural / multiracial society.

Why? I can't think of any reason against multiculturalism and multiracialism beyond plain, bigoted racism.

adam

seamus

I don't like that Aine NI whatsherface either. She'll probably try get 'citizenship by blood' legislation if she gets in, which is a tad too much like nazism IMHO.

I have no problem with asylum seekers. As long as they get the feck out when they're application is turned down instead of whinging to the Sun about it.

bonkey

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
Ostriches will ignore these facts, responsible people will support the Immigration Control Platform.

This entire post reads like either a Party Political Broadcast, or some similar sales pitch. It has also been reported to the mods for this and other reasons.

Unfortunately, R.A.McCartney does not appear to have an option available to be PMed by, so I cant take this off-thread like I would like to.

So...to R.A.McCartney - please clarify what, if any, your relationship with the ICP is. I'll give you 48 hours to respond. If I havent heard from you by then, I will assume that this post was just blatant party promotional propaganda, and will close/delete the thread.

I've read the Immigration Control Platform's web site at [url]http://[/url] www.immigrationcontrol.org/index.htm, and for the most part it seem sensible and well- argued.

You've done more than just read it. At the very least, you would appear to have a link to it off your own web-site , as the top of your politics links, which would indicate at least that this hasnt been a recent discovery of yours....which in turn would lead me to question the timing of this post....which is why it smacks of party-political broadcasting to me.

If you're interested in discussing the points you raise, then discuss them. If you are only making quick advertising-run visits, then there's no space here thank you very much.

jc

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by dahamsta

Why? I can't think of any reason against multiculturalism and multiracialism beyond plain, bigoted racism.

Because it causes divisions in society.

Also, I can't think of any reason in favour of multiculturalism, apart from an inferiority complex whereby we have to have a multicultural society because the big boys and girls in Europe and America have multicultural societies.

Victor

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Because it causes divisions in society.

What types of divisions are you referring to?

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Also, I can't think of any reason in favour of multiculturalism, apart from an inferiority complex whereby we have to have a multicultural society because the big boys and girls in Europe and America have multicultural societies.

And what of the inferiority complex where people are intolerable of perhaps 2% non-nationals?

Victor

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
According to http://www.cso.ie/publications/demog/popmig.pdf
"Net immigration (the balance between inward and outward migration) reached a historical highpoint of 26,300 in the year to April 2001...The number of immigrants increased to 46,200 in the year to April 2001 while the number of emigrants declined to a record low of 19,900 in the same period... Returning Irish nationals continue to be the largest immigrant group (39 per cent in the year to April 2001)"

According to the CSO, the number of Irish national in-migrants was 18,018. If all the out-migrants were Irish nationals (figures on the nationality of out-migrants are not collected, but the average age of emigrants is lower than that of immigrants), then there was a net loss of 1,882 Irish nationals & a gain of 28,182 non-Irish nationals. At this rate, in 30 years or so there could be over a million non-Irish primary immigrants in Ireland, and if each of these brought in a spouse and a couple of children, they would outnumber Irish people.

You are misrepresenting the figures. Those figures include Irish and non-Irish people, you cannot assume that everyone leaving the country last year was Irish (hey the ICP say people were deported and they make up part of the figure).

You refer to average age, this is over thousands of people, not a small coherent group, and merely represents (largely) the number of Irish people who emigrated in the eighties and are now returning. You are also ignoring births in the equation (eqaul to migration in it's contribution to population growth).

The ICP's own website list about 10,000 asylum seekers a year, which includes all (adults and children), so it would take hundreds of years to be 'overwhelmed'. And oh, look practically every person in Ireland has foreign ancestors if you go back a few hundred years.

Victor

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
Already 38pc of births in the Rotunda in Dublin during last August were to non-nationals!

This figure has been disputed, do you have any back up?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=384835&highlight=maternity

Sand

What types of divisions are you referring to?

The divisions encoutered by the U.S. , Britian, France and so on. The institutional racism in police forces and other government agencies. Racially motivated crime and rioting. The ghettoisation and so on. All divisions countries with far more resources and more experience in tackling these divisions have been unable to solve. To the point where Le Pen can run for president playing on these divisions in France. Apart from the "feel good" of taking economic migrants in as refugees what exactly is the benefit to Ireland?

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
The divisions encoutered by the U.S. , Britian, France and so on. The institutional racism in police forces and other government agencies. Racially motivated crime and rioting. The ghettoisation and so on.

LOL. And so we come full circle.

Adam started us off by pointing out that

Why? I can't think of any reason against multiculturalism and multiracialism beyond plain, bigoted racism.

Biffa answers this "why" with :

Because it causes divisions in society.

which Victor counters by asking :

What types of divisions are you referring to?

And what divisions do we get? The racist-motivated ones which started the whole point!!

IN other words - the reasons besides gross bigoted racism are racist ones. Huh???

Personally, I do not accept the problems caused by racism as grounds to prevent multiculturalism. Its racism to avoid racism. The only advantage is that we dont have to suffer "active" racism on our doorstep, because we can keep all the foreigners out.

Hey - thats a great solution. If we keep all the races and cultures seperate, there'll be no racism!

Uh-huh. Riiiiight.

jc

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Also, I can't think of any reason in favour of multiculturalism

Better cuisine and a desperately needed injection of new blood into the gene pool.

But especially better cuisine.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Victor
What types of divisions are you referring to?

Multiculturalism by its very nature is divisive as we have different sections of the population adhering to different cultures.

And what of the inferiority complex where people are intolerable of perhaps 2% non-nationals?

I don't see how that is evident of an inferiority complex. And what does the 2% refer to? How many we have now or will have or what?

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Better cuisine and a desperately needed injection of new blood into the gene pool.

Well I've always thought a good immigration policy would be "Come in if you're good looking". So Japs, Spanish and Jewish women only I think.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Multiculturalism by its very nature is divisive as we have different sections of the population adhering to different cultures.

Not really. I think I’ve blended in rather well.

btw, which culture should get to stay in Ireland - Catholic, Protestant, Jewish...

mike65

Originally posted by Victor

What types of divisions are you referring to?

And what of the inferiority complex where people are intolerable of perhaps 2% non-nationals?

Victor, were you stating that 2% of the population is non-Irish
or that 2% of the non-Irish population might be objected to?

Mike.

Sand

IN other words - the reasons besides gross bigoted racism are racist ones. Huh???

Yeah that interpretation gets a huh? from me too

People can oppose immigration/multi culturalism cos they think foreigners look and smell funny or whatever - i.e. Gross Bigoted Racism. I look at multi cultural societies like Britian and I see race riots, divisions in society and weakening of instititutions by shouts of "racism!!!", murders that are racially motivated like Steven Lawrence's. I only see trouble and costs Ireland doesnt need. I consider it practical to avoid such problems. Mightnt be politically correct but Im not terribly bothered by that tbh.

I see no benefits to multi culturalism, I see lots of disadvantages and the only reason that people can come up with is that its politically correct and we can get a better curry. I just cant counter that

Hey - thats a great solution. If we keep all the races and cultures seperate, there'll be no racism!

If we shove all the races in together in the same city/neighbourhood/street therell be no racism!

Uh-huh. Riiiight.

DeVore

Jesus I cant wait for more multicultural multiethnical people to arrive to water down the pig ignorant, backward, redneck, LAZY attitude of the natives.

seriously.

DeV.

Ruaidhri

Jesus I cant wait for more multicultural multiethnical people to arrive to water down the pig ignorant, backward, redneck, LAZY attitude of the natives.

umm it's here already,and ireland cant take it at all ( think travellers)
Ireland is slow to take any form of change,as seen in 1590's when the plantations started(extreme example i know). what makes you think now that we will open our arms to every other culture on the planet after our previous experiances(BTW i'm NOT racist,just saying what i think is happening).Ireland will do it's best to oppose immigration, we are used to tourists,staying a while, but when they want to stay for longer?

[edit] dev's comment in it's self is racist [edit]

Boston

Originally posted by DeVore
Jesus I cant wait for more multicultural multiethnical people to arrive to water down the pig ignorant, backward, redneck, LAZY attitude of the natives.

seriously.

DeV.

Since you didnt address this ill take it your taking to the orginal poster, and even if your not this applies to bonkey.

I love the way someone cant voice and opinion stating that they are not happy with the immigration policy in this country, without being compared to a nazi. Its a god damn joke, and to do so only humanises and normalises what the nazis where.

many people in this country dont like immigrants, are they all racists, many have very good reasons. If i hate god some for that same reason i would hate a white person, am i a racist?

I notice now adays that old comments of lazy, stupid, druken, lay abouts is being used in connection to these people, well this is not a first in irish history, often those coming from deprived areas where refered to in this fashion, and often it was true(personal experience) now that many immigrates are moving into the same area, does that make these "facts" any less true.

some of these people ive meet are nice, some are downright annoying while others scum is the olny word i can think of, if that makes me a racist then that makes you a hypocrite

Sand

And what of the inferiority complex where people are intolerable of perhaps 2%

Let's be clear. "Fitting in" to Irish culture entails drinking non-stop, eating bad food, having no dress sense, and being unable to dance.

An inferiority complex (wait for the flames) can work both ways.

Still though its clear that supporting immigration, multi culturalism and the introduction of new curry recipes and dance moves is a "Good Thing", and opposing the above (for whatever reason) clearly makes you a "racist nazi bastard". Debate over. I wonder how extremists are able to exploit peoples insecurities and problems when the establishment encourages such widespread debate of immigration? Its a real mystery.

shotamoose

Originally posted by Boston
I love the way someone cant voice and opinion stating that they are not happy with the immigration policy in this country, without being compared to a nazi. Its a god damn joke, and to do so only humanises and normalises what the nazis where.

Note that I'm not accusing you of Nazism, but it's always worth remembering that the Nazis and the millions of Germans who supported and aided them were normal human beings. These things all start somewhere. People are highly sensitive about attitudes to immigration because even casual stereotyping and dehumanising can lead to violence, entrenched inequality, and so on.

The Corinthian

Ireland is a multicultural nation. Always has been. English is hardly indigenous, for a start. Neither is Christianity. Or horses. You think the ancient Celts founded Dublin?

In fact the Irish are even racially a mixture of Celtic, Viking, Norman and Anglo-Saxon - to name but a few. All groups who came to Ireland and became “more Irish than the Irish themselves”.

In fairness, I can see the danger with multiculturalism. The above began as alien cultures, but were integrated into and became part of Irish culture. Both cultures changed and became one. Where a new culture enters a nation and, for whatever reason, fails to integrate into the culture, that’s where one gets the problems. As Ruaidhri already exemplified, we have Travellers in Ireland – a separate sub-culture that has never integrated into the mainstream.

Ghettoised cultures, or sub-cultures, are not good. They generally represent a separate grouping that feels little or no allegiance or responsibility to the nation in which they live in. This may not be due to any fault of their own, but that does not make it any better. And indeed, it is sometimes the new culture that is the one unwilling to mix.

Where multiculturalism has failed, it has invariably been due to the inability of the new culture to integrate with, and indeed alter, the indigenous culture - and visa versa.

The extreme, or more correctly ridiculous, should not be taken as an excuse to ignore possibly valid argument against immigration. Also, the economic arguments that would generally be used against immigration, are a separate issue, and should not be confused with the issue of multiculturalism. To view this issue from racist or anti-racist poles would bee too glib.

With regard to Áine Ní Chonnaill and her supporters, they are a subculture within Ireland - the remnants of a culture that has already changed and moved on. Rabid, psudo-nationalistic Catholicism has always caused me amusement, if only because of the inherent contradictions of advocating stopping Eastern Europeans from immigrating here, while simultaneously going to trips to Rome so as to bow to one.

Personally, I’ve always preferred being a half-breed to a half-wit, myself.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by shotamoose
People are highly sensitive about attitudes to immigration because even casual stereotyping and dehumanising can lead to violence, entrenched inequality, and so on.

As someone on the receiving end of a fair bit of that sort of thing throughout my life, I'd like to point out that you're talking complete crap.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian
btw, which culture should get to stay in Ireland - Catholic, Protestant, Jewish...

All of them. They've all been here for centuries.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Von
Like the vast majority of people in the republic, liberalism and respect for other cultures (even prods!) and nationalities (even the bloody brits!) are values I was brought up with. If anyone does not share those views then perhaps it's they who refuse to "fit in" to Irish society.

I respect other races and cultures. I don't see why we need them living here though.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Sand

I wonder how extremists are able to exploit peoples insecurities and problems when the establishment encourages such widespread debate of immigration? Its a real mystery.

Nice one Sand.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Ireland is a multicultural nation. Always has been. English is hardly indigenous, for a start. Neither is Christianity. Or horses. You think the ancient Celts founded Dublin?

No it's not. We don't have a separate Celtic community, a separate Viking community, a separate Norman community etc.
The only significant separate cultural community in Ireland then is the Ulster Protestant community, who integrated so well we had to create another country for them to live in.

Just to clarify, when I say I am opposed to multiracialism and multiculturalism, I'm not saying I don't want any other races or cultures living here. I just don't want so many of them that we have to start making special provisions for them as a separate community.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
All of them. They've all been here for centuries.

Then you accept that while they were not always part of 'Irish Culture', given their longevity of tenure, they are now?

And do you feel they have, on balance, contributed positively?

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Then you accept that while they were not always part of 'Irish Culture', given their longevity of tenure, they are now?

Protestants in the Republic, yes. Not in the North.

And do you feel they have, on balance, contributed positively?

No. The Ulster plantations were an absolute disaster for Ireland, leading to continuous conflict over the next four centuries.