Attention Ostriches!

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

No it's not. We don't have a separate Celtic community, a separate Viking community, a separate Norman community etc.

Ireland is a multicultural nation - It is the accumulation of the many cultures that have lived here and interacted throughout the centuries.

All nations evolve so, a point often forgotten by many of us.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Protestants in the Republic, yes. Not in the North.

No. The Ulster plantations were an absolute disaster for Ireland, leading to continuous conflict over the next four centuries.

What about the Jews? Or Protestants in the Republic? You're evading the question with exceptions.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian

Ireland is a multicultural nation - It is the accumulation of the many cultures that have lived here and interacted throughout the centuries.

But they have no separate identity, which is what I understand by multiculturalism.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian
What about the Jews? Or Protestants in the Republic?

Yes ok they're great.

You're evading the question with exceptions.

A pretty major exception!

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
But they have no separate identity, which is what I understand by multiculturalism.

But they did not always fit in - but they did eventually.

We all have separate identities - Northsiders, Southsiders, Corkonians, Culchies, etc. The GAA would be out of business otherwise. And I don't go to a Synagogue on the weekend? Do you? Isn’t that a separate identity?

You really have to sit down and think about how you define multiculturalism Biffa. I don’t want to sound condescending, as I don’t, but you don’t sound as if you’ve really thought it out yet.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Yes ok they're great.

So you'd throw them out if they arrived today?

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian
But they did not always fit in - but they did eventually.

It was easier for Vikings, Normans etc. to be assimilated as they were all white races. It is much harder for darker-skinned people to be assimilated.

We all have separate identities - Northsiders, Southsiders, Corkonians, Culchies, etc. The GAA would be out of business otherwise. And I don't go to a Synagogue on the weekend? Do you? Isn’t that a separate identity?

Yes we all have different identities to some extent or another but Northsiders, Southsiders, Corkonians, Culchies etc would all see themselves as Irish. Northsiders, Southsiders, Corkonians, Culchies etc do not exist anywhere else other than Ireland. Immigrants would see themselves as Nigerian-Irish or Romanian-Irish and that distinction would always persist.

You really have to sit down and think about how you define multiculturalism Biffa. I don’t want to sound condescending, as I don’t, but you don’t sound as if you’ve really thought it out yet.

You're probably right there, it is hard to define exactly what I mean, but it would be helpful if those who see multiculturalism as a "good thing" could give us their definition.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian

So you'd throw them out if they arrived today?

I'd apply the same criteria to letting them in as I would to letting anyone else in.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
It was easier for Vikings, Normans etc. to be assimilated as they were all white races. It is much harder for darker-skinned people to be assimilated.

Because they looked different? That’s actually quite relative, at the time that they arrived in Ireland they might as well have been Martians for the racial similarity they shared with the indigenous population. By the way, Jews (who you described as great are fairly dark skinned too. They managed.

Yes we all have different identities to some extent or another but Northsiders, Southsiders, Corkonians, Culchies etc would all see themselves as Irish.

That’s a bit of a U-turn on your previous argument.

Immigrants would see themselves as Nigerian-Irish or Romanian-Irish and that distinction would always persist.

Linke the term Anglo-Irish perchance?

You're probably right there, it is hard to define exactly what I mean, but it would be helpful if those who see multiculturalism as a "good thing" could give us their definition.

You already said it yourself - “they’re great”.

None of those groups considered themselves Irish originally. And now they do. And they have added much to the culture and life of this nation. Yet were they to arrive today you would throw them out.

There are certainly valid arguments against multiculturalism and immigration, but not those being exposed by you. I believe your premise is primarily xenophobic and the arguments are induced from that. As such they lack reason.

R.A.McCartney

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
I'm in favour of strict immigration laws and am opposed to a multicultural / multiracial society. However, I don't think much of Aine O'Chonaill.

Why do you have a low opinion of her? I think she's shown great courage in taking up the issue publicly in the face of so much hostility. I also think she argues her case very well.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian

Because they looked different? That’s actually quite relative, at the time that they arrived in Ireland they might as well have been Martians for the racial similarity they shared with the indigenous population.

Come on now. There might have been a few more blonds among them but that's about it.

By the way, Jews (who you described as great are fairly dark skinned too. They managed.

Actually they didn't really. Jews never fully integrate, no matter where they go.

That’s a bit of a U-turn on your previous argument.

Well maybe it is but as I've said it can be hard to explain exactly what you mean.

Linke the term Anglo-Irish perchance?

There isn't really any distinct "Anglo-Irish" community in Ireland. It really just describes people whose ancestors were big landlords a century ago.

And they have added much to the culture and life of this nation.

Only those groups that have integrated fully. People from Nigeria or Romania aren't necessarily going to integrate to the same degree. And you're ignoring the Ulster-Scots, whose presence in Ireland has been an absolute disaster historically.

I believe your premise is primarily xenophobic and the arguments are induced from that.

I think that's unfair. I can only say that I don't dislike anyone on account of their race, ethnicity or nationality.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney


Why do you have a low opinion of her? I think she's shown great courage in taking up the issue publicly in the face of so much hostility. I also think she argues her case very well.

The language she uses can be too extreme. I don't think it does her cause any favours.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
Come on now. There might have been a few more blonds among them but that's about it.

I wonder what a blond would look like so someone who’d never seen one before?

As for the Celts and how they looked: "[Queen Boudicca of the Iceni] was huge of frame and terrifying of aspect with a harsh voice. A great mass of bright red hair fell to her knees." - Dio Cassius.

Actually they didn't really. Jews never fully integrate, no matter where they go.

Are you retracting your previous assertion that “they’re great” then?

Well maybe it is but as I've said it can be hard to explain exactly what you mean.

What I mean is how can you accept your own arguments if they are so blatantly contradicting?

There isn't really any distinct "Anglo-Irish" community in Ireland. It really just describes people whose ancestors were big landlords a century ago.

They would disagree.

Only those groups that have integrated fully. People from Nigeria or Romania aren't necessarily going to integrate to the same degree. And you're ignoring the Ulster-Scots, whose presence in Ireland has been an absolute disaster historically.

That’s an assumption, and a questionable one at that. I’ve went to school with a chap of Romanian decent (long before it was unfashionable to be so). He integrated well.

As for the Ulster-Scots; they forcibly colonized, not immigrated.

I think that's unfair. I can only say that I don't dislike anyone on account of their race, ethnicity or nationality.

Unfortunately your arguments are not coherent. The appear to begin with the premise that multicultural is bad and then grasp at reasons for this to be true. When these reasons are negated, you grasp at new arguments. There are valid arguments as I’ve said against multicultural societies, but you’ve not espoused them.

Hence, the only alternative is that the bases for your arguments are irrational and emotive. That does point towards a dislike anyone on account of his or her race, ethnicity or nationality. It is difficult to avoid that conclusion when faced with your reasoning.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
Why do you have a low opinion of her? I think she's shown great courage in taking up the issue publicly in the face of so much hostility. I also think she argues her case very well.

In fairness I'll read up on her arguments, before damning/exalting her. My (emotive) gut would be that she would be another one of these Roman Catholic fanatics that would force us all to work on the land and speak in Irish. This is an unfair assumption, although experience has taught me probably correct, without further investigation.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Von
Obviously ignorant of Irish history. Sounds like you need citizenship classes.

Ok, go on. Educate me.

Hahaha. I'll tell my jewish friends to "fully integrate" or else.

Dunno what you're on about.

That's an ignorant prejudiced view.

Why?

Anyway, neither are Brits or Italians going to necessarily "integrate fully."

Then we shouldn't let them in in large numbers.

Who cares. I don't.

I do.

What does "full integration" mean anyway? Conforming to a pathetically insular (probably sexually repressed) view of Oirishness that is a mix of fantasy and childishness? Who's the model of Oirishry the wogs should copy? Jackie Healy-Rae?

Hehe, spot on.
Nah, I just mean that they should no longer view themselves as Nigerian or Romanian or wherever they come from.

Nicking all the land, and selling the peasants they didn't kill into slavery more than likely had something to do with it.

But the fact remains that when immigrant groups don't fully integrate into society it causes trouble down the line.

...but you don't want to see nig nogs in the streets in case they stick you in a pot and eat you.

I don't have a problem with "nig nogs" in the streets and I don't have a problem with letting a few of them into country, I just don't want a lot of them in so they start forming separate communities, unintegrated into society.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by The Corinthian
I wonder what a blond would look like so someone who’d never seen one before?

I'm sure we had a few of our own homegrown blonds back in them days.

Are you retracting your previous assertion that “they’re great” then?

No. I'm sure most of the immigrants in this country are nice people too, it's just that when there are large ethnic minorities in a country it causes problems. There has never been a large Jewish community in Ireland.

What I mean is how can you accept your own arguments if they are so blatantly contradicting?

I don't see what is contradictory about them.

They would disagree.

Well I've never met anyone who would consider themselves Anglo-Irish, and if there are, I'm sure it's a very small number of people.

That’s an assumption, and a questionable one at that. I’ve went to school with a chap of Romanian decent (long before it was unfashionable to be so). He integrated well.

Again, it's not a problem when there are only a few of them. It's only when there's lots of them that non-integration becomes a problem.

As for the Ulster-Scots; they forcibly colonized, not immigrated.

As I said to Von, the fact remains they didn't integrate and that has caused major problems.

There are valid arguments as I’ve said against multicultural societies, but you’ve not espoused them.

What are they then?
And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what's so great about a multicultural society, except that the PC mafia tell us it would be a great sign of our machoority altogether begob.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
I'm sure we had a few of our own homegrown blonds back in them days.

No many. Blond hair isn’t even an Aryan trait in origin.

I don't see what is contradictory about them.

You first argue that the right of Jews was based upon the fact that ”They've all been here for centuries” – now it’s because they didn’t arrive in enough numbers.

Well I've never met anyone who would consider themselves Anglo-Irish, and if there are, I'm sure it's a very small number of people.

But demonstrating a level of diversity that you denied existed earlier in the thread.

Again, it's not a problem when there are only a few of them. It's only when there's lots of them that non-integration becomes a problem.

Again immigration volume is your new argument - please back it up.

As I said to Von, the fact remains they didn't integrate and that has caused major problems.

The Germans didn’t integrate well in Poland in 1939 either or the Europeans in America. Is that the same kind of immigration?

What are they then?
And I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what's so great about a multicultural society, except that the PC mafia tell us it would be a great sign of our machoority altogether begob.

You have to figure out the pros and cons on your own. All I’m going to do is point out when you’re speaking without reason, in the hope you’ll work it out for yourself.

Hobbes

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
In 1992, when Ireland was seen as a poor country, only 33 people applied for asylum in Ireland. Since Ireland has enjoyed an economic boom, the numbers have grown alarmingly.

Hmm, but if the large numbers will destroy our boom then we will go back to a small amount of people wanting to enter and more will immigrate? But if the boom gets better then we can blame those immigrants?

So it's a win-win situation?! Woo-woo!

You know I used to think Irish people were pretty open-minded but since coming back from the US they are just as Xenophobic as lots of other countries. Some of the crap I've heard just amazes me (the worst being a person I know claiming Chinese people eat babies! she was deadly serious as well).

Illegal immigration = bad.
people who immigrate with the intent of adding to society = good.

I'm not against immigration but I do believe the laws shouldn't be as lax as they are. Beyond that I don't have people coming to Ireland to live.

Sand

Im still waiting to see a good argument for multiculturalism that doesnt involve dance moves. If a solid reason for it cant be found perhaps its not all that desirable before we even consider the associated problems.

Ireland isnt diverse. The one ethnic group we couldnt assimilate into an overall Irish identity led to the partition of the country. While we dont have any census returns from the 10th century its safe to assume that given the dangers involved with travel in those days meant that the Vikings werent all that numberous - The first generation would have been Vikings settling in Ireland, the second generation would have been Vikings born in Ireland, the third generation would be undistinguishable from the Gaelic Irish. The same process occured for the Normans who were accused of being more Irish than the Irish themselves after a few generations. The plantations came and suddenly up sprang a large amount of people who arrived with a sustainable culture which wasnt Irish. Whilst to a large extent the cultures have blended in the South where plantations either failed or were assimilated by the native culture - again failing in their original purpose to create an Ireland of English and Scots, the fact that the North, which was the region of the single most effective influx of a non-Irish culture, is still riven with hate sown 400 years ago doesnt say a great deal about multi culturalism.

Corinthian makes the point that the planters arrived in taking land etc - fair enough- that would lead to bitterness - but after a few generations it should basically die out, shouldnt it? An exiled Plaestinian can show his son where the land he was driven off in 1948 is. Can a republican in Belfast show his son where his Great great great..........great great grandfathers land was today? So why is the hate still there? Its a clash of cultures- they havent integrated, theres a them and us and thats all human nature needs to pick a fight if were honest. A similar thinking leads to the ghettoisation and rioting and crime that weve seen in Britain and other countries. Weve got ample evidence of the problems associated with multiculturalism and the costs associated with them. We havent got a lot of evidence of the benefits, beyond funky dance moves of course.

johnKarma

i think we have to accept that multiculturalism is in evitable in this country, to a certain extent at least. if we are to take our commitments to the UN (the geneva convention in particular) seriously we must take in asylum seekers.

the reason that so many asylum seekers turn out to be in fact economic migrants is that ireland does not have anything approaching a proper immigration system. we are one of the only countries in the world that does not have an annual quota-based immigration system, and this in a time whren there was a labour SHORTAGE in the country?

multiculturalism can be destructive. look to britain where poor management of immigration led to disastrous segregation and the race riots we saw last year. parties like the BNP thrive on the sense of unease cretated when local communities are left swamped, lost in a sea of alien culture.

some cultures (as evidenced by the asian communities in britain) are resistant to integration, the net result being division and violence. recently, the british government has proposed that a naturalisation programme be compulsory for new entrants to the country.

why not adopt a similar strategy here? we should try to benefit from multiculturalism as much as we can, and try to avoid its more destructive element.

bonkey

Originally posted by Boston
Since you didnt address this ill take it your taking to the orginal poster, and even if your not this applies to bonkey.

I love the way someone cant voice and opinion stating that they are not happy with the immigration policy in this country, without being compared to a nazi. Its a god damn joke, and to do so only humanises and normalises what the nazis where.

This applies to me? Excuse me to fsck, but I challenge you to point out a single case anywhere on these boards where I have ever compared anyone to a nazi.

On the other hand, if you're being deliberately provocative just to say "why do diss people who dislike the current situation", then I think you should edit your post and make it a bit more polite. Funny - you're saying that nazi comparisons are what normalises what the nazi's were, and so far, you are the only person to use the term in here.

May I take it, therefore, that you are the one normalising what the nazi's did??? Given that you're posting about it, that would either rmean you want it normalised, or that you're being hypocritical - criticising others for what you are the only person guilty of in this thread.

I'll leave the choice of which it is to you. Alternately, I'll accept an apology that this, in fact, does not apply to me.

jc

Biffa Bacon

No many. Blond hair isn’t even an Aryan trait in origin.

If you say so.
The fact remains though that immigrant groups all over the world tend not to integrate into the societies to which they migrate, whether that’s Europeans in Africa or Asians in Europe or whatever.
Possibly one reason the Vikings and Normans did integrate was because mostly it would have just been the men coming over to kick our heads in. Then they would have settled down with a nice Irish cailín. These days, however, it’s whole families coming over, which makes integration a lot harder.

You first argue that the right of Jews was based upon the fact that ”They've all been here for centuries” – now it’s because they didn’t arrive in enough numbers.

I said I wouldn’t kick the Jews out because they’ve been here for centuries. The fact that they didn’t come here in great numbers means that their failure to integrate hasn’t been a problem.

But demonstrating a level of diversity that you denied existed earlier in the thread.

I denied that we’ve always had a multicultural society. A small number of people considering themselves Anglo-Irish hardly makes us a multicultural society.

Again immigration volume is your new argument - please back it up.

The more immigrants from a particular group there are, the less likely they are to integrate as it’s easier then for them to form a separate community.

The Germans didn’t integrate well in Poland in 1939 either or the Europeans in America. Is that the same kind of immigration?

I guess not. The circumstances of immigration do affect the likelihood of integration and the success of peaceful co-existence.

You have to figure out the pros and cons on your own. All I’m going to do is point out when you’re speaking without reason, in the hope you’ll work it out for yourself.

Yes Master Yoda.

Victor

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
I just don't want so many of them that we have to start making special provisions for them as a separate community.

Special provision? Can you give us some examples of special provision?

Victor

Originally posted by Hobbes
You know I used to think Irish people were pretty open-minded but since coming back from the US they are just as Xenophobic as lots of other countries. Some of the crap I've heard just amazes me (the worst being a person I know claiming Chinese people eat babies! she was deadly serious as well).

http://www.snopes2.com/horrors/cannibal/fetus.htm

bonkey

I find it slightly amusing that people against multiculturalism are generally against immigration, but not tourism.

Every summer we get inundated with foreigners whose influence is most definitely felt. Similarly, most Irish would think nothing of going on a foreign holiday. I cant think of the last time I saw someone not say "you lucky bastid" to someone planning on (for example) a 6-month trans-Asian holiday.

Let me guess - "but thats different". Sure - different cultures are all well and good to visit, but they shouldnt come here to stay. We ge cultural influence from tourism - we get multiculturalism. What we dont get is multiple cultures.

I'm also guessing that every single person who is against multiculturism would also agree that every nation in the world should also shut its borders against Irish emigrants (one of which is myself, I would add, lest anyone accuse me of concealing a vested interest in this discussion). Have you ever though that the Ireland you know exists because of emigration - it has been a singularly important feature in our culture for the past few generations, and in part has shaped our country. It is not untrue to say that part of the reason you can complain about immigration into affluent Ireland is because other nations allowed our people to emigrate.

The problem is not multiculturalism. Be honest. The problem is that there are certain cultures that people are unwilling to accept. Its not that you dont want a mix...its that you dont want certain elements in it.

I agree. There are certain elements which should not be let into Ireland. However, they are not defined by race, creed, or colour. It has nothing to do with cultures, unless you consider crime a culture.

Sand argued earlier that while it may not be pc, it is "easier" or "better" to avoid the problem than to try and solve it. At least, thats the meaning I took out of his words. Unfortunately I cannot agree. This is persecuting the innocent because we are unwilling to deal with the guilty. That is not a society I want to live in, nor one I could support.

jc

mike65

Some time last year I e-mailed the CSO regarding the number on non-nationals resident here, the figure I got back was about 270,000 from, I presume, the 1991 census. Given the last 10
years one can only belive that figure is up by a good/bad 50%.

So this discusion is pretty much accademic, its already happening
and wont be stopped. True most of the third of a million will be white Europeans/Americans/other anglos but, hey they're from
differenet cultures with sometimes very different attitudes, like beliving in effecient public services, honest politians...crazy stuff!

Or they may have diverse views on sexual/social mores and practices but it seems if they're white and "Christian" thats okay judging by some of the posts here.

Mike.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Sand
Im still waiting to see a good argument for multiculturalism that doesnt involve dance moves.

As a catalyst for social evolution, or rather to avoid social stagnation is one potential reason. A larger, and hence preferable, gene pool for the breeding population is another.

Biffa Bacon

Special provision? Can you give us some examples of special provision?

“Special provision” is probably the wrong term. I just mean that we would have to start accepting that there is no dominant unifying national and cultural identity in Ireland.

Biffa Bacon

I find it slightly amusing that people against multiculturalism are generally against immigration, but not tourism…Let me guess - "but thats different".

Yes of course it is. Why not?

I'm also guessing that every single person who is against multiculturism would also agree that every nation in the world should also shut its borders against Irish emigrants

Whether they do or don’t is entirely up to those countries. They would certainly be within their rights to do so.

Have you ever though that the Ireland you know exists because of emigration - it has been a singularly important feature in our culture for the past few generations, and in part has shaped our country. It is not untrue to say that part of the reason you can complain about immigration into affluent Ireland is because other nations allowed our people to emigrate.

True, but the circumstances of the countries to which Irish people emigrated are different to the ones we find ourselves in now in Ireland. These countries needed people to populate empty territory and/or a supply of cheap labour.

The problem is not multiculturalism. Be honest. The problem is that there are certain cultures that people are unwilling to accept. Its not that you dont want a mix...its that you dont want certain elements in it.

I’ll be honest and say that there is no ethnic, racial or religious group that I would not want to see in Ireland. I just don’t want them in large enough numbers that we have to start calling our society “multicultural”.

Biffa Bacon

So this discusion is pretty much accademic, its already happening
and wont be stopped.

How do you know? We live in a democracy don’t we? We can choose to change the situation if we want.