Attention Ostriches!

Biffa Bacon

As a catalyst for social evolution, or rather to avoid social stagnation is one potential reason.

How is multiculturalism a necessary condition for social evolution, or avoiding stagnation? Evolution in which direction?

A larger, and hence preferable, gene pool for the breeding population is another.

Surely that’s multiracialism rather than multiculturalism.

The Corinthian

How is multiculturalism a necessary condition for social evolution, or avoiding stagnation? Evolution in which direction?

I don't know if it is a necessary condition, that's why I called it a catalyst. Still, I doubt if you'll deny that external input into an enclosed system engender change, however.

Which direction? Good question. Depends how you foster it.

Surely that’s multiracialism rather than multiculturalism.

Not in all cases - boy from Cardiff marrys girl from Galway; same race, different culture (depending on how you define same and different, of course).

R.A.McCartney

Originally posted by bugler
what the Immigrant groups spokesperson said... was a piece of misinformation. He didn't accuse the ICP of anything, so I don't know why you think an apology was in order.

If the ICP had the money to prosecute for defamation, the court would not agree with your artificial distinction between misinformation and accusation. As I stated in my original post, Paul Cullen, writing in the Irish Times wrote that the spokesman “compared the start of the new group to the birth of Nazism”. That was an unjustifiable slur which for which his organisation should have appologised. The Nazis invaded other countries and attempted to exterminate whole ethnic groups. Opposition to immigration was not even a Nazi policy. On the contrary, they imported millions of slave labourers to work in Germany.

Originally posted by bugler
I think you'll find that immigrants coming into Ireland are the least likely factor in the fall off in the speaking of Irish.

The establishment of large communities which speak different languages would inevitably affect the position of the Irish language. Instead of being one of only two languages spoken in Ireland, it would become one of many languages which are spoken in addition to English, and possibly the one with the fewest number of native speakers. I also believe that most in these new immigrant communities will attach little importance to the revival of Irish & will exert an influence to divert resources to other issues.

Originally posted by bugler
Using a one whole month(!) period in which to shock us with the disclosure that 38 percent of babies were born to non-nationals

One month is as good as another, unless you are trying to suggest that all immigrants have their babies in August.

Originally posted by bugler
Newcomers who, just like we once had to, have given up their friends and families and country of birth to come

1.You have not left Ireland, so you have not given up your family and friends (assuming you had any friends in the first place, which seems doubtful given your obvious hatred of other Irish people).
2.These immigrants have also not necessarily given up their immediate family, since many will apply to bring them into the country once they have established a legal right to be here.

Originally posted by bugler
this little greedy, narrow minded country.

You seem to have a violent dislike of Irish people. Perhaps this is a symptom of displaced self-loathing. You should ask your doctor to refer you to a psychiatrist. Sometimes people like you can be helped.

Originally posted by bugler
No-one denies that Ireland's immigration system needs shaping up.

You have not disputed that there has been a huge increase in illegal immigrants posing as refugees. By lying to get the financial benefits of asylum they are committing fraud. If the law was enforced impartially, these criminals would be sent to prison. However, that would be a further drain on the Irish economy. Instead these criminals should be deported.

Originally posted by bugler
unintelligent, misleading and childlike posts like this,

I honestly think this is a better description of your post than of mine. I included a number of statistics with hyper links so that people could check them. Your post was full of abuse and did not include a single verifiable fact.

Originally posted by bugler
the ICP make a good argument when it suits them. Re:Irish immigration to Britain for example. .

Indeed they do. I urge everyone to read it at http://www.immigrationcontrol.org/index.htm

Originally posted by bugler
their arguments sound fair, and reasonable. Most people say that about "Mein Kampf" too.

Maybe sick headcases like you say that, but I wouldn't. Out of curiosity I tried reading it, but couldn't get beyond the first few pages. Its full of hate and empty bombast, very much like your writings.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
If the ICP had the money to prosecute for defamation, the court would not agree with your artificial distinction between misinformation and accusation.

Incorrect. If you wish to persue legal action with regard to defamation, in particular if you have a case as strong as you say the ICP has, then money is not an issue. The most a solicitor will look for up front will generally be around €1,500 or so, in my experience (and trust me, I've sued or been sued a good few times, so I know).

Should you win your case, the costs should be awarded to you in additon to damages. Hence 'having the money' is immaterial - unless you lose.

This information, needless to say, is simply to correct your assertion and not to be taken as legal advice, which you should always seek from a professional.

R.A.McCartney

Originally posted by seamus
'citizenship by blood' legislation ... is a tad too much like nazism IMHO.

This wasn't introduced by the Nazis. Lots of European countries operate the same principle in their citizenship laws. Indeed, if you think about it, the 26 Counties has partially incoporated the principle too, because anyone with one Irish parent automatically has Irish citizenship, even if they were born abroad & have never been to Ireland.

If an illegal immigrant manages to give birth before they're deported, that child automatically has irish citizenship. That is ludicrous and the law should be changed.

Originally posted by seamus
I have no problem with asylum seekers. As long as they get the feck out when they're application is turned down

I agree that if some one is genuinly facing death or persecution and has no where else to go, then we should be treat them with the same generosity we would hope for if we were in that situation. I don't agree with mass immigration of liars, cheats and fraudsters pretending to be refugees.

gandalf

Keep the comments civil all and DO NOT personilise the arguements.

If you all cannot do this I will be deleting posts.

Gandalf.

bugler

Well to be honest Gandalf, I would have thought R.A's post there overstepped the mark in several instances. Implying that I need psychiatric help is fairly personal. I suppose this is just another case of the boards moderators moving in mysterious ways. I'll reply properly to this when I'm not running off to an exam in 15 minutes.

R.A.McCartney

Originally posted by JC
clarify what, if any, your relationship with the ICP is. I'll give you 48 hours to respond. If I havent heard from you by then, I will... close/delete the thread.

Does JC stand for Joe mcCarthy? Because you certainly sound like Old Joe. 'Are you now or have you ever been a member of the ICP?' To paraphrase Woody Allen in 'The Front': I don't recognise your right to ask me these kind of questions, and further more, you can go fuck yourself. I am reporting you to the directors of boards.ie for abusing your position as a moderator, and I urge everyone who believes in free speech to do the same.

R.A.McCartney

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
I can't think of any reason in favour of multiculturalism, apart from an inferiority complex whereby we have to have a multicultural society because the big boys and girls in Europe and America have multicultural societies.

Well said! Mind you, not everyone in Europe has a multicultural society, and there's never been a reerendum in a country which resulted in a vote to create one.

R.A.McCartney

Originally posted by The Corinthian

Incorrect. If you wish to persue legal action with regard to defamation, in particular if you have a case as strong as you say the ICP has, then money is not an issue. The most a solicitor will look for up front will generally be around €1,500 or so, in my experience (and trust me, I've sued or been sued a good few times, so I know).

Should you win your case, the costs should be awarded to you in additon to damages. Hence 'having the money' is immaterial - unless you lose.

This information, needless to say, is simply to correct your assertion and not to be taken as legal advice, which you should always seek from a professional.

I have asked a qualified solicitor before, and his advice was that I'd have to be a millionaire to sue for defamation. According to http://indigo.ie/~kwood/defamation.htm "in the April 2001 case of Irish parliamentarian Beverley Cooper-Flynn against state broadcaster RTE, the jury found that RTE had not proved its case, but other evidence showed that the plaintiff's character had not been damaged. She was awarded no damages and ordered to pay a legal bill estimated at £2 million." In other words, she won, but it still cost her £2 million, which is why any responsible solicitor will tell you ordinary people can't sue for defamation, only the rich can do that.

R.A.McCartney

Originally posted by Victor
what of the inferiority complex where people are intolerable of perhaps 2% non-nationals?

If the figure was really only 2%, I would probably be on your side of this argument, but you're misinformed. CSO recently estimated the population at 3.8 million. 2% of that would be 76000. I refer you to another post in this thread.

Originally posted by mike65

Some time last year I e-mailed the CSO regarding the number on non-nationals resident here, the figure I got back was about 270,000 from, I presume, the 1991 census. Given the last 10
years one can only belive that figure is up by a good/bad 50%.

270,000 as a percentage of 3.8 million is a little over 7% mike65 is certainly right that the percentage will be much higher now. In my opinion there are far too many foreigners in Ireland, and I don't care what colour they are.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
I have asked a qualified solicitor before, and his advice was that I'd have to be a millionaire to sue for defamation.

If you have a weak or not case or the plaintiff has no money (a so called 'man of straw'). Defamation, in a straightforward case, is not a major issue and most solictors would take it on a pro-bono basis.

R.A.McCartney

Originally posted by Victor

This figure has been disputed, do you have any back up?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&postid=384835&highlight=maternity

I followed your link. TwoShedsJackson claimed that this had been refuted, but didn't give a link or any other kind of source so that his claim could be checked. I did a couple of Google searches, and couldn't find anything which supported him.

My Source of information was the Irish Independent
http://www.unison.ie/irish_independent/stories.php3?ca=9&si=671510&issue_id=6711

"A LEAFLET by the Immigration Control Platform... adds that 38pc of births in the Rotunda in Dublin during last August were to non-nationals.

Philip Watt of the National Consultative Committee on Racism said... the statistics on births related to all non-nationals, and included people with a right to live here."

I would assume that if even the pro-immigration extremists say that 38% of births in the Rotunda were to non-nationals, then it is probably true.

mike65

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney


mike65 is certainly right that the percentage will be much higher now. In my opinion there are far too many foreigners in Ireland, and I don't care what colour they are.

I'd better leave then....:(

Mike.

Victor

Originally posted by mike65
Some time last year I e-mailed the CSO regarding the number on non-nationals resident here, the figure I got back was about 270,000 from, I presume, the 1991 census. Given the last 10
years one can only belive that figure is up by a good/bad 50%.

That figure is likely to have been based on the quarterly labour force survey (a mini-census based on a semi-fixed set of households totalling about 50,000 people). I don't think anyone is still using 1991 figures.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney


Does JC stand for Joe mcCarthy? Because you certainly sound like Old Joe. 'Are you now or have you ever been a member of the ICP?' To paraphrase Woody Allen in 'The Front': I don't recognise your right to ask me these kind of questions, and further more, you can go fuck yourself. I am reporting you to the directors of boards.ie for abusing your position as a moderator, and I urge everyone who believes in free speech to do the same.

Oh dear...

sceptre

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
Does JC stand for Joe mcCarthy? Because you certainly sound like Old Joe. 'Are you now or have you ever been a member of the ICP?' To paraphrase Woody Allen in 'The Front': I don't recognise your right to ask me these kind of questions, and further more, you can go fuck yourself. I am reporting you to the directors of boards.ie for abusing your position as a moderator, and I urge everyone who believes in free speech to do the same.

... and that's the edited version.

Game over, close thread, 12-click methinks.

If you think free speech is absolute, then you're a bigger idiot than this thread would indicate.

Sand

Sand argued earlier that while it may not be pc, it is "easier" or "better" to avoid the problem than to try and solve it. At least, thats the meaning I took out of his words. Unfortunately I cannot agree. This is persecuting the innocent because we are unwilling to deal with the guilty. That is not a society I want to live in, nor one I could support.

Is there a solution? If there is have multicultural states like Britain (Our closest neighbour in more ways than mere geography) found it yet? If they havent, given how much more resources and experience they have in dealing with the issues raised by divisions in society what chance does Ireland have? You might not want to live in a society that avoids divisions in society it doesnt need but on the flip side you probably wouldnt be wild about living in a society where a section of it considers itself a seperate "tribe". If solutions can be found to prevent this "tribalism" then fine by me as theres no cost to me or society as a whole and we can all enjoy authentic dishes,music and stories from around the world yadayada. You should also drop a line to Belfast where theyre still looking for a solution to tribalism up there.

270,000 as a percentage of 3.8 million is a little over 7% mike65 is certainly right that the percentage will be much higher now. In my opinion there are far too many foreigners in Ireland, and I don't care what colour they are.

Please. Are you saying all non nationals are from the same culture? Thats ridiculous. The problems raised by multi culturalism only exist when a significant sustainable culture comes into competition with another. Even if your figures were correct they would be people from Europe, Africa, Asia, America etc etc. Theyre numbers would be so small that *if* they were to remain in Ireland for life/a large portion of time they would integrate into Irish society. An example would be Germans living in Ireland. While the majority of them will be shouting for Germany come the world cup many have been here so long ( and have raised families here) they identify with Ireland more than Germany and will be shouting on the boys in green. Just a minor example of how a insignificant minority will gradually be assimilated into the host culture and identity. The divisions we should be worried about only come about when either the host culture becomes xenophobic in general (Nazis) or it a rival culture fails to integrate and the two tribes symptom takes root.

BTW what you said re:Bonkey is over the line. Hes entitled to ask you a question. Its appropriate to respond to it (even to say no comment) without launching into an attack that only makes you look petty and foolish.

As a catalyst for social evolution, or rather to avoid social stagnation is one potential reason. A larger, and hence preferable, gene pool for the breeding population is another.

And immigration can provide this (Social evolution i mean - the engineering of the gene pool is a bit dodgy as a policy objective) I agree. The important point is that immigrants contribute to the host culture rather than create a rival minority culture. The Irish emigrants to the U.S. contributed to the American identity in their own small way to the point where the Paddys Day parade in New York is the largest in the world. The Irish however became American - Baseball, that silly rugby and hanging the stars and stripes off every available square inch and so on:)

R.A.McCartney

Originally posted by Victor

You are misrepresenting the figures.

No I'm not. I gave the url of the CSO document & accurately quoted from it. You have not presented any evidence to the contrary.

Originally posted by Victor

Those figures include Irish and non-Irish people, you cannot assume that everyone leaving the country last year was Irish (hey the ICP say people were deported and they make up part of the figure).

As I clearly stated, there is no record of the nationality of out-migrants. Therefore assumptions have to be made. I explicitly said my calculation assumed they were all non-Irish, and it is therefore outrageous to accuse me of misrepresenting the facts.

According to the ICP only 365 illegal immigrants were deported in 2001, leaving a net gain of just under 10,000 for that year. If you adjust my figures for this, the net gain of non-nationals in 2001 was 27,817. That is not significantly different.

Originally posted by Victor

You are also ignoring births in the equation (eqaul to migration in it's contribution to population growth).

You haven't presented any evidence to support what you are saying. However, if you want to take births into account, I should point out that among native Irish people, birth rates are now very low. According to the 1996 census (CSO web site) "One-person households represent 22% of the total number in the State" & "For the State as a whole 22% of families had no children." Immigrants from the EU & North America will have similar birth rates to native Irish people, However, in eastern Europe and third world countries, large families are still common. The children of such immigrants will therefore constitute a much higher proportion of their age cohort than did their parents.

Originally posted by Victor

The ICP's own website list about 10,000 asylum seekers a year, which includes all (adults and children), so it would take hundreds of years to be 'overwhelmed'.

If you read their site more carefully, you will see that it is actually over 10,000 *applications for asylum* per year. Once granted asylum, an applicant can bring in their dependents, but those people won't be counted in the figures. It stands to reason that even if an asylum-seeker brought his family with him, they wouldn't need to make separate applications, so they also wouldn't be counted. The CSO makes an attempt to count these people in other ways, but I don't think they will show up as asylum seekers. Only the census will count them all. I would not be surprised if the 2002 census figures show more than 15% of the population are already non-nationals or from non-Irish ethnic groups.

R.A.McCartney

Originally posted by The Corinthian

In fairness I'll read up on her arguments, before damning/exalting her. My (emotive) gut would be that she would be another one of these Roman Catholic fanatics that would force us all to work on the land and speak in Irish. This is an unfair assumption, although experience has taught me probably correct, without further investigation.

I applaud you for looking at the evidence & making up your own mind. However, why are you liknking Catholicism, farming & the Irish language? I believe the Sinn Féin candidate fighting the same constiuency as her is a Protestant Irish language activist. The Church of Ireland seems to be as committed to the Irish language as the Catholic church. As for forcing people to speak Irish, I'd be happy if we could get to a situation where Irish-speakers weren't being disadvantaged by the state unless they speak English.

seamus

I think the point he was trying to make is that she is an activist for Irish Heritage, which involves farming, speaking Irish, and Catholicism - they tend to be fanatical about their catholicism. As for Irish speakers being at a disadvantage?! That's a whole new thread

Saruman

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

Multiculturalism by its very nature is divisive as we have different sections of the population adhering to different cultures.

The only way this is true is if the existing population (us Irish) ignore the new cultures instead of embracing and welcoming it and trying to integrate it into ours!

I work in a multinational company and there are different ethnic groups here.. So when i meet someone from say Libya who is a muslim.. i find out what i can about his country, his religion etc and learn about it!! I dont ignore him and think him a muppet for not eating bacon (excuse the pun).

The Corinthian

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
I applaud you for looking at the evidence & making up your own mind. However, why are you liknking Catholicism, farming & the Irish language?

Within Irish conservatism, such traditional nationalistic values have generally come as a package deal. Political groups/parties such as the Christian Centrist Party (or whatever they’re called now), Muintir na hÉireann and Youth Defence have often linked national identity to these three principles. Indeed, an Irish-speaking agricultural society is even enshrined as official aims of the Fianna Fáil party.

I’ve had a considerable number of dealings with such groups over the years, and even when these are not the official policies of the group in question, more often than not, they will be the personal beliefs of the membership. Catholicism along with farming and the Irish language is an all too familiar motif of the Irish right-winger.

As I already said, this viewpoint may in many respects be an unfair assumption upon my part, although experience has taught me it is also a probably accurate one.

As for forcing people to speak Irish, I'd be happy if we could get to a situation where Irish-speakers weren't being disadvantaged by the state unless they speak English.

It has long been the majority opinion that Irish-speakers have actually had an unfair advantage. I say majority, because this denotes the non-Irish speaking population who are unable to avail of these advantages. The only disadvantaged by the State that Irish-speakers suffer, is that it is a minority language. In short, few speak any Irish, beyond a few words and phrases, despite decades of promotion by the State.

However, the question of multiculturalism is relevant here, in that Gaelic language and culture, is in fact very much seen as much as a separate an ethnic group as any immigrant group, by this majority. And this was true long before these other foreign cultures began to flood in.

hurler-on-ditch

The Corinthian,

You must have a different FF manifesto to the one I have!! : official aim to have Irish speaking AGRICULTURAL society...better get rid of their true Dub non-Irish speaking leader so..

Victor

Just a question, addressed to R.A.McCartney and Biffa Bacon, my niece was born in Chester, England - should she be entitled to Irish citizenship?

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
As I clearly stated, there is no record of the nationality of out-migrants. Therefore assumptions have to be made. I explicitly said my calculation assumed they were all non-Irish, and it is therefore outrageous to accuse me of misrepresenting the facts.

You are misrepresenting the facts, because you know that your assumptions are wrong (as do the most innumerate dogs in the street).

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
According to the ICP only 365 illegal immigrants were deported in 2001, leaving a net gain of just under 10,000 for that year. If you adjust my figures for this, the net gain of non-nationals in 2001 was 27,817. That is not significantly different.

You continue the misrepresentation, even after it is pointed out to you.

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
You haven't presented any evidence to support what you are saying. (re: births)

I thought that you might have looked at the figures in your own link.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by hurler-on-ditch
You must have a different FF manifesto to the one I have!! : official aim to have Irish speaking AGRICULTURAL society...better get rid of their true Dub non-Irish speaking leader so..

Sound's like it to me:

"...to restore and promote the Irish language as a living language of the people...
...to maintain as many families as practicable on the land"

http://homepage.tinet.ie/~ogracavan/WHAT%20IS%20FIANNA%20FAIL.htm

You should also generally find those points on the back of a party membership card.

As for their true Dub non-Irish speaking leader, are you seriously asking me to believe that any political party, least of all Fianna Fáil, actually practices what it preaches?

Biffa Bacon

The only way this is true is if the existing population (us Irish) ignore the new cultures instead of embracing and welcoming it and trying to integrate it into ours!

In which case we won't have a multicultural society.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by Victor
Just a question, addressed to R.A.McCartney and Biffa Bacon, my niece was born in Chester, England - should she be entitled to Irish citizenship?

Not as of right, no.

koneko

Sometimes I have difficulty believing Biffa is a real person.

Tell me Biffa, I'm from mainland Europe, and moved over here years ago. I own a house here now, and I plan to marry here and have kids, and yes I pay taxes (probably more than a lot of "Irish people do). Is that okay by you? Or should I move back because I wasn't born here?

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by koneko
Is that okay by you?

Yes.

Or should I move back because I wasn't born here?

No.