Attention Ostriches!

R.A.McCartney · 19-05-2002 2:11pm

I was tempted to start another thread to deal with this, but since I won't be around to post for a while it would be pointless.

Originally posted by The Corinthian

I would dispute your reputable source as being partisan. It is difficult to take seriously any survey, let alone one conducted by one of the numerous State sponsored bodies whose very reason d’etre raises a conflict of interests with regard to the result of the survey. I would hardly accept a similar survey from a pro-immigration showing widespread support of immigration either.

That is a reasonable point. However, if the methodology or interpretation of results were seriuosly at fault, I would have expected criticism from other academics. I am not aware that any such criticisms have been made. Hindley accused Irish lanuage activists of telling "loyal lies" to cover up the decline in the numbers speaking Irish. I don't recall any critique from him about the methodology & no fundamental disagreement between him & state bodies regarding interpretation. Most people would like to see the Irish language prosper, but its not an important issue in their daily lives. Only when promotion of the language threatens people's own material interests do they react with hostility. Giving my own website a quick plug, I tried to suggest a way in which people who are passionate about the language could be enabled to live and work in the Gaeltacht, using Irish as their normal language, without inconveniencing the rest of the population.

Originally posted by The Corinthian

At the time that my mother did the leaving certificate, one was deemed to have failed it completely if she failed to pass Irish. Even by the time that I did my own leaving certificate I would theoretically have been barred from entering an NUI college without a pass in Irish. I even knew one chap in school who managed to get ample grades/points to be accepted for Engineering in UCD, only to be forced to repeat his leaving certificate because he failed Irish.

The effect of these rules has been exaggerated. To repeat a quote from my website:

"Overall, only 0.5% of children failed their Certificate of Education in Irish only, and those who did so were shown to have very poor marks in other subjects."

'The Celtic Revolution' by Peter Berresford Ellis (Y Lofa, 1985) p123:

Originally posted by The Corinthian

One was also given bonus marks for sitting one’s exams in Irish, an advantage towards Irish speakers that was unavailable to those who were weak in the language. Grants awarded to Irish speakers, in particular in the Gaeltacht, are another example of advantage awarded to a minority group

Any such benefits were insignificant compared to the disadvantages native Irish-Speakers suffered if they did not speak English. They had to pay taxes but they couldn't get state jobs, they couldn't apply for loans or grants, or access a whole range of government services. I don't know of any other country in the world where speakers of an official language are treated like that, and I don't think anyone else can name one.

Originally posted by The Corinthian

Of the three means you quote whereby the State is main force anglicising the Gaeltacht, “Providing services only in English” and “Using English as the working language for state jobs” are directly due to the fact that it is such a minority language. It is impractical or too costly.

Again, no other country in the world would treat speakers of an official language this way. Cost just wouldn't even be a consideration.

Originally posted by The Corinthian

The third, “Providing grants and infrastructure to encourage the movement of English-speakers into Irish-speaking areas” is an attempt to reverse the vicious depopulation of rural areas that has take place over the years.

I've dealt with this on my web site. When you have time, have a more in depth look. at
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/r.a.mccartney/baile_nua/main.html

Sorry, I can't continue with this right now.

R.A.McCartney · 19-05-2002 3:12pm

Originally posted by Sand
you didnt specify what you disagree with

Yes I did. I quoted you. Obviously the comment applied to the quote. Let me repeat the quote & what I said:

Originally posted by Sand
Theyre numbers would be so small that *if* they were to remain in Ireland for life/a large portion of time they would integrate into Irish society. An example would be Germans living in Ireland. While the majority of them will be shouting for Germany come the world cup many have been here so long ( and have raised families here) they identify with Ireland more than Germany and will be shouting on the boys in green.

Originally posted by me
Complete drivel. I challenge to quote a survey from a reliable source which proves what you are saying is true.

Originally posted by Sand
So I went off to the Central Statistics Office website and checked out their stats on demographics and the labour force etc.

http://www.cso.ie/publications/demog/popmig.pdf

PDF document talking about migration and has a section on the nationality of migrants. Check table 7, near the end.... the Rest of world sounds even more varied than the E.U. category seeing as they come from cultures and nations all across the world. Its safe to assume given this that currently migrants from any one particular nationality/culture do not exist in any number to form a sustainable minority culture inside Ireland. Hence whats the problem?

You quoted from table 7. you did not mention that there is a huge discrepency between table 7 & table 5. The first gives the number of immigrants from the rest of the word in 2001 as 12,300; the latter says it was 17,500. The document itself says:

"Because of recent increases in the number of asylum seekers
who are accommodated in institutions such as hotels and hostels, the classification of
immigrants by country of origin (Table 5) and nationality (Table 7) for more recent years may
be subject to a wider margin of error than the other estimates in this release."

The Netherlands went from having very few immigrants to having some of its main cities 40% muslim in just 10 years. I don't want to see that happening in Ireland. These people may not be coming from a single unified culture, but they will never see themselves as inheritors of Ireland's Gaelic culture. They will never see the Irish language as their language. Multiculturalism/multiracialism is the modern version of West Britonism and I am opposed to it.

I've had to rush this. This has to be my last post for some time.

Von · 19-05-2002 4:23pm

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
The Netherlands went from having very few immigrants to having some of its main cities 40% muslim in just 10 years. I don't want to see that happening in Ireland. These people may not be coming from a single unified culture, but they will never see themselves as inheritors of Ireland's Gaelic culture.

The bug-eyed sexually repressed totally retarded lunatics of the ICP are the last people on earth who could be described as the "inheritors" of Ireland's Gaelic culture.

They will never see the Irish language as their language.

So what. If that turns out to be true, then they're "fitting in" with the overwhelming majority of people who live here, including those from EU states.

Multiculturalism/multiracialism is the modern version of West Britonism and I am opposed to it.

Yeah whatever.

I've had to rush this. This has to be my last post for some time.

Ah no don't go, you sound like great crack. Almost as funny as this lad here.

Here's a good joke, I tell the leader of the Young British National Party. It was told by the black comedian Lenny Henry at the West Bromwich Plaza in the 70s. It goes like this. "Enoch Powell wants to give us £1,000 to go home. Suits me. It only costs me 50p to get to Dudley." It sums up what I feel about the BNP's policy of repatriation and racial purity. The racists lost - black people are here to stay. Funny joke, isn't it?

Twomey · 19-05-2002 5:26pm

I can't wait until this country gets even more multicultural than it is! Especially where I live, up north. I can hardly wait until the minorities that are here start to get active politically, and become much more visible and integrated into society here. Imagine a Chinese City Councillor, or an African MLA. It would be fantastic.

The injection of new ideas, new thinking, new ways of doing things, even something as simple as a new perspective, can only be good. Heck even if it turns out to be the same ****e different face that would still be a kick in the pants.

Not only - as someone else pointed out - would there be better food - which Ireland desperatly needs!!!!!!!! - the architecture would change, the style of clothes, the music (as has already been influenced), language, all sorts of stuff. And the best part of all is that at the end of the day the mixture would still be uniquely IRISH

The more people from different places that come here and integrate and mix and become a part of the fabric of society at all levels, the better this place will be. In the long term it will have the competitve edge that the nationalists moves in the rest of Europe are going to miss out on.

Roll on immigration, roll on!!!

Sand · 19-05-2002 6:03pm

You quoted from table 7. you did not mention that there is a huge discrepency between table 7 & table 5. The first gives the number of immigrants from the rest of the word in 2001 as 12,300; the latter says it was 17,500. The document itself says:

Ah yes but seeing as the CSO has discriminated in favour of english speaking me by not detailing the report in a dying language on state life support I was able to read the title of Table 5 and Table 7 and come up with a reasonable explanation for the "discrepancy". Table 5 categorises immigrants/emmigrants by the country they arrived from and the country theyre going to - not by their nationality. Table 7 categorised them by their nationality. As such its not particularly amazing the figures are different as U.K. national could immigrate from Australia and there are other possible permutations. The actual figures for total immigration in 2001 in both tables are equal to 46,200.

Hence table 7 was saying 12,300 Nationals from otuside the other 4 categories arrived in Ireland in 2001. Table 5 was saying that 17,500 people (Any of whom could have been Irish Nationals) arrived from countires outside of the EU,UK,US etc etc.

What was your point again?

These people may not be coming from a single unified culture, but they will never see themselves as inheritors of Ireland's Gaelic culture. They will never see the Irish language as their language. Multiculturalism/multiracialism is the modern version of West Britonism and I am opposed to it.

Seeing as they dont exist in sufficent numbers to create their own culture the Irish culture is the only one on offer for them. Their kids will be Irish, and many will consider themselves Irish after several decades of living here. The vast majority of Irish people dont view Irish as their language in anything beyond an academic sense anyway. Like many others I learned just enough to get past the pro- Irish discrimination to get a place in College and given the amount of time I wasted utterly learning it in school Im delighted Ive never used it since.

I've had to rush this. This has to be my last post for some time.

Ah nuts.

Victor · 19-05-2002 8:06pm

http://education.guardian.co.uk/students/story/0,9860,708252,00.html

Never. All I ask of them is that when in Rome, they behave like Romans.

So crucifixion, slavery, imperialism, mass murder and paedophilia (all common in Roman times) is OK by these guys? (I know I am abusing the quote, but there are different perspectives that need to be looked at)

Victor · 19-05-2002 8:12pm

Re: abuse. I understand that RAC started it by calling us "Ostriches".

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
The Netherlands went from having very few immigrants to having some of its main cities 40% muslim in just 10 years.

Source? And I'm sure that the Indonesians said the same about all the Dutch missionaries arriving in Jakarta 100-200 years ago. It's a bit rich for formerly imperialist countries to say "it was OK for us to invade your country, but you can't ask to come here to work".

Von · 19-05-2002 9:45pm

I don’t have any fantasy of Irish cultural purity.

You must do because you’re arguing against Ireland being a multicultural/multiracial state. Therefore you’re in favour of a monocultural/monoracial one and so you must have a code of Irishness that immigrants (EU and non-EU) and asylum seekers will have to adhere to. For a start, how about no queers, no unusual skin colours, no “funny” clothes, and no smelly food.

Thanks Von, Im not a nazi (cheers) but i hang out with them right?:|

You’re opposed to a multicultural/multiracial society. Far-right parties across Europe are too and for the same reasons.

Now you seem to be completely missing the point. Im not particularly concerned with "oirish" culture. I find the Jackie, Ultra Orthodox Catholicism/Republicanism "Whose taking the horse to france?" type stuff nearly as cringe inducing as the desperately hip, lefter-than-thou "Fight the man!" idiots.

Irish history is full of “Fight The Man!” idiots. Nothing wrong with fighting the man at all. Unless it’s done rubbishly. Like Robert Emmet. Or Napper Tandy. Michael Collins, Oscar Wilde, James Joyce and Flann O’Brien did it with a bit of class. In any case, “Fight The Man!” idiots are far more interesting than “Suck The Man’s Cock!” sit-on-the-fence let’s-hear-what-Mr.Hitler-has-to-say types.

And don’t be knocking the country’s horseracing industry.

Im simply recognising the trouble that multi culturalism (two cultures in the same space) brings. Northern Ireland and the Travellers are two cases of the joys of multi culturalism. We need more?

Ireland’s been multicultural/multiracial for a long time. There were Prods on my road and many Italians in my school in Finglas whose parents immigrated in the 60’s or 70’s, a time when the country was in a far worse state to accomodate immigration than now. There’s also the urban/rural divide.

Yeah lets go abroad and check in on the joys of multi culturalism in other cities. Ghettoisation, social tension and even violence. Brilliant stuff. BTW those ignorant snotty little runts are getting on with their lives - guess theyre not desperately hip enough:|

No ghettos, social tension or violence here already eh?

Sand · 19-05-2002 10:50pm

You’re opposed to a multicultural/multiracial society. Far-right parties across Europe are too and for the same reasons.

For the same reasons? Von, people who call anyone who disagree with them Nazis are the ultra nationalists best friends because they completely marginalise and alienate people who have concerns. These people then see the extreme right as the only people to actually say that there are problems and hence they vote for them no matter how ridiculous their overall position is. Le Pen, Haider, even Fortunes party despite the fact he was not of the same ilk, similar desperately hip people were calling him Nazi week in and out. All these people help the ultra nationalists to capitalise on the people marginalised by the sheer arrogance of those who refuse to actually argue their case beyond "Youre a Nazi. Good night".

BTW any good reason for multicuturalism yet?

Irish history is full of “Fight The Man!” idiots. Nothing wrong with fighting the man at all. Unless it’s done rubbishly.

Thats what would make them fight the man idiots.

In any case, “Fight The Man!” idiots are far more interesting than “Suck The Man’s Cock!” sit-on-the-fence let’s-hear-what-Mr.Hitler-has-to-say types.

I dont know, theyre a little less self righteous than the fight the man types.

Ireland’s been multicultural/multiracial for a long time. There were Prods on my road and many Italians in my school in Finglas whose parents immigrated in the 60’s or 70’s, a time when the country was in a far worse state to accomodate immigration than now. There’s also the urban/rural divide.

Youre right, theres the whole unionist-nationalist cultural divide, the whole traveller - settled divide. Ireland truly has been enriched by this multiculturalism. Given as a large proportion of those dwelling in urban areas are from rurual areas or their parents were the urban-rural divide is hardly a gaping culturual chasm.

No ghettos, social tension or violence here already eh?

Most noticeably in Belfast.

The Corinthian · 20-05-2002 12:33am

Originally posted by Von
The bug-eyed sexually repressed totally retarded lunatics of the ICP are the last people on earth who could be described as the "inheritors" of Ireland's Gaelic culture.

Abuse with no argument.

You’re opposed to a multicultural/multiracial society. Far-right parties across Europe are too and for the same reasons.

Stupid argument. Hence anyone that shares any policy with a Nazi, such as heavy State intervention and management of an economy, must be a Nazi. That all covers pretty much everyone on the planet apart from Ross Perot.

In any case, “Fight The Man!” idiots are far more interesting than “Suck The Man’s Cock!” sit-on-the-fence let’s-hear-what-Mr.Hitler-has-to-say types.

Yes, I agree too with the Gardi beating the s***e out of those protestors the other week rather than letting them have their say…

Christ Von, you really have to cut down on your sugar intake…

The Corinthian · 20-05-2002 12:35am

Originally posted by R.A.McCartney
Bringing in foreign workers on contract to solve a temporary labour shortage is moral, ethical & a great deal more sensible than bringing them in as permanent settlers, with all the attendant problems.

Depends how it’s done – if we pay handsomely for the inconvenience of a temporary translocation then perhaps you have a point. If we try to just take advantage of cheap labour, then that’s immoral.

Koopa · 20-05-2002 6:52am

while vons sugar intake is a worrying subject personally for me, and for you too,
its the 'fitting in' part that i have trouble with
how do i do it like, can some of the experts, who probably do 'fitting in'(sounds like hotmansex!but dont be fooled kids) for a living, tell us more about what makes it easier please
not that it really matters though, as once iraq takes over the world, ill be the one who totally fits in (YESSSS my lifelong dream!)
and you ****ers will have to learn about it

anyway, a question for biffa bacon
where do these countries start from? is it like, some guy sets foot on land where there dont seem to be a lot of people, and just claims it?
on another note, im claiming antarctica for myself, as for mars, jupiter, the moon - piss off NASA they're mine, if u send another probe to my planets im going retrieve it and stick it up your bum
the M51 Ring Nebula wha? dont even think of going there.. trespassing fags

if you dont recognise my right to claim these places, then i dont recognise the claim of whoever decided in 93454 BC that this island was going to be ireland, and owned by his tribe
of course, this goes for all countries, but i have no problem with this unless all those countries recognise my claim to any land that i decide is mine (im not even going to bother walking on it, i doubt anyone bothered walking on the edge of the cliffs in kerry before claiming it for ireland, it was just 'ireland' because it was close to where some people settled, who decided they wanted in on this 'ireland' yoke)

so, im hereby claiming the sun as part of my country(samland), any of you dikheads who moan later when i block it out, get your own ****ing sun, and stop being a sponge all your life

Biffa Bacon · 20-05-2002 10:36am

Originally posted by Von
You must do because you’re arguing against Ireland being a multicultural/multiracial state. Therefore you’re in favour of a monocultural/monoracial one and so you must have a code of Irishness that immigrants (EU and non-EU) and asylum seekers will have to adhere to.

No I don't have a code of Irishness they must adhere to. Anyone who enters the country is perfectly entitiled to keep their own culture. I'm just saying only let a few of them in, no matter where they come from.

For a start, how about no queers, no unusual skin colours, no “funny” clothes, and no smelly food.

Yep, despite the fact that on numerous occasions in this thread I have explicitly stated that I do not dislike or object to people of different races, you still want to label me a racist. And while you're at it, homophobic to boot.

Biffa Bacon · 20-05-2002 10:48am

Originally posted by Koopa
anyway, a question for biffa bacon
where do these countries start from? is it like, some guy sets foot on land where there dont seem to be a lot of people, and just claims it?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But Ireland has the right to control who enters the country because it is an independent state, and there are plenty of people who would be willing to fight to keep it that way.

on another note, im claiming antarctica for myself, as for mars, jupiter, the moon - piss off NASA they're mine, if u send another probe to my planets im going retrieve it and stick it up your bum
the M51 Ring Nebula wha? dont even think of going there.. trespassing fags

Ah yes but you wouldn't be able to do any of these things would you? So your claim to them would have no practical meaning.

if you dont recognise my right to claim these places, then i dont recognise the claim of whoever decided in 93454 BC that this island was going to be ireland, and owned by his tribe

So what? What are you going to do?

Von · 20-05-2002 11:06am

Originally posted by Sand
For the same reasons? Von, people who call anyone who disagree with them Nazis are the ultra nationalists best friends because they completely marginalise and alienate people who have concerns. These people then see the extreme right as the only people to actually say that there are problems and hence they vote for them no matter how ridiculous their overall position is. Le Pen, Haider, even Fortunes party despite the fact he was not of the same ilk, similar desperately hip people were calling him Nazi week in and out. All these people help the ultra nationalists to capitalise on the people marginalised by the sheer arrogance of those who refuse to actually argue their case beyond "Youre a Nazi. Good night".

And where were you called a nazi? Nowhere. Correct us if we’re wrong, but you seem to be in agreement with far-right parties on the issue of multiculturalism, viz. They say "It doesn't work", "They don't try to fit in." How does your argument against it differ from their official one? All those parties deny being nazi parties by the way and they all say the same thing as you if anyone accuses them of being such "Anyone who tries to question multiculturalism gets called a nazi." etc. You want a “homogenous” society. The BNP wants an “all-white” society. Explain the difference please. Since it’s such a contentious topic you should try clarifying your position instead of whinging about being misunderstood. Like a baby. Anyway, we already seem to have a multicultural society so like, where’s the race riots and “I’m not racist but...” street demos then?

BTW any good reason for multicuturalism yet?

Perhaps some people might develop a less insular, arrogant, infantile, ignorant view of the world and realise that their prejudices and preconceived notions about other races are ill-informed at best and that they might need to reconsider their entire approach to life and re-evaluate their personal values. I’d also say that an influx of new people with new ideas will spur the production of new art, film, literature and music but unless you’re concerned with stuff like that, it probably doesn’t count.

I dont know, theyre a little less self righteous than the fight the man types.

Martin Luther King, Emmeline Pankhurst and Mr.Gandhi. Three notable "fight the man!" idiots of the 20th century. Self righteous to some, inspirational to others but total pains in the holes of their respective time’s reactionaries.

Youre right, theres the whole unionist-nationalist cultural divide, the whole traveller - settled divide. Ireland truly has been enriched by this multiculturalism. Given as a large proportion of those dwelling in urban areas are from rurual areas or their parents were the urban-rural divide is hardly a gaping culturual chasm.

Your repeated attempts to hold NI up as a classic case of the multicultural nightmare are getting less and less amusing and more and more wilfully ignorant. Which side represents the immigrants/asylum seekers then? And why?

The urban/rural cultural divide might not be a gaping chasm to you but prejudice is all relative isn’t it? For example, several friends of mine in Ardee have been attacked and beaten up, accused of being "queers". They're not gay, they happen to hang around with someone who is, but the point is they were picked on for being “different” (ie for not being into GAA or the IRA or karate videos or whatever passes for social life in mid Louth). No other reason. Classic smallminded smalltown thinking. City folk are considerably more open-minded about “that” sort of thing these days. Or else urban thugs make up another excuse to find someone else (Spaniards anyone?) to bash.

Most noticeably in Belfast.

Unless the shinners have gone and done a coup I haven’t heard about, Belfast is not in this state.

Abuse with no argument.

Loads more where that came from.

Stupid argument.

Stupid thread, stupid argument.

Hence anyone that shares any policy with a Nazi, such as heavy State intervention and management of an economy, must be a Nazi. That all covers pretty much everyone on the planet apart from Ross Perot.

No sir, I think I explained this above. Anyhow, when people think of nazis they do tend to associate them with concepts of cultural and racial homogenity. Why’s that then? The only reasons he’s given for opposing a multicultural/multiracial society are the very superficial ones far-right parties like to use. What political parties here or in the UK have a monocultural/monoracial policy? What we here in the Dept. Of Relentless Rightonnery want to know is: what cultures/races (if any) are to be permitted entry to this country and what the specific objections are to those that are deemed undesirable. No attempt has been made to explain what “fitting in” to Irish society entails. When in Sandland do as Sandlandians do? Whatever that is, no thanks. The boozecentric (is this what is meant by homogenous society? Everyone locked 24/7?) Irish social life alienates many immigrants (including people from other (racially/culturally acceptable we presume) EU nations) so how can they in effect, “fit in”?

Now maybe his definition of “multiculturalism” differs somewhat from mine but to me it means that everybody is free to live their lives as they please and go in for whatever mumbo jumbo they feel like as long as (childraping priests take note) it doesn’t involve harming anyone else. Howzat. I gave gay culture as an example. There’s no shortage of homophobic people about so should we kick out the queers (or cure them) to eradicate social tension and reduce the prospects of violence? “He made me batter ‘im yer honour, he was campin’ it up bleedin’ woeful like.”

The suggestion that Ireland at present is a homogenous divisionless happyland where everyone lives identical borglike existences is a triumph of self-deception and delusion.

Yes, I agree too with the Gardi beating the s***e out of those protestors the other week rather than letting them have their say…

Oh? A characteristically sad attempt at moral equivalence or something else? A bunch of kids disrupting traffic for a couple of hours in protest at traffic congestion is dangerously subversive and sinister; a prelude to a blood drenched spiral of anarchic barbarism followed by the emergence of a 1984/Robocop/straight to dustbin Kurt Russell movie style authoritarian dictatorship hell maybe.

Christ Von, you really have to cut down on your sugar intake…

No way. Gotta be ready for the all out no nonsense global wog bashageddon that Robert Kaplan predicted in Warrior Politics.

Von · 20-05-2002 11:35am

Incidentally, a friend of mine works at formulating immigration policy for the new zealand govt. When she was here 4 years ago on a working holiday, she recognised that our policy was **** and the govt didn't have a bloody clue what it was doing. She asked them for a job to help out but they turned her down. Hmmphh.

Koopa · 20-05-2002 11:35am

Sometimes yes, sometimes no. But Ireland has the right to control who enters the country because it is an independent state, and there are plenty of people who would be willing to fight to keep it that way.

youre dodging my question, what made it an 'independant state' in the first place, who agreed that the land belonged to this group of people and no other? im trying to point out why countries formed in the first place (for protection from other groups of people, no other reason - once this reason is gone, then there is no use for countries anymore - im not saying its totally gone yet, just that its the only reason)

by your logic (that the irish own ireland because they are willing to fight for it), if 400 years from now, china is the biggest military power on earth, and decides, for no reason, that it doesnt recognise irelands right to exist, they could just nuke ireland "clean" and claim it, and that would be perfectly acceptable by you

Ah yes but you wouldn't be able to do any of these things would you? So your claim to them would have no practical meaning.

how do you know? if my right to antarctica was recognised by the UN, then i could easily sell oil or minerals or whatever from antarctica to other countries, making me an instant millionaire.. in fact, i could even do what the russians did with alaska, and sell the whole lot to america

quote:
if you dont recognise my right to claim these places, then i dont recognise the claim of whoever decided in 93454 BC that this island was going to be ireland, and owned by his tribe

So what? What are you going to do?

so your only defence of your state's claim to this land is how much force it can use to defend it? so basically, anyone who has the physical capability to take over ireland, is welcome to do so, nice one

Biffa Bacon · 20-05-2002 12:24pm

Incidentally, I wonder what you pro-multiculturalism people think of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Are Palestinians just being ignorant racists in trying to kick them out?

shotamoose · 20-05-2002 12:47pm

Incidentally, I wonder what you pro-multiculturalism people think of Israeli settlements in the West Bank. Are Palestinians just being ignorant racists in trying to kick them out?

I tend to dislike the use of settlement as a political tool. It contributed greatly to the ongoing nastiness in Northern Ireland and it is contributing greatly to the ongoing nastiness in Palestine. People moving into a country does not necessarily have this effect, but the forceful transplanting of communities from one place to another as part of a military campaign and as an attempt at cultural repression does. That's why those events aroused such a negative response - because they were military/political acts by a belligerent foreign force - and that's why such a response is not in any way justified against people who migrate from one place to another (a) for non military or political reasons or (b) to escape military or political aggression.

Biffa Bacon · 20-05-2002 1:00pm

youre dodging my question, what made it an 'independant state' in the first place, who agreed that the land belonged to this group of people and no other?

The people of Ireland decided that this land belonged to them and to no other and were willing to fight to assert their nationhood. Is this justified? Yes, people have the right to claim as their own the land they and their ancestors have been living in for centuries.

im trying to point out why countries formed in the first place (for protection from other groups of people, no other reason

I disagree. Countries exist for the purpose of mutual protection, yes, but also so that different people can live under different laws according to their customs, traditions, religion, etc.

by your logic (that the irish own ireland because they are willing to fight for it), if 400 years from now, china is the biggest military power on earth, and decides, for no reason, that it doesnt recognise irelands right to exist, they could just nuke ireland "clean" and claim it, and that would be perfectly acceptable by you

It would not be acceptable at all to me. The Irish own Ireland de facto because no other nation disputes this. This does not mean that this is a justification for them to own this land. The justification comes from the history of the Irish people.

how do you know? if my right to antarctica was recognised by the UN, then i could easily sell oil or minerals or whatever from antarctica to other countries, making me an instant millionaire.. in fact, i could even do what the russians did with alaska, and sell the whole lot to america

So what? Your claim to Antarctica is recognised by no one and will be recognised by no one. How does this negate the right of nations to exist?

Biffa Bacon · 20-05-2002 1:04pm

Originally posted by shotamoose

People moving into a country does not necessarily have this effect, but the forceful transplanting of communities from one place to another as part of a military campaign and as an attempt at cultural repression does.

But those Jewish settlers are going of their own free will. It's not part of a military campaign or an attempt at cultural repression. Are you seriously suggesting the Palestinians would quite happily welcome Jewish settlers into the West Bank if an independent Palestinian state was established there?

The Corinthian · 20-05-2002 1:09pm

Biffa unfortunately has to date either been on the defensive or just argues that multiculturalism is sort of bad without giving any coherent reason. I can see where he’s coming from, I just don’t agree in how he’s trying to explain it, so I thought I’d make a stab at it myself…

I suppose the first thing we should really ask is what really is a culture? From the Irish perspective, the concept of an Irish culture might be seen as the traditional Oirishness that R.A.McCartney appears to hark back too, were it not that it’s realistically a subculture, based upon a stereotype that is irrelevant to the vast majority of the population. Irish culture, as with any culture, is actually a very wide and diverse creature - forever evolving, with only a few major commonalities between them. Frankly, your average young professional with an apartment in Temple Bar would have far more in common with his or her counterpart in Turkey than with a junky down the road on Thomas Street. So why might multiculturalism be a bad thing, given that we arguably have it already?

As I said already, cultures tend to be diverse creatures, however, they generally do possess a few commonalities; first and foremost of these is citizenship. I don’t mean citizenship as a legal definition, but as an identity, and how we define ourselves. Are we Irish or not, or perhaps a hybrid identity? And from this where will our loyalties lie? Who do you cheer for in a football match? Would you take up arms to defend your nation? And would an allegiance to a foreign nation influence you?

For example, I am not Irish. I am Hiberno-Italian, racially and culturally - 50/50. Like it or not, whether here or in Italy, that’s all I’ll ever be. Should I ever have a son or daughter here, they will almost certainly identify themselves as just Irish. Likewise, if I returned (returned is a loaded term, I was only seven when I moved to Ireland) to Italy, and did the same, they would almost certainly identify themselves as Italian. I on the other hand would always remain italo-irlandese there.

Hence I am in many ways the definition of this multiculturalism that’s being discussed. And I would agree, that there are definite issues to the State with regard to identity and citizenship when you have such divided loyalties. Were I an elected Irish representative and in a position to act upon a matter that would benefit Ireland at the expense of Italy, I would choose to act in Ireland’s interests. Yet I would not do so out of loyalty or nationalism, but out of professionalism in my role. I would do the reverse were I an elected Italian representative, and act in Italy’s interests. If I couldn’t do that, then I would not be fit for the office in question.

So, for example, despite the fear of being automatically labelled anti-Semitic, I have always taken a dim light on elected representatives in Ireland, who have adopted a pro-Israel stance on account of simply being Jewish, as highly unprofessional, if not unethical.

A second commonality is that we all share points of reference, simply from living here. Education, geography, religion, popular media, slang, even current affairs are while never the same for all, it is rare that we will have nothing in common with a fellow co-national. The same is much harder to say of a complete foreigner. However, an interesting exception is often the child of an Irish diplomat, who may have received much if some cases all of their schooling abroad. I remember in college, the two daughters of journo attached to Brussles for years returning home and being like fish out of water.

Race, or more correctly appearance, is regrettably another factor. The colour of my own skin is white but sallow, and set me apart as a child, surrounded for the most part by pail freckled faces (not that I complain now, having discovered that I get an easier time of it when the finally sun comes out).

But I say appearance too, because fashion and dress is as important as the colour of one’s skin. I remember, as a child, continuous quasi-racist complaints about Spanish students on buses because they were “loud” - yet, oddly enough their more colourful clothes were almost always mentioned too.

Yet, beyond these commonalities, multiculturalism in itself is not a bad thing. Indeed, the introduction of new ideas, new philosophies and, frankly, new blood, is a healthy option for any culture. Cultural entrenchment, will always lead to stagnation and eventual collapse when a neighbouring and more dynamic culture decides to move in (by force, not peaceful migration). Humanity’s ability to adapt and innovate is what has put us at the top of the food chain, and arguably what was the deciding factor between us an the Neanderthals (who apparently weren’t as dumb and primitive as we’d first thought).

Integration of the new culture is necessary as much for the introduction of these new ideas as it is for anything else. However, where a new culture is introduced one must remember this integration and change is difficult. Ghettoization can occur as much out of choice of the immigrant as the native culture. Had I arrived as a child, without a word of English (which is close to the truth), and found myself surrounded by other Italians in school, my need to learn English would have been greatly diminished. Not only that, but I would have ended up socializing almost entirely with other Italians, never really integrating with the Irish around me. Hence, the manner and volume in which a new culture in introduced is important, in that if done badly, it can result in a perverse form of racism on the part of the immigrant culture.

In addition, if the change is too radical, it may not be accepted by the incumbent culture. Any integration process results in compromise and exchange. Peoples attitudes change, and what may have been alien to us in childhood, we first learn to examine, experiment and eventually adopt. Practically no one drank coffee in Ireland thirty years ago - it’s arguably more popular than tea now. But the immigrants compromise too, adapting and adopting Irish customs and habits - and why not, they’re not all bad! Indeed, stereotypical as it may be, my tolerance for beer is considered shocking by my Italian relatives (and quite a few of the Irish ones, actually).

The introduction of a new culture is like any shock to the system. History has taught us that we need it to survive in the long run, but like any shock to the system can also destabilize it. There is and always has been great diversity in Irish (or any other) culture, but as I’ve already pointed out it ultimately identifies itself as Irish. If (/me puts on cloth cap) we are to adopt new citizens and integrate them and many of their ways into out culture as they adopt ours, then it will not happen overnight, but within two or three generations, and it should ultimately be approached prudently, lest we foster ghettos and division rather than diversity in the future.

The Corinthian · 20-05-2002 1:10pm

Originally posted by Von
Loads more where that came from.

Keep it there.

Stupid thread, stupid argument.

The p1ss off and don’t post to it.

Anyhow, when people think of nazis they do tend to associate them with concepts of cultural and racial homogenity.

I see. I’d prefer to work with objectivity and facts myself.

Oh? A characteristically sad attempt at moral equivalence or something else? A bunch of kids disrupting traffic for a couple of hours in protest at traffic congestion is dangerously subversive and sinister; a prelude to a blood drenched spiral of anarchic barbarism followed by the emergence of a 1984/Robocop/straight to dustbin Kurt Russell movie style authoritarian dictatorship hell maybe.

If you’re in favour of taking away the right to free speech to some for the good of humanity or society, be it right or wrong, don’t come sobbing to us about someone doing the same to you or those who you might support.

Hold on, that can’t be right – you’re one of the good guys, aren’t you? :rolleyes:

Rufus T Firefly · 20-05-2002 1:12pm

I was born and bred in England. In the area I grew up in 1 out of every 4 people was from an ethic minority. 1 in every 10 was Irish. According to those afraid/worried by the notion of a multi-cultural society, this was a tinderbox waiting to catch fire.

Now here's a strange thing. Not once in 20 years did I see racial violence in my home town of near 100,000 people. Not that racial violence doesn't exist, simply that we seemed remarkably free of it.

I mixed with West Indians, Ukranians, Italians, Pakistanis, Polish and even the odd Mick. Some people from ethnic backgrounds assimilated into a more English way of life, some didn't. It hardly made any difference - 'each to their own' seemed to be the unspoken understanding.

So what was the magic ingredient for this multicultural nirvana? A lack of poverty. The town was in the South East of England and employment was high, salaries were good. Everyone lived well, so no one begrudged the person next door their living, no matter what background they had. Or how they chose to live.

Most people round these boards obviously didn't grow up in a multicultural society, so I'll explain it simply. Multiculturalism does not cause trouble. Poverty does.

Get a group and systematically exclude them - Catholics in the North - and you engender resentment and social unrest. Take a section of society and disenfranchise them - young black males in places like Bristol - and you have the makings of serious upheaval. In places like Oldham and Burnley, if both white and Asian working class people had decent standards of living and good houses to live in, there would be no race riots.

By all means have a sensible immigration policy, that takes cognisance of the Irish economy's ability to support the population. But it's a long way from there to saying that because people come to this country, live in a different way and bring different traditions, the country will be corrupted and riven by social upheaval.

We don't need to have the Estonians and Nigerians dancing at the crossroads to avoid that scenario, just give them the chance and opportunities to make decent livelihoods.

mike65 · 20-05-2002 6:36pm

Its interesting that the most reasonable posts have come from
immigrants, if you are one and I like The Corinthian have lived here since childhood, you have a good insight into the way the native and outsider see one another. Which means we tend to be
more willing to be more decent skins I suspect, some of the natives on this board simply bluster from a position of ignorance as they've never been a "blow-in" so have no notion of seeing Ireland and the Irish through two cultural lenses, our inherited one and our adopted one, and guess what, two lenses improve
ones vision.

Mike.

Sand · 20-05-2002 7:55pm

you seem to be in agreement with far-right parties on the issue of multiculturalism, viz. They say "It doesn't work", "They don't try to fit in." How does your argument against it differ from their official one? All those parties deny being nazi parties by the way and they all say the same thing as you if anyone accuses them of being such "Anyone who tries to question multiculturalism gets called a nazi." etc. You want a “homogenous” society. The BNP wants an “all-white” society. Explain the difference please.

I can list examples of multiculturalism off all day long, and have, where it doesnt work. Its not case of "saying". I ask you, do you think the Irish Government can get right what so many others have got so badly wrong? I dont. And Im not interested in a homogenous- all white society - Im pretty right of center so I belive in individual rights and loosley "dont bother me and I wont bother you" - hence I dont honestly care what colour you are, what your accent sounds like, who or what you pray too, what you eat or dont eat, or who/what you shag - I could honestly care less Von. Its laughable to suggest I want an all white society, if that were the case a relative of mine might be on the first boat out of here. I simply dont see why Ireland needs to take on a group of any one given nationality that is large enough to sustain its own culture - as has been shown time and time again this leads to heavy social costs. Immigration in and of itself is fine so long as it suits Irelands economic needs - we should just be careful not to allow multiculturalism (i.e not an integrated culture but rather two sperate competing cultures).

Perhaps some people might develop a less insular, arrogant, infantile, ignorant view of the world and realise that their prejudices and preconceived notions about other races are ill-informed at best and that they might need to reconsider their entire approach to life and re-evaluate their personal values. I’d also say that an influx of new people with new ideas will spur the production of new art, film, literature and music but unless you’re concerned with stuff like that, it probably doesn’t count.

So all in all youre justification for multiculturalism is that itll solve racism (unproven at the very least) and add new ideas which couldnt be got by actually looking at other cultures anyway? Well sign me up. Why didnt they think of this solution for the north years ago?

Your repeated attempts to hold NI up as a classic case of the multicultural nightmare are getting less and less amusing and more and more wilfully ignorant. Which side represents the immigrants/asylum seekers then? And why?

You see youre coming into this discussing ( ranting about? ) immigration- Im discussing multiculturalism. Northern Ireland is a perfect example of multiculturalism. The Balkans are another. Why havent these eliminated racism and become cultural centers to rival the best in the world?

We don't need to have the Estonians and Nigerians dancing at the crossroads to avoid that scenario, just give them the chance and opportunities to make decent livelihoods.

Agreed - the chance and the opportunity is extremely important, however I simply dont believe the Irish government can do this. Many other more experienced and resourced governments have failed.

Twomey · 20-05-2002 8:07pm

Northern Ireland is a perfect example of multiculturalism?????

Hello?

Have you ever lived or been somewhere that really is "multi-cultural"? Northern Ireland is not. Northern Ireland is the result of politics, not 'multiculturalism'.

Oh my god that is such a bad example. Try London, Los Angeles, New York, all places that have good and bad issues with their mulitculturalism, but are much vibrant and dynamic than the whole of Northern Ireland. Even Dublin is more multicultural than the north.

The reason the north is so f-cked up is not 'multiculturalism' or even (more accurately) 'pluralism', is the politics of the place - which are not based on multiculturalism.

Jaysus, Sand. Live a little, wouldja?

dathi1 · 20-05-2002 9:51pm

I’d also say that an influx of new people with new ideas will spur the production of new art, film, literature and music

yes like in the suburbs of Walthamslow, Burnley and Oldham. Also your hippy utopian multicultural ideas are great in theory but never work in practice. Even Tito coulndnt hold the "Yugoslavs" together.

I think the old 60s idea of multiculturalism is dead and a new more controlled immigration system for Europe is needed...some like Pim Fortuyn's policies would be more acceptable to most people in the EU.

Sharkey · 20-05-2002 10:40pm

Originally posted by dathi1

I think the old 60s idea of multiculturalism is dead and a new more controlled immigration system for Europe is needed...some like Pim Fortuyn's policies would be more acceptable to most people in the EU.

So politically incorrect, but so true. May god spare Ireland the blessing of multi-culturalism.

here in the U.S. people come to escape the sh!tholes they come from -- then they want to recreate the same cultural atmosphere that made their countires sh!tholes.

Biffa Bacon · 21-05-2002 10:19am

Biffa unfortunately has to date either been on the defensive or just argues that multiculturalism is sort of bad without giving any coherent reason. I can see where he’s coming from, I just don’t agree in how he’s trying to explain it, so I thought I’d make a stab at it myself…

Fair play to you Corinthian. A few points though…

I suppose the first thing we should really ask is what really is a culture? From the Irish perspective, the concept of an Irish culture might be seen as the traditional Oirishness that R.A.McCartney appears to hark back too, were it not that it’s realistically a subculture, based upon a stereotype that is irrelevant to the vast majority of the population. Irish culture, as with any culture, is actually a very wide and diverse creature - forever evolving, with only a few major commonalities between them. Frankly, your average young professional with an apartment in Temple Bar would have far more in common with his or her counterpart in Turkey than with a junky down the road on Thomas Street. So why might multiculturalism be a bad thing, given that we arguably have it already?
As I said already, cultures tend to be diverse creatures, however, they generally do possess a few commonalities; first and foremost of these is citizenship. I don’t mean citizenship as a legal definition, but as an identity, and how we define ourselves. Are we Irish or not, or perhaps a hybrid identity? And from this where will our loyalties lie? Who do you cheer for in a football match? Would you take up arms to defend your nation? And would an allegiance to a foreign nation influence you?

What you are talking about in terms of the yuppie and the junky is really differences in lifestyle rather than differences in culture. As you’ve pointed out, in terms of the multiculturalism debate, “culture” really refers to national identity, which means that multiculturalism is all about having a lot of different national identities co-existing within the one nation. Even if you agree with allowing large-scale immigration, why is multiculturalism better than assimilation as an outcome?

Yet, beyond these commonalities, multiculturalism in itself is not a bad thing. Indeed, the introduction of new ideas, new philosophies and, frankly, new blood, is a healthy option for any culture…Integration of the new culture is necessary as much for the introduction of these new ideas as it is for anything else.

Let’s not get confused between multiculturalism and multiracialism here. The beneficial aspects of multiculturalism you mention are benefits of multiracialism surely? We could have total assimilation of the immigrant groups, i.e. no multiculturalism, and yet still have the benefits of multiracialism.

Attention Ostriches!

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