Palestinian "Terrorist" to come to Ireland.

Victor

Originally posted by bonkey
Note: No - they were not terrorists. They limited their targets to military and government officials of what they saw as an occupying force. Yes, there were innocent casualties, but everyone keeps telling me that this is expected in war, and while tragic is accepted. So they were freedom fighting or using guerrilla warfare. They were not employing terrorism.

No, there are specific incidents where civilians were targeted, especially in West Cork as counter-reprisals, e.g. the IRA shoot a soldier, the British Army burns 3 houses of 'sympathisers', the IRA burns 10 houses of local Protestants / landlords / big farmers. (sorry for going OT)

bugler

I think if you're going to use specific incidents in order to label whole movements/campaigns/armies then there has never been an army/movement/campaign in existence that could not be described as "terrorist".

dathi1

try this methodology to the families of the dead and injured and see how far you get.

You mean you would ask Palestinian "accidentally killed on purpose" relatives the same question??

Wheres Jihad?? I want to give him a medal. For bravery, Standing up for his countrymen, Fighting the land grabbers, Doing a runner and saving his own skin and surviving the largest American backed land grabbing, occuping military machine in the world. A real politcal Refugee for a change. Ps: No extradition

PHB

I'm sorry but I'm incredibly pro-palestine and I think that this terrorist should be brought to justice but I think that it was a nessacary solution to the seige for them to come here. He is exiled, i.e he can't return to his own country, and I don't think he enjoys full rights of a citazin

mike65

dathi1,

Are you the same dathi1/daithi on the boards at
www.dannymorrison.com by any chance?

Mike.

dathi1

geez ..he even set up his own site.....I think he's a bit weird but interesting to read / listen. No not me there are loads of Daithis around except I misspell mine without the first i

Bateman

Its easy for state terrorism to be confused with state defence when you have the propaganda machine that is Israel constantly coming out with the crap that they do. I think it says it all when you see Israeli soldiers killing young Palestinian girls out feeding sheep, and then the 14 yo sister of the dead girl says "I'm next in the queue to be a suicide bomber". Thats powerful, but far from defending it, we have to try to understand WHY people are willing to do this.

bonkey

Originally posted by Bateman
I think it says it all when you see Israeli soldiers killing young Palestinian girls out feeding sheep, and then the 14 yo sister of the dead girl says "I'm next in the queue to be a suicide bomber". Thats powerful, but far from defending it, we have to try to understand WHY people are willing to do this.

Actually - I dont really think it is defensible.

The 14yo sister you refer to is not seeking revenge, nor justice. She is not going after her sister's killers. She is turning herself into a worse form of the individuals she is striking back at. They killed some innocent people, so she will kill some innocent people.

I never believed in taking "an eye for an eye" that far.

I could understand her joining armed resistance which fought against the Israeli military. I cannot understand her wanting to be the same type of killer that took her sister from her.

There's a deeper reason. Unless we assert that the Palestinians are unique in how they seek to avenge the deaths of their loved ones, there must be other factors.

These factors are what we need to discover.

jc

Getting back to the subject of the thread, Palestinian "Terrorist" to come to Ireland....

Why is he being brought here? I mean, like, why should we expend resources on protecting him from the Israeli's? give him to Israel... let them deal with him. What right have we to jump in on the problem between palestine and israel? Seems to me that the rest of the world is making a big enough hash of things without Ireland joining in....

Regardless of which explanation of terrorism, this person is a crinimal and should be treated as such. If a member of the Sept 11th came to ireland, they'd be a huge hurry to pass him, to the americans for "justice".


One other point. You mentioned Michael Collins and such earlier on. That was not Terrorism. That was Guerilla Warfare. There is a difference. Terrorism exists when there is no state of war. Collins and the old IRB declared the war, fought the british army (& its informers), and won our freedom. Personally i find myself sickened when an irishman will compare Collins & such to the present day terrorists, especially when you owe your freedom to their efforts.

But then thats just me.

dathi1

One other point. You mentioned Michael Collins and such earlier on. That was not Terrorism. That was Guerilla Warfare. There is a difference. Terrorism exists when there is no state of war. Collins and the old IRB declared the war, fought the british army (& its informers), and won our freedom. Personally i find myself sickened when an irishman will compare Collins & such to the present day terrorists, especially when you owe your freedom to their efforts.

To be honest I think Collins done a good job of instigating our intifada back then. Although I don’t think Jihad (our man in Ireland) would have a patch on him.........Collins was no nice guy guerilla warfare leader...remember he planed and shot many of his victims whilst still in bed. Also many of them were ordinary Dubliners working on behalf of the British civil service...and most people at the time totally repudiated his actions. I’m not one for using the word terrorist but Collins wasn’t far off the mark.

---I’m not one for using the word terrorist but Collins wasn’t far off the mark.---


Just a mark of the times. I don't disagree with you abt what collins did. Thats documentated. However i Do believe that there is an unbelieveable gap in comparing collins to a modern day terrorist.

---Wheres Jihad?? I want to give him a medal. For bravery, Standing up for his countrymen, Fighting the land grabbers, Doing a runner and saving his own skin and surviving the largest American backed land grabbing, occuping military machine in the world----

By rights i should be supporting Jihad, right? Well no.

1) Palestine didn't exist 50 years ago. Its a combination of many arab beliefs, and cultural entities. Palestine is a modern term created by accident when israel invaded arab occupied areas.

2) Its funny when people look at this area of conflict, and totally forget that the Arab Nations attacked Israel first. Think bck to when Israel stunned the world with a military counter-attack that amazed military specialists in their ability to crush a larger, better equiped army. Palestine was born at the moment that Israel refused to draw bck from Arab territories. My Respect is for Israel in this instance. (Remember Israel was not backed by America at this stage, and the Arab nations were partially bcked by Russia. Also there was no ban on importing weapons to the Arabs, when it was frowned by America/Europe for weapons to be allowed into Israel)

3) Suicide Bombing is the worst case of slaughter of the last 40 years. Fine... if they want to limit their attacks to military targets then they'll receive some sympathy from me, but the methods they use only give Israel, the right to deal with them in any way possoble (at least in my eyes).

The arabs and the Israeli's have been having this War of theirs ever since the British withdrew from their colonies after WW2. From the books i have read, and the documentaries on TV that i have seen, it has been countries such as Jordan, Egypt, and Syria that have hounded Israel for the last 60 years. The people living in the area called Palestine are a by-product of that madness.

Give this Terrorist to the israeli's. Let them have justice for the crimes that he has performed. Extradite the slime.

Victor

Originally posted by klaz
Why is he being brought here? I mean, like, why should we expend resources on protecting him from the Israeli's? give him to Israel... let them deal with him. What right have we to jump in on the problem between palestine and israel? Seems to me that the rest of the world is making a big enough hash of things without Ireland joining in....

Perhaps we have a duty to accpet him?

---Perhaps we have a duty to accpet him?---

why?

This man is a crinimal. Let him be brought to justice.

Fine. If we are to accept him. Then let him be tried for his crimes and sentenced.

Victor

Originally posted by klaz
This man is a crinimal. Let him be brought to justice. Fine. If we are to accept him. Then let him be tried for his crimes and sentenced.

Who says they are criminals? Who's definition are we to use? What crime do you say they have committed (when you don't even know their names)?

Accepting them here gives breathing space for some conflict resolution. Conflict resolution usually involves the necessity to be creative while ensuring fairness.

--- Who says they are criminals? Who's definition are we to use? What crime do you say they have committed (when you don't even know their names)?

Accepting them here gives breathing space for some conflict resolution. Conflict resolution usually involves the necessity to be creative while ensuring fairness ----


I must admit that i don't know their names. Do you? And i fail to see why, i don't know their names, excludes them from the premise that they committed a crime.

Also i have said earlier that i think that they should be tried by a court either by Israel or by us. The courts would decide whether they are crinimals. I've assumed that they are terrorists, maybe incorrectly by the simple fact that nearly everything that is linked to palestine is corncerned with their suicide bombers.

Have you a specific link to any news article online, that gives an unbiased view of their circumstances & the reasons why they are coming to Ireland?

--- breathing space for some conflict resolution.---

As for this, i seem to remember that before israel sent in their tanks, a plea was made by israel for peace. And what happened? More suicide attacks by Palestinians.

Xterminator

Originally posted by klaz
---
Also i have said earlier that i think that they should be tried by a court either by Israel or by us. The courts would decide whether they are crinimals. I've assumed that they are terrorists, maybe incorrectly by the simple fact that nearly everything that is linked to palestine is corncerned with their suicide bombers.

As for this, i seem to remember that before israel sent in their tanks, a plea was made by israel for peace. And what happened? More suicide attacks by Palestinians.

Perhaps if they were going to get a fair trial, then that might be appropriate, providing we had an extradition treaty with Israel.

But seeing as Israel has vowed to assasinate these people, and has no intention of giving them a trial (surely you believe in the right to a fair trial?) then the correct thing to do is to protect there human rights. (Surely you believe they have basic human rights?)

X

Victor

Originally posted by klaz
I must admit that i don't know their names. Do you? And i fail to see why, i don't know their names, excludes them from the premise that they committed a crime.

No, I don't know their names. So in an attempt to be reasonable, I am not accusing someone (who's identity I do not know) of a crime (have specific charges been made?). I argue that you are making either an unfair or unreasonable presumption.

Originally posted by klaz
Also i have said earlier that i think that they should be tried by a court either by Israel or by us.

But there is no accusation generally or specifically of these men committing a crime in either Israel or Ireland.

Originally posted by klaz
I've assumed that they are terrorists, maybe incorrectly by the simple fact that nearly everything that is linked to palestine is corncerned with their suicide bombers.

Which I think unfairly judges both side in the conflict.

Originally posted by klaz
Have you a specific link to any news article online, that gives an unbiased view of their circumstances & the reasons why they are coming to Ireland?

I'm not sure if one exists. It is nigh impossible to be not taken by one, other or both (or all?) sides.

Originally posted by klaz
--- breathing space for some conflict resolution.---
As for this, i seem to remember that before israel sent in their tanks, a plea was made by israel for peace. And what happened? More suicide attacks by Palestinians.

I don't remember any specific plea, but it would seem difficult to accept a plea when it is made by the party that has the upper hand.

dathi1

Palestine didn't exist 50 years ago. Its a combination of many arab beliefs, and cultural entities. Palestine is a modern term created by accident when israel invaded arab occupied areas.

Wrong again the Land Of Palestine and trans Jordan has always existed...well before the settlement of European Jews in 1942-1948. The Biblical Kingdom of Israel existed also. Hashimites, Yemenites, Jordanians, Assyrians made up the bulk of the population until 1948. The then 2% Jewish population exploded which resulted in Palestinians being thrown out of their houses and land from Haifa in the North to Eliat in the south. The Israeli State was then set up by the UN at the behest of the British and the Jewish paramilitary stern gang and other Zionists won the Day with a Jewish State for Jewish people. Weather you like it or not the day will come when the Palestinian people will get the state they deserve...just like the Kuwaitis, Iraqis, Lebanese and of course us the Irish.

bonkey

Originally posted by klaz
Also i have said earlier that i think that they should be tried by a court either by Israel or by us.

Technically, I dont think Ireland can try them. They are not Irish citizens, nor are they alleged to have comitted any crimes in Ireland.

Israel has a better claim to try them, except that its jurisdiction in the particular region has long been contested by Palestine. For an international court, or any individual nation to grant the Israeli's jurisdiction would involve that nation making a definitive statement on who's jurisdiction it recognises - Palestine's or Israel's.

I cant think of any nation bold enough to make that step, nor can I imagine the Israelis and Palestinians agreeing to such arbitration.

Personally, I am now of the opinion that the deal was brokered with both sides firmly intending to screw the other, and leaving the door open for them to do so.

Israel wanted the men extradited, and stated as much pretty much as soon as they landed in Cyprus. They only wanted them banished from Palestine - not Israel - leaving the door open for them to claim jurisdiction (because the Palestinians cannot try and punish them without allowing them back into the country, which would be in breach of the agreement).

Palestine, on the other hand, is playing the human rights card, pointing out that while these men remain unconvicted of a crime by a court who has jurisdiction over them, it is a breach of their human rights to restrict their movement and to deny them re-entry to their home nation.

End result - yet another stalemate which will ultimately have a bad ending one way or the other. Why did it end up this way? As I said - its my belief that it ended this way because both sides brokered a deal they intend to stick to the letter of, but which they made sure left them enough grounds to screw the other side with.

When the two governments deal with each other in this way, is it any wonder that they talk about not trusting each other. Neither is dealing in good faith - so one casting aspersions on the other is just another pot and kettle affair really.....

jc