56k Analog over ISDN

Urban Weigl

I was wondering as you get POTS ports with ISDN so that you may continue using your analog phone and fax machine, is it also possible to use an analog 56k modem instead of getting a terminal adaptor?

I read somewhere that it is, and I don't see why it wouldn't be. So what I'm mainly wondering is what speed you would get (i.e. ~ 40kbps).

SkepticOne

You should get the spead of a reasonable analogue line. Last time I had ISDN I was able to get about 45-46 kbs. I would still recommend getting a terminal adapter as the latency is much lower and this makes web browsing more useable.

HaVoC

what are you thinking? 56k modem on a isdn line
just today i saw an isdn ta for 40 euros, surely you're not that cheap, and that was a phone shop, you could find it cheaper

youre a muppet
youre a muppet
youre a muppet
youre a muppet
youre a muppet
youre a muppet

i mean come on thats like attatching a caravan to a dodge viper
stoopid

stoopid


i mean come on, 56k on isdn-AAAHHH thick

i'm going to shut up now............

jmcc

Originally posted by HaVoC
what are you thinking? 56k modem on a isdn line
just today i saw an isdn ta for 40 euros, surely you're not that cheap, and that was a phone shop, you could find it cheaper

A lot of reasons exist for using a 56K modem on ISDN. My favourite is that after paying the rip-off monthly fee and the per minute call charges to the scum in Eircom, there is no money left to pay for an ISDN TA.

Then there is the fact that some older fax software will not work with the cheaper ISDN TAs and thus needs an upgrade.

Admittedly it is a shame to waste the ISDN bandwidth like tha even it if is only a paltry 64K. The latency does go down by about 100 mS over an analog line giving a ping of 40 - 60 mS.

i mean come on thats like attatching a caravan to a dodge viper

Yes I was trying to figure out why attaching a string of camels to a snake was a good thing until I realised you were talking about a car.

i mean come on, 56k on isdn-AAAHHH thick

Isn't ISDN in some regions actually 56K with 8K being reserved for signalling?

Regards...jmcc

bkehoe

Don't forget that NoLimits can only be used over 56k.....Upgrading to ISDN and still having a pots line is necessary if you want to keep your offpeak flat rate.

hudson806

Originally posted by jmcc
Isn't ISDN in some regions actually 56K with 8K being reserved for signalling?

Sorta. ISDN voice calls are 56k with 8k for signalling. Data calls are always 64k. Because of pricing differentials in some countries, 'voice' (56k) calls are unmetered but data calls (64k) are metered.

Many customers take adavantage of this by using their TA in Data-over-voice mode, which is 56k and therefore unmetered. Its 56k ISDN and somewhat better than plugging an analogue modem into an ISDN line.

Not much point in trying this in Ireland as ISDN, Data and PSTN calls are all charged at the same rate.

Urban Weigl

Originally posted by bkehoe
Don't forget that NoLimits can only be used over 56k.....Upgrading to ISDN and still having a pots line is necessary if you want to keep your offpeak flat rate.

Yes indeed, and this is precisely why I want to be able to continue using my 56k even after I upgrade my line to ISDN. So now after reading everything, I have made the following assumptions:

1. It is possible to use a 56k modem over ISDN
2. You will get a pretty descent connection speed (around 40-50kbps, yes laughable compared to the 768kbps that I have in Germany but oh well)
3. And finally and most importantly, I will be able to continue using NoLimits through this setup?

Turner

I connect at 49.2kb/s with my 56k through my isdn line. not bad i suppose...

SantaHoe

is it also possible to use an analog 56k modem instead of getting a terminal adaptor?

Yep, but I'd shell out the extra £40 and get a TA if I were you
I didn't notice any improvement by using my ISDN's POTS over my old single line POTS. (~45,333 bps, but it may have just been my modem)
There again, it's nice to know you can still use your old modem while you're waiting to buy your TA... or if your TA goes tits-up.

Urban Weigl

Originally posted by SantaHoe

Yep, but I'd shell out the extra £40 and get a TA if I were you
I didn't notice any improvement by using my ISDN's POTS over my old single line POTS. (~45,333 bps, but it may have just been my modem)
There again, it's nice to know you can still use your old modem while you're waiting to buy your TA... or if your TA goes tits-up.

Please read my previous post: I want to be able to continue using my NoLimits account, and that - unfortunately - does not support ISDN. So what I wanted to know is whether I can use my 56k modem when I upgrade to ISDN, and whether that will allow me to use NoLimits as before.

Edit: By the way, I rang Eircon's ISDN department with the same question before posting here, and they said that no, using a 56k would not be possible. The super-knowledgeable(yeah right) Eircon phone-answering guy kept saying "64k is four times faster than 56k". Of course I didn't say anything, but jesus this guy needs to learn how to count. :eek:

HaVoC

just so you know, the eircom phone guy was probably trying to explain how stupid it is to use a 56k on ISDN, and don't make fun of someone if you can't even spell EIRCOM right, see thats an m not an n

jmcc

Originally posted by HaVoC
just so you know, the eircom phone guy was probably trying to explain how stupid it is to use a 56k on ISDN, and don't make fun of someone if you can't even spell EIRCOM right, see thats an m not an n

People online generally refer to Eircom as being EirCON. The clue here is in how this company tries to flog a 30 year old technology as being high speed. This is in effect a con job. ISDN was fast years ago but these people branded it as Hi-Speed. I even believe that one of their marketing people recently claimed that there was no demand for ADSL. It worries me that my tax Euros may be used to support these lusers when their jobs are cut.

Regards...jmcc

Saruman

Originally posted by HaVoC
i mean come on thats like attatching a caravan to a dodge viper

Anyone see the tv show that shows just that? The dodge still manages to tear down the road or track with a caravan!!

steve-hosting36

64k ISDN actually IS about 4 times faster than 56k analog - in the sense that a 64k isdn line can usually connect at anything from 10-20 Kbps, whereas a 56k modem will usually not give you better than 3-4kbps,

Sometime, only sometimes, Eircom know what they are talking about

Steve

Gavin

Originally posted by HaVoC
just so you know, the eircom phone guy was probably trying to explain how stupid it is to use a 56k on ISDN, and don't make fun of someone if you can't even spell EIRCOM right, see thats an m not an n

Havoc. Relax with your posts. No need to insult the fellow. Wanting to use analog over ISDN is a fairly common question.

as for the eircom spelling.. I'll assume that you are serious. Some folks like to believe eircom as being a big con.. ie eircon

Gav

jmcc

Originally posted by steve-hosting36
64k ISDN actually IS about 4 times faster than 56k analog - in the sense that a 64k isdn line can usually connect at anything from 10-20 Kbps, whereas a 56k modem will usually not give you better than 3-4kbps,

Sometime, only sometimes, Eircom know what they are talking about

Huh? I really need that second mug of coffee now.

The ISDN [1] line will give 64Kb/s or about 6-7 KBytes/s. The 56K will only give 56Kb/s on the down channel (under ideal circumstances) but the up channel is limited to 33K6. Even with Stac compression on the ISDN connection, the rates may approach 8KBytes/s but not 10-20KBytes/s. The 10K-20K are more 128K ISDN figures.

On dual ISDN (128K) most long file transfers average out at about 15KB/s depending on the location of the ftp site.

Regards...jmcc

[1] 64 Kilobits rather than KiloBytes. It is only when you render it into Kilobytes that you realise what a third world kip that this country is due to the lack of broadband.

SantaHoe

Originally posted by Urban Weigl
Please read my previous post:

I read it thanks.

So what I wanted to know is whether I can use my 56k modem when I upgrade to ISDN

Please read my previous post where I already said: Y E S.

and whether that will allow me to use NoLimits as before.

Haven't a clue, since I got kicked off SNL long before I got ISDN.

No need to jump down my throat because I didn't answer 100% of your questions, nobody has to answer your post at all you know... we're not your bitches like.
<JarJarBinks> HOW RUDE!! </JarJarBinks>

elexes

isdn + oceanfree = win

po0k

Originally posted by jmcc


Huh? I really need that second mug of coffee now.

The ISDN [1] line will give 64Kb/s or about 6-7 KBytes/s. The 56K will only give 56Kb/s on the down channel (under ideal circumstances) but the up channel is limited to 33K6. Even with Stac compression on the ISDN connection, the rates may approach 8KBytes/s but not 10-20KBytes/s. The 10K-20K are more 128K ISDN figures.

On dual ISDN (128K) most long file transfers average out at about 15KB/s depending on the location of the ftp site.

Regards...jmcc

[1] 64 Kilobits rather than KiloBytes. It is only when you render it into Kilobytes that you realise what a third world kip that this country is due to the lack of broadband.

I had this exact same argument with a mate before.
He had been talking to some germans wh had ISDN (it being standard and all over there).
I put it down to either incorrect measurement software (like windows downloader, or some sort of caching thing for half the stuff being viewed) or that the IDSN was using some sort of compression unknown to me (whoch is also a high possibility).
ISDN throughput is about 2 that of a 56k connection, allowing for overheads, due to the latency I think.
I've never sat down infront of an ISDN conenction before, so I can't say for certain.
I'd sure ;ike to clear this up once and for all though, maybe make this thread a sticky?

Synkronite

The Question..
Can you use your TA on an ISDN line to connect to IOL No Limits?

It's kind of like back in the early days when I had a blazingly fast 33.6Kbps modem and my ISP would only support upto 28.8Kbps- so I would always get connected at 28.8Kbps. I know that was same technology and this is a difference between Digital and Analogue modems, but atleast there would be a digital connection to Esat's modems just limited to 56Kbps? Im not sure if I make much sense, my knowledge of the telecommunication system is rather limited, so my apologies for sounding stupid.

Currently with my analogue line I connect to IOL No Limits at 44Kbps or 45.2Kbps on good days- with average download speeds at about 3-4 K/sec.

Now say if I got an ISDN line- and used a TA (if possible to connect to No Limits) or my 56K modem- since the ISDN line *is* digital - ie. _less_ noise, does that mean I can hope to connect at maybe 49Kbps - or even still at my usual 45.2Kbps but get download speeds of 4-5 K/sec instead of 3-4 K/sec?

--
Every company talks about broadband internet.. for us users in Cork, it seems like we'll be waiting a good few years. And by then Id have hopefully graduated from college and settled in Germany

Blade

Originally posted by HaVoC
just so you know, the eircom phone guy was probably trying to explain how stupid it is to use a 56k on ISDN, and don't make fun of someone if you can't even spell EIRCOM right, see thats an m not an n

What a newbie, it's quite obvious that you haven't got a clue, if you've nothing constructive to say just shut your gob.

Plenty of people have both TA's and modems in their machines so they can use flat rate SNL on modem or ISDN if they need the speed. And EirCON is a commonly used name for a company thats been ripping off this country since before you were born. If you weren't such a newbie llama you'd know that.

po0k

*slap*
Lid closes on n00b-box

fabien

Guys,

Probably stupid questions, but can somenone enlighten me please...thanks:

I just got ISDN installed and I tried connecting through the PHONE ports (don't have a TA yet) , and I could only get 33.6 Kbps on each port.

Question 1: should I be able to connect at better speed than that through the phone ports? If so, what could be the issue? Could I combine the 2 ports somehow to get better speed?

Question 2: Can I use the ISDN ports with a 56K analogue modem? If so, is there any special setup needed?

I know you're probably wondering why I would bother with analog, it's a personal cost issue.

Thanks a lot.

strat

Originally posted by fabien

Question 1: should I be able to connect at better speed than that through the phone ports? If so, what could be the issue? Could I combine the 2 ports somehow to get better speed?

Nope- i still get a terriably woeful speed if i use 56k on the isdn i have at home

Originally posted by fabien

Question 2: Can I use the ISDN ports with a 56K analogue modem? If so, is there any special setup needed?

Im not 100% sure but its highly unlikley, just use a regular phone double adapter on the rj-11/phone ports on the isdn box if u need more slots

po0k

ISDN uses voltage levels, analogue uses waveforms. They are not compatible.
I serisously doubt you could use a 56k analogue modem on a 64k jack.
You've probably fry the isdn box in your house or the modem, or at worst the hookup in the exchange.

spongebob

There are two types of ISDN box

1. The older one which comes with 2 x RJ45 only. Uses the same voltage as POTS btw so nothing happens if u plug a modem into it...has to be a TA or nothin.

2. The newer one , gloriously misnamed as 'Hi-Speed'. This comes with 2xrj45 pure ISDN ports and 2 x RJ11 analog ports so u dont have to buy all ISDN kit for ur house (ouch) . It has a built in A/D convertor to port the analog to isdn on the spot.

It is with the latter unit that the 56k speeds were woeful I suspect, the inbuilt a/d convertors are fairly cheap. Complain about noise and crackling on the analog ports and get the unit replaced....blame todays thunderstorms if u live in the wesht or south.

With a good quality a/d convertor I once got 53.3k connect speed with a fairly crappy modem while testing it thru an Meridian with PRI out to €ircon.

M

Snaga

Originally posted by elexes
isdn + oceanfree = win

specially since it allows multiple channels now.

fabien

Originally posted by Muck
There are two types of ISDN box

1. The older one which comes with 2 x RJ45 only. Uses the same voltage as POTS btw so nothing happens if u plug a modem into it...has to be a TA or nothin.

2. The newer one , gloriously misnamed as 'Hi-Speed'. This comes with 2xrj45 pure ISDN ports and 2 x RJ11 analog ports so u dont have to buy all ISDN kit for ur house (ouch) . It has a built in A/D convertor to port the analog to isdn on the spot.

It is with the latter unit that the 56k speeds were woeful I suspect, the inbuilt a/d convertors are fairly cheap. Complain about noise and crackling on the analog ports and get the unit replaced....blame todays thunderstorms if u live in the wesht or south.

With a good quality a/d convertor I once got 53.3k connect speed with a fairly crappy modem while testing it thru an Meridian with PRI out to €ircon.

M

Thanks
I don't understand how replacing the unit might help? Would they give me a different one, a better one?
Would it be any good using the 2 analog ports together?

spongebob

get it replaced, fried by lightning , funny noises on it since this morning.

using 2 ports will cost u twice as much, analog multilinking is crap.

M

De Rebel

Fabien

On the odd occasions that I use a 56K modem to connect to the analog ports on my "High Speed" box, I get speeds around 48K. Pre isdn on the same line/same modems i got about 43k If you consistently get less, complain complain complain.

You cannot use an analog modem on the ISDN ports. It won't work, and may damage something.

Seriously consider getting and ISDN TA (modem). Search around and you will get cheap one. I got one last month in cash converters for Eur 10 - its an old ISA Eicon. Stuck it in an old PC and it does the 64k connect every time. There is F**k all in a passive ISDN TA, its a far less complex beast that an analog modem (as I understand it its passing a digital signal from one wire to another, adding nothing but a spot of handshaking and conditioning) so cheap should work for you about 30/40euro would be plenty to spend.

Hope this helps

fabien

Thanks, considering I live in the -real- countryside, I don't think there's much they can do about my analogue line, but I am going to follow your advice and get a cheap TA.

Thanks all for your input.