Fianna Fà l are crap!!!!!!!!!!

Cork

I think that the FG manifesto did make some mighty big promises. Compensating Eircom shareholders and Taxi men to name a couple.

The FF manifesto was very restrained in comparisson.

Promises win votes. The FG manifesto contained some crazy ones

dahamsta

Cork, no-one is denying that Fine Gael screwed up. In fact, I think most people will accept that Noonan made a right haimes of the entire election, and his deputies acceptance of him and his methods was questionable at best; sheer idiocy at worst. Neither is anyone here deluding themselves that a new Leader is enough to gain the respect of the Irish people.

However that doesn't make your continued, outright partisan, blinkered acceptance and advocacy of Fianna Fáil, their leader and their principles correct. Fianna Fáil are far - very far - from being a "good" party, and that's even before we get to the fact that there's a big difference between the party in power, and the party in Opposition.

I would submit that when you get right down to it, Irish politics as a whole is a sham and a disgrace, and it's going to take a decade to pick up the pieces of some of Fianna Fáil's "initiatives"; some of which we probably won't even find out about for another few years; if that.

I would also submit that you have never, ever on this board, provided a shred of evidence for your assertions as to the brilliance of Fianna Fáil. In other words, you're most likely a typical card-carrying Fianna Fáil member - you haven't a bulls notion what you're talking about.

That's not to say I'm a whizkid at politics - I'm certainly not - but at least I'm willing to /attempt/ to provide evidence for my arguments.

Mods, that isn't a flame, it's the truth. Mod me if you wish, I'll stand by it.

adam

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
I think that the FG manifesto did make some mighty big promises. Compensating Eircom shareholders and Taxi men to name a couple.

The FF manifesto was very restrained in comparisson.

Promises win votes. The FG manifesto contained some crazy ones

Yes - but promises also lose votes. If, for arguments sake, I was tempted by Fine Gael's policy in general, their blatantly "buy a vote" approach to refunding Eircom shareholders would have made me choose to not vote for them. The same, to a lesser extent, would hold true for my reaction to the compensation of taxi drivers.

I am not getting into a discussion of the rights and wrongs of such promises. We've had those discussions, and there is no "right" answer. I'm not reploughing that ground. All I am saying is that the making of such (in my eyes) idiotic promises would be enough to convince me to not vote for a party.

The FF manifesto, rightly or wrongly, was very restrained because - in their projected opinion - no radical changes were/are needed, and they are progressing nicely along their long term plans.

The lack (or presence) of radicalism in policy is not, in and of itself, a good or a bad thing. It is the need for such radicalism, and (perhaps more importantly) the perception of that need.

I would agree with Adam that " Irish politics as a whole is a sham and a disgrace". Then again - in a democracy the people get the government they deserve. Its as much a reflection on the nation as it is on the politicians. However, blaming any one party is facetious in the extreme, regardless of whether they are a bit-player or major name.

Originally posted by dahamsta
Mods, that isn't a flame, it's the truth. Mod me if you wish, I'll stand by it.[/B]

I'm happy enough to let it stand for now. However - I'm asking all parties to keep it no less civil than that last post.

jc

Elmo

The eircom scheme that FG wanted to set up through the PAYE system was a vote pulling gesture on their behave we all know that and we all know that FG this election continued on their Holy then art thou campaign againist FF which people look at a took a pinch of salt and said to themselfs

1. If i had bet money on a horse would i lose all my money yet Eircom share holders at least get back some of their money.

2. Micheal Lowery???????????


Noone ever said that FF are better then FG, FF are better at playing the political game then FG are and that is a fact show by the dreadful General Election Campaign and proven by the results.

I don't think Irish politics is a shame the only sham I see is the next Nice Treaty Ref. which would be taken by any party of any kind wether it be FF or FG.

I would like to see a Centre Left government in power maybe not consisting of either FF or FG.

All the parties need to sit down for the next election a point out exactly what they want for and from Ireland in the future and if something radical needs to be done have the guts to do it.

By the way I dont think that we have a centre Right government in power as i feel FF are just playing a good political game by having the PD's on their side.

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Originally posted by Elmo
By the way I dont think that we have a centre Right government in power as i feel FF are just playing a good political game by having the PD's on their side.

Emmm....Pardon!?
I cant say I agree with that. This govt is right of centre without doubt. (A fact I personally am pleased with might I add).

I mean Charlie McCreavy might as well join the PD's because they couldn't have had it anymore their own way during the last govt. in terms of finance policy. Also if one was to look at the newly appointed cabinet, the only member I can see as being clearly left of centre is Eamon O'Cuiv ("DeV. óg"- which is understanable of course)

Additionally, FF sit with the Gaullist's and Forza Italia in the Euro Parliament among many other centre right parties in the Union for Europe grouping (I think its called that!?)...further credence to their centre-right credentials

dahamsta

i feel FF are just playing a good political game

Indeed they are. But it's not a game. It's never a game. That's why the children in Fianna Fáil get no respect from me. When they stop playing games with people's lives, I might change my mind.

adam

Cork

When they stop playing games with people's lives

What games are they playing.

FG promised compansating taxi men & Eircom shareholders.

Labour promised more public holidays.

FF delivered on giving decent increases to the old. The raindow coalition gave scrooge like increaes to the old.

They increased spending on health, police and education.

It might be a game to you. It effects the quality of peoples lives. FF have done a decent job. They tranformed the tax system by bringing in tax credits by putting equity into it.

FF have more to delivered. They've delivered alot.

Shazbat

"FF have more to delivered. They've delivered alot"

I agree with that, they have given us long hospital waiting lists, high inflation rates, and outrageous house prices.

I really can't wait to see what else they are going to give us!!

A contagious disease maybe?

In fairness, they have given out good things too, namely a load of cushy jobs to their pals.

God they're great!

Cork

The government has delivered on jobs. People do not have to travel anymore just to find a job. They have delivered the Good Friday agreement. Gone are those days that bombing & shootings dominated our TV news.

It Carlsberg made governments – I am sure people would still find fault. It think it has to do with a “pinko liberal philosophy”.


Should the government are to go around telling people, how much they are to pay for houses? The government is building more local authority houses now than many previous governments. They have forced private developers to make social housing available. It is people who are bidding up the price of housing and these people will suffer when house prices drop.

Waiting lists. These are getting shorter. One has to remember that we have a pretty good health service. Knocking it with a few sound bytes acts as a dis service to those working in it. The health budget has more than doubled in the last 5 years.

I think the majority of people recognised that this government is doing a good job. Hence their return to government. Both FG & Labour had a disastrous election. The government is doing a fairly good job. It needs to do more in the areas of health & housing.

As JFK said “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country”.
FF has delivered on substantial tax reductions. It has delivered on large increases in Children’s allowance & old age pensions. What increase did the last FG/socialist government give the OAPs? £1.75p?

Shazbat

FG and Labour did badly in the polls while FF gained but there is nothing to be proud about in being the best of a bad lot.
I accept the fact that FF are possibly the best party to be in government but it doesn't mean that i have to extol their virtues and be blind to their many shortcomings.

It seems FF can do nothing wrong in alot of peoples eyes. What party couldn't deliver when the country was awash with millions upon millions of pounds worth of EU grants. Any fool can do well we'll see what peoples opinion of them is when they raise taxes in the next budget, this coupled with the ongoing job losses might provoke a less than positive response from the electorate.

They may be the best party to be in government but they are a bunch of back-slapping shysters and everybody knows this.

FF did the bare minimum for the Good Friday Agreement they didn't put themselves out in any way they just more or less drifted along nudged gently by english goverments. It was the SDLP and Sinn Fein who truly made things happen and to a lesser extent David Trimble and Tony Blair, FF rank at the bottom with their contribution.

As Billy Connolly once said we shouldn't vote for politicians because it only encourages them this is especially true of FF.

Elmo

Labour did quiet well this election so much so that FG were afraid to go into the next dail without a leader as a candidate for Taoiseach.

Albert Renolds and the Labour Government were the people who set the whole peace process along.

I dont think I would give an award to David Trimble for Peace, Personal i think the unionist continue to give out about everything. He did do half as much as the SDLP leader, hume, who had being fighting for the rights of catholics since the sixtys.

Cork

What party couldn't deliver when the country was awash with millions upon millions of pounds worth of EU grants. Any fool can do well we'll see what peoples opinion of them is when they raise taxes in the next budget, this coupled with the ongoing job losses might provoke a less than positive response from the electorate.

?

FG & Labour doubled the national debt in the 1980s from £12 billion to £24 billion.

They did not deliver anyhing expect high taxes, hign spending & dispair.[

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
FG & Labour doubled the national debt in the 1980s from £12 billion to £24 billion.

On the back of a Charlie Haughey, vote-grabbing budget, where car tax was reduced to £5/year, among other things.

Deathtobertie

FG & Labour doubled the national debt in the 1980s from £12 billion to £24 billion.

Eh? Who mentioned the eighties?? Nothing was good then, not music, clothes, haircuts or the Irish economy. I'm surprised you didn't drag the civil war into it too. Lets talk about the last five or six years!

Why not talk about the 1 billion folly that Bertie is hell bent on building? Is he beginning to show signs of megalomania or what? Maybe we should build great temples filled with golden idols in his likeness too. Maybe with the catholic church in crisis we could all turn to worshipping Bertie instead, as far as I can see some people are doing that already. We love the leader... we love the leader...

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
It think it has to do with a “pinko liberal philosophy”.

Think that says it all really.

Waiting lists. These are getting shorter. One has to remember that we have a pretty good health service. Knocking it with a few sound bytes acts as a dis service to those working in it. The health budget has more than doubled in the last 5 years.

We have some pretty good health workers. I'm living with one. That doesn't mean we have a good health service. In fact, Anne would say that we have a pretty crappy health service (and she should be in a position to judge), and before you accuse her of being a pinko liberal, she voted for FF in the last election.

As JFK said “Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country”.

Complain. Tell them where they're doing wrong. Shout loudly when doubling a health budget has still left people (people, not health boards) in hospitals in a position where they have to hire private nurses to make sure that their parents and grandparents receive the care they need.

FF has delivered on substantial tax reductions.

Not going to comment on that as I still believe most governments over the past thirty years have taken the completely wrong view of when and how to make tax cuts.

bonkey

Originally posted by Deathtobertie
Eh? Who mentioned the eighties?? Nothing was good then, not music, clothes, haircuts or the Irish economy. I'm surprised you didn't drag the civil war into it too. Lets talk about the last five or six years!

Because anyone who believes that the state of the union today can be attributed to "the last five or six years" clearly doesnt understand the fundamentals of economics when taken at a national scale.

jc

Deathtobertie

Because anyone who believes that the state of the union today can be attributed to "the last five or six years" clearly doesnt understand the fundamentals of economics when taken at a national scale.

Hmmm interesting, by that statement we can deduce that FF cannot take credit for the up-until-recently thriving ecomony? I think there are some people who would disagree with that (personally I wouldn't).

Labour/FG were blamed for doubling the national debt, which was in turned blamed on Charlie haughey's FF.

So all these people are (and have been) running our country cannot be held accountable for their bad policies in your opinion?

I think that the past five or six years are exceptions to any rules of economics that would have applied in this country before. It is a very different economy than the way it was twenty years ago. How can you compare an eighties economy where there was very little money to the mid - late nineties where there was a hell of alot floating around? Fundamentals in general are basic similarities, but things that are fundamentally the same can be extremely different due to various other non-fundamental factors, in this case vast sums of money.

The 'Fundamentals of economics when taken on a national scale' is a very ambigous statement and could be taken a number of ways and doesn't really refute or dispute anything, its more or less a meaningless soundbite.

Liars can be 'Fundamentally' telling the truth

bonkey

Originally posted by Deathtobertie
So all these people are (and have been) running our country cannot be held accountable for their bad policies in your opinion?

Of course they can be held accountable for bad policies. I never claimed otherwise. What I pointed out is that you cannot set convenient timeframes across the board.

Several people have complained about the state of our healthcare, and have blamed FF for it. Well, hang on. When FF came into power, what state was healthcare in? How much money have they spent on improving it? Were they to spend more, where would this money come from, and what could it be spent on?

All of these questions are relevant to how good or bad a job FF has done with our healthcare. Taking the current state of healthcare without these questions is meaningless.

The more you look at issues in this light, the more you see that it is not the current level, nor the degree of change which is truly indicative. Each case needs to be looked at in terms of its history, its particular problems and peculiarities, all taking into account the rate at which change can be realistically effected.

When someone presents an argument which is based around "limit yourself to the last 5 or 6 years please", they are either deliberately skewing the argument in favour of their position, or are showing a basic lack of undersanding of the issues.

jc