What's the next step?

212.2.179.66

We have seen the old Min go out with her tail between her legs. So who is the New Min and have IOFFL made any contact with him/her in regards to ADSL or the state / lack of it / price of it in Ireland? I know everyone might say well give this or give that a chance the elections just over. But I always say strike while the Irons still hot. Every pressure should be brought upon the new Min to realise exactly what the situitation in regards to the Internet connectivity and the cost of it in Ireland really is.... sorry for being blind but i have seen nothing about it soo far.


212.2.179.66

J@ck Chri5tie

They were on Vincent Browne the other day.

Mary Haniffin the Gov Chief Whip with special responability in this area sounded clueless when discussion came round to ICT.

The Minister for Communications Dermot Ahern didn't sound much better but was aware that broadband rollout is way behind most of Europe.

JC

Dustaz

you have to allow these things time. Ireland Offline are NOT a huge corporation who have a lot of clout in political circles and therefore cannot just snap the fingers and demand an audience with the government.

If you look back at the progress made over the past year, youll realise that without a doubt, Ioffl will meet with these people in due course and say what needs to be said. Just give it a bit of time:)

212.2.179.66

Originally posted by Dustaz
you have to allow these things time. Ireland Offline are NOT a huge corporation who have a lot of clout in political circles and therefore cannot just snap the fingers and demand an audience with the government.

If you look back at the progress made over the past year, youll realise that without a doubt, Ioffl will meet with these people in due course and say what needs to be said. Just give it a bit of time:)

I have done, and I have not seen any worthwhile changes? No offence but nothing has changed. From looking back all I can see is a lot of shhhhhhhhhuuuuuuuuuuuusssssssh! Things are going on in the background and be patient. If we spent all the £ / € that was wasted on everyone being patient for the last 2 years on building IOFFL into a formidable threat to Eircon with the £ /€ to back it. That would have been something. But as it stands I can honestly see no difference whatsoever. If I sound insulting or whatever, I really dont mean too. IOFFL is a non profit, non funded oranisation. Which leaves the 'Well im only doing this in my Spare Time' 'What do you expect.... were just volenteers?' and many more comments, easy to use. Upon reading back on the IOFFL Blackout it showed a 'Pithyfull' turnout of supporters. Only the hardned supporters turned out and that was shamefull!
Every organisation Gardai / Army etc. has some sorth of represention (Funded Represation) to support it and fight its case. So am I right in thinking that the only reason IOFFL are not funded by now is becaouse they want to use the option.... 'We are Volenteers' and can back out anytime? Where as if they were funded they would actually have to answer to someone and get results? No offence to IOFFL I can see all the work that's been done. But it's not enough. Time and time again ye have been fobbed off with promises of this n that, but what's changed?
Nothing!

212.2.179.66

MDR

212.2.179.66

I have worked in groups such as Ireland Offline before, I am no great lobbiest or campaigner, but when I do join a movement I do my best to support it, and that means sometimes you go through long periods of drought.

Now I have no problem with constructive critisism, in fact as Dannger will probabily tell you I supplied more than my fair share in recent history. You haven't supplied constructive critisism, you have said 'your doing it all wrong, I could do it much better', or at least thats how I perceive it. Arguements such as this, do no good, effect no change and only serve to demotivate peeps.

You argue that IrelandOffline has had no success, well let me clearily lay your arguements to rest, IOFFL enjoys both the respect of Industry and Government. Something not easily attained, was there not members of the Dail Eireann speaking on our behalf during the reading of the communications bill ? Not to mention the respect of journalists amount the Irish Business media, who regularily write articles on our behalf. If you want solid tangable results, yes ok they may be thin on the ground to date but our campaign is starting to have results at the highest level.

Now, if you really want to help, stop the critisising, put your money back in your pocket, drop Dannger a line offering your services in whatever capacity you are needed.

MrPudding

Well said MDR

You cannot change these things overnight. We need to raise the profile of the campaign and alert the average man and woman in the street to what is wrong and why it doesn't have to be that way. This takes a lot of time and effort which is often without thanks or recognition, as you have shown 212.2.179.66.

In the words of the great Bertie "a lot done, a lot more to do!"

Keep up the good work.

MrE

Dangger

To be honest, I would like to see a lot more action too! But as has been pointed out, we have gained respect and raised profile while at the same time maintaining relationships with the parties involved.

The members individual actions will continue to play an important role in the future of IOFFL, and we need your input, assistance and ideas.

dahamsta

I shouldn't really need to echo Dave's comments, but I will, because it's important:

IrelandOffline has come a long way since its inception, it has gained recognition as the de facto representative organisation for Irish Internet users who feel they are suffering at the hands of an anti-competitive Internet marketplace, and I think the fact that IO is consulted before the IIA and other similar organisations these days speaks volumes about how far we've come, especially when you consider that our so-called "competitors" are invariably funded, subscription-based entities; while of course IO remains a voluntary, non-funded organisation. (That's not an excuse, it's just realism -- we have to be realistic and understand our limitations.)

However, it is precisely because of that recognition, and also because the people who run IrelandOffline - including the invaluable workhorses in the Working Groups - are already overstretched with committments outside of IO, that it's now more important than ever that our members get behind us and help push us to ever-higher peaks. Much as I dislike echoing the Taoiseach's bye-line, even via MrEnvy, we have got a lot done, but unfortunately there is a hell of a lot more to do, as the recent, bizarre press release from the ODTR has demonstrated.

We've achieved one goal - broadband is out there, even if it is limited and disgustingly expensive - but our main goal of flat-rate Internet access has yet to be realised, and it's pretty much been left to us to kick some b-o-t-t-y to get it out there. There's no way in hell we'll be able to do it on our own, we need your help to do it. We're not asking for miracles, we're not even asking for your time if you can't afford it, we're just asking you to think. Because in all honesty, that's what we do most of the time. We think about how to tackle things, we think about how to approach things. The more people we have thinking, the better off we'll be. But think Good Thoughts, eh?

adam

212.2.179.66

WHOA! Why do ye take any sorth of comment that has not got the words 'Well Done IOFFL ye are really great!' as a personel insult? I made some very valid points that were just ignored. To summise what i was actually saying was IOFFL has done a lot of work, there is no doubt in that. But all IOFFL are getting at the moment is lip-service from all involved. It is ok to be friends with everyone but sometimes friends have to decide ok enough of going along with everyone else and Stand Up and be noticed. Hey I promise that ADSL @ €50 will be available to every household by 12 July 2002.... yeah right! Wake up ye lot and stop being so agreeable! Pussy-footing around everything wont get anyone anywhere. At least try doing another 'Blackout' and try to get more supporters. A lot of people here have suggested some really good things to do and raised some very good points. But from what im reading and seeing is they just dont have the support they expected when they came to this place so they just leave.

212.2.179.66

MDR

Why do ye take any sorth of comment that has not got the words 'Well Done IOFFL ye are really great!' as a personel insult?

As I said, I have no problem with constructive critisism, can I quote ex-Major of New York Rudi Guiliani, 'Point out solutions not problems'. We are all aware of the issues you pointed out, Dannger said

To be honest, I would like to see a lot more action too!

I said,

If you want solid tangable results, yes ok they may be thin on the ground to date but our campaign is starting to have results at the highest level.

There was one or two suggestions you did make,

At least try doing another 'Blackout' and try to get more supporters

This is sort of May Day Protest Type Tactics, we tried before and it didn't work. There are too many people out there using the web in Ireland to get motivated, also we may actual end up pissing off the very businesses we need on our side in the fight. We have no issue with some of the Other Licensed Operators, so what to we gain by damaging their buinesses, except to lose them as allies.

Another suggestion was,

So am I right in thinking that the only reason IOFFL are not funded by now is because they want to use the option.... 'We are Volenteers' and can back out anytime? Where as if they were funded they would actually have to answer to someone and get results?

I hope you recognise that a statement like this could very easily cause offence, I don't even like quoting in my post. Dannger and the other member of the board/research/lobbying group, I am sure would love to be funded, but whereas I think the membership with be inclined to attend a fundraiser in aid IOFFL every so often, I don't think we could realistically raise sufficent funding to actively fund some of the activites we engage in. This is no bad reflection upon our Zealous membership, without whom there would be no IOFFL, its just a statement of practicality.

Also, I get the feeling that the only reason you want IOFFL funded is so you can more easily hold it to account ? I don't see any issues with accountablity at the moment, if I had issue with anything IOFFL have done or haven't done, I usually point it out on the boards or drop someone a mail. There are more tactful ways of doing things, that dropping the type of post we way above.

But from what im reading and seeing is they just dont have the support they expected when they came to this place so they just leave.

This is a very valid point, and one I raised quite recentily. I am at the moment am taking steps to retify this, watch this space. Also I will need help with it, if you would be in a position to give me some help I would be very grateful.

MarkR

I'd have to agree with MDR, it's all very well well saying what's wrong, it's a lot harder to come up with viable solutions! I do understand 212.2.179.66's frustration, little seems to have happened recently in the telecommuncations areane, but when you are dealing with large companies things take a great deal of time. I'm sure constructive ideas would be welcome though. I've had a couple myself!

I spotted the links to lodge complaints with eircom etc about their pricing policies/misleading ads etc, what about a form letter that could be downloaded from the site and posted to your local government, or eircom. In bulk if possible for better effect! Say every friday morning Bertie and the customer service department receive 1000 letters askig for action? Not as bad as a DOS attack, but effective and legal. I've just bought a new box of envelopes, some paperm and stamps, so i'm already! A sack full of letters is a whole lot harder to ignore than a full inbox.

Also, someone had mentioned the banners for eircom that have been appearing ovearhead. I was wondering (and this is reaching a bit i suppose) if it was possible for IO to have some banners. I have no idea about cost, but with a few donations and some well placed banners on popular irish site you might get a fair bit of notice.

Another idea that just occured to me was the matter of funding. Some sites i've seen take paypal as a method of donations, while other sites like mijag.com have set up bank accounts that supporters can send money to if they like. Every little bit helps!

Help from the inside as well would be a great asset, people who work in telecommunications who could advise of whats happening on the insode, hopefully without breaching their confidentiality clause!

Anyway, enough of my ramblings for now, one last question.

What can a normal joe do to help anyway?

Mark

212.2.179.66

Originally posted by MDR


As I said, I have no problem with constructive critisism, can I quote ex-Major of New York Rudi Guiliani, 'Point out solutions not problems'. We are all aware of the issues you pointed out, Dannger said

Ok whats the point of having IOFF if we can all point out whats wrong and sorth it by ourselves? What your saying is form a commitee / elect people.... but sorth out the problems yourselves?


I said,



There was one or two suggestions you did make,



This is sort of May Day Protest Type Tactics, we tried before and it didn't work. There are too many people out there using the web in Ireland to get motivated, also we may actual end up pissing off the very businesses we need on our side in the fight. We have no issue with some of the Other Licensed Operators, so what to we gain by damaging their buinesses, except to lose them as allies.

Hang on! What are you saying here? 'WE' are what keep buisnesses ALIVE! so why be scared of them? Take US away and there is no buisness! Think about it!.

Another suggestion was,



I hope you recognise that a statement like this could very easily cause offence, I don't even like quoting in my post. Dannger and the other member of the board/research/lobbying group, I am sure would love to be funded, but whereas I think the membership with be inclined to attend a fundraiser in aid IOFFL every so often, I don't think we could realistically raise sufficent funding to actively fund some of the activites we engage in. This is no bad reflection upon our Zealous membership, without whom there would be no IOFFL, its just a statement of practicality.

Actually it is a reflection on IOFFL. No offence but if IOFFL was any good you would not have to ask for sponsership people would just donate whatever they could to keep IOFFL alive and working for them. (truth)

Also, I get the feeling that the only reason you want IOFFL funded is so you can more easily hold it to account ? I don't see any issues with accountablity at the moment, if I had issue with anything IOFFL have done or haven't done, I usually point it out on the boards or drop someone a mail. There are more tactful ways of doing things, that dropping the type of post we way above.

I have never been one to beat around a bush. It takes too long.
Your reply is one i would expect from a polition. It won't work on me.


This is a very valid point, and one I raised quite recentily. I am at the moment am taking steps to retify this, watch this space. Also I will need help with it, if you would be in a position to give me some help I would be very grateful.

I have seen several peopel trying to help so far and i do not want to become one of them... i call them Victoms.
Sorry for being so harsh....but im seeing things from Outside Boards.IE and im saying things that maby i should not say...but its whats being said by a LOT of people....

212.2.179.66

212.2.179.66

Originally posted by MDR

This is a very valid point, and one I raised quite recentily. I am at the moment am taking steps to retify this, watch this space. Also I will need help with it, if you would be in a position to give me some help I would be very grateful.

Ray a few of us have offered help, background information and suggestions in the past. But the reception we got was really bad. You can be assured it 'won't' happen again. Totally no offence to you. I did not beleive all of what was said to have happened on these boards until Dustaz pointed out a few things and it made me read back on loads of threads. I will point out a fact though. You have a huge amount of people that are hideing in the background becaouse of a lot of things that were said and done on these boards. They wont come forward.... unless a lot of things change. From what i can see IOFFL have about 11 maby 1,300 supporters. I know for a FACT! that over 11,000 or more people read these boards or have the imformation thats posted here passed to them. Ask yourself why they are staying away?

212.2.179.66

Dustaz

this is all very very familiar.
IP, youve made your point, and not entirely on deaf ears. Dont queer your pitch now.
I will lock and delete this thread the instant it turns into a repeat of the things weve seen in the past.

MDR

I spotted the links to lodge complaints with eircom etc about their pricing policies/misleading ads etc, what about a form letter that could be downloaded from the site and posted to your local government, or eircom. In bulk if possible for better effect! Say every friday morning Bertie and the customer service department receive 1000 letters askig for action? Not as bad as a DOS attack, but effective and legal. I've just bought a new box of envelopes, some paperm and stamps, so i'm already! A sack full of letters is a whole lot harder to ignore than a full inbox.

Have you watched Shawshank Redemption recentily ? although I do take your point. What myself and dannger (yes indeed I met the great man, despite rumours to the contrary he is not 10 feet tall and can't wrestle a minister to the ground single-handed ... ), were thinking something along the lines of a simple yet comprehensive FAQ section, starting off with a quick explaination of who we are, then explaining what the issues are, then explaining what the hurdles we have indenitfied in achieving our objectives and then finally what YOU can do about it. Possibly with the type of material we saw during the electio, the ADSL pricing campaign etc... I have advocated that if we enable memebers with enough information they will help us emensily. I think alot of memebers are aprehensive about throwing there hat into the ring, because past the fact they know they are paying way over the odds for net access, they aren't really sure about anything else.

If we inform people at grass roots level (hello William Hague ?), we enable them with information they need to join the fight on our side, we can onily benefit in the long term.

MarkR

Did they have email in the shawshank redemption? ;-) I was actually thinking back to during the election when i got undeliverable reports from a few candidates, only got a reply from one. Some of these peope are not very net savvy i suppose.

I'd imagine that most of the pricing issues would be pretty easily accessed, a mail sent to the customer service department of a few of the major isps explaining that we are looking for prices for a comparison (thought the higher priced ones may not want to participate)

If no one else has done it I can give it a go myself.

Mark

MDR

Did they have email in the shawshank redemption? ;-) I was actually thinking back to during the election when i got undeliverable reports from a few candidates, only got a reply from one. Some of these peope are not very net savvy i suppose.

Thats odd, I got a reply from all of mine. Ok in fairness it didn't take some of them a loooonnnnnngggg time to get back to me but they all eventually did.

I'd imagine that most of the pricing issues would be pretty easily accessed, a mail sent to the customer service department of a few of the major isps explaining that we are looking for prices for a comparison (thought the higher priced ones may not want to participate)

I am not sure what you are getting at ? Ok you mail the ISP's, get all there pricing schemes ok, so what do you do with this new information you have obtained ?

MarkR

I thought it might be useful information for a faq, highlighting the differences in pricing/services available in Ireland compared to other countries. Maybe not though. What would be useful in your opinion (you being around this forum a whole lot more than I!)

Mark

MDR

It was not my intention to be dis-respectful, I didn't understand what you where driving at, I agree that we should probabily list the complete pricing schemes for internet access from all companies telecom or otherwise on the website, it would help people to choose the best deal on offering, encouraging competion.

I don't know how the committee would view this, as they would be worried about offending the Other Licensed Operators, but I think you are right, we should be providing this type of information.

So I say, yeah i think its a great idea and the information obtained would be really useful, make sure however that your information is comprehensive.

MarkR

No disrespect taken! I'll draft up an message and then find maybe the top ten european isp's. Maybe one from new zealand as well, I think someone said that nz had a similar population density, so it may be more relevant than a more heavily populated countries. Iwas just thinking there that those uk internet mags are always publishing price comparions for various isp's, so I'll have to check those, if just for the names. PC Live is an Irish computing magazine, think i'll mail them and see if they've done any research...

Anyone have any other ideas of who to contact?

Mark

Btw, that sig, I am the death of laughter? Or did i get that wrong?

dahamsta

Guys, you might want to tie up with Fergus <fergus AT irelandoffline DOT org> and the Research Working Group on this. They already have a substantial block of information on access charges, although it may well be related to DSL and not flat-rate. I'm sure they'd welcome your help, and I'm absolutely certain that a resource like this, with a full-time manager, would be absolutely invaluable to IrelandOffline.

adam

MDR

I'll draft up an message and then find maybe the top ten european isp's

I think you should also list the top Irish ISP's just to clarify the difference.

Anyone have any other ideas of who to contact?

Try the European Competitive Telecommunications Association (ECTA) they have all kinds of useful data concerning telecoms of in Europe, and I am sure they would be will to help us.

Btw, that sig, I am the death of laughter? Or did i get that wrong?

Nope, I am dead from laughing, is a more accurate translation

MarkR

Great stuff, i'll follow up as much as i can.

stormkeeper

Also, someone had mentioned the banners for eircom that have been appearing ovearhead. I was wondering (and this is reaching a bit i suppose) if it was possible for IO to have some banners. I have no idea about cost, but with a few donations and some well placed banners on popular irish site you might get a fair bit of notice.

Even though my site isn't really widely known... I'd be more than willing to put up an IOFFL banner (if guys you decide to make one) up on my website

timod

There are IOFFL banners around somewhere. Used to be at http://www.irelandoffline.com/img/ but gone now. (I guess while Adam is playing with the site)

212.2.179.66

Originally posted by Dustaz
this is all very very familiar.
IP, youve made your point, and not entirely on deaf ears. Dont queer your pitch now.
I will lock and delete this thread the instant it turns into a repeat of the things weve seen in the past.

I'm not sure what your trying to imply Dustaz. But your a Mod i respect that. But i have to say i hate being threatoned in that sorth of mannor. You oboviosly read what you wantd into my post and dealt with it accordingly. In case you don't know it pays to have an open mind and not just use it as a One Way Street. However i respect what i think you ment. Point taken.

212.2.179.66

dahamsta

http://irelandoffline.org/link.htm

[BTW, I know a few of those banners were contributed, so if you created one of them and you would like a credit, just let me know.]

adam