Sack McCarthy-conclusive reasons as to why

hand_of_god

We need to lose this LOSER now!!
Look at the amount of blunders this yorkshire puddin' has made in just 4 weeks.
1.Dropping Steve Finnan in the first game(& yes he was fit)
2.Playing Ian Harte for 4 games when obviously his confidence was shot after 2 games + he was not a 100% fit.
3.Insisting on playing Duff up front when all his best work is on the wing (well the embecile must have agreed as he ended up there in the 2nd half of 3 games)
4.Playing a totally ineffective G.Kelly on the wing instead of Reid.
5.Bringing on Connolly instead of Morrison in spanish game.
6.Insisting that K Kilbane can do as good a job as Duff on the left wing(WHAT???).
7.Sending our best player home….another spectacular piece of McCarthy mis management.
8.Sub-standard training facilities in Saipan (He chose them not the FAI) so the buck stops with him
9.Encouraging the team to go on piss throughout the whole tournament. http://www.setanta.com/soccer/story.jsp?story=WCContent;id-41983

Look at the guys training methods for christ sake - sessions consist of Gaelic football, piggy back races, outfield players taking turns in goal wouldn't be suprised if three legged and egg & spoon races were also on the agenda.
What a friggin' GOON'
Also look at crap that comes otta the useless ****'s gob 'I tell ya what if Spain beat us they'll win the tournament' (right the Spanish are a team of bottling big-time charlies ).
Building Cameroon (a team of premiership rejects) & Germany (the worst germany side in the history) up to be world beaters.
He even had the gall to suggest the Saudi's (probably the worst ever team to qualify for the world cup)were dangerous.
Why does he always downplay our chances?
In order to lower the country's expectations so if we manage a win(highly unlikely with him in charge), a draw(probable) Mick's the saviour but if we lose 'ah sure it 'twas to be expected' - a win/win situation for him.
Also all this talk of him being a tactical genius because of the substitutions he made - aint it obvious he got the starting XI WRONG on 4 occasions - if u look at his substitutions Gary Kelly was taken off in 3 games & Harte in 4 now that suggests they shouldn't of been playing in the first place & as for Kilbane - a public lynching would be too good for him considering his crimes against football.
Look at his negative tactics the only time he has the courage to go for games is when we go a goal down - look at Senegal & the USA (teams of lesser ability than us)they play to win not draw and end result they're in the last 8.
Funny thing is if we had our best starting XI(including Roy Keane) on the pitch and a competent and able manager during this campaign we could have won the bloody thing!
How can we ever succeed when the manager will not play his strongest starting XI instead his whole management style is based on a policy of nepotism - i.e Kilbane/G Kelly/Harte starting.....Carsley and Kennedy ahead of Reid & Healy for the original 23 man squad ....the one thing about a good manager is that he has to be objective in his decisions....McCarthy is obviously lacking in this department as well as many others i.e man management skills, tactical awarness etc.
These are blunders he's made in the last 4 weeks if we are to go back over his previous managerial mistakes the list is endless just think of…..telling denis Irwin…a guy who has won everything in the game…to “prove himself” at the age of 33…playing Irwin at center half…..playing keane sweeper…..playing Harte center half……….. Iceland/Lithuania at home, Macedonia away twice, Amsterdam after going 2-0 up ...his substitutions once again resulted in us snatching a draw from the jaws of victory!!
Not to mention both home legs of the Play offs against Turkey and Belgium.I could go on all day….the list is endless.
His qualification record is 1 out of 3 in major championships and to me this is not good enough.
Time to give someone else a go for the good of Irish Football.
If he does go on to manage a club side in England I have every confidence he will be a universal..........FAILURE.
Lets lose the Dead Wood .........and sack the Yorkshire Puddin.
McCarthy Out!!!!!!!!!!

Clintons Cat

playing outfield players in goal was one of the reasons roy keane gave for falling out with mccarthy.Propheticaly one of the brazilian players (edmundo was it,hmm yes) injured himself and put himself out of the tournament whilst playing a warm up game in goal.

Biffa Bacon

Brilliant post. Agree totally. Also don't forget that he said practising penalties was "garbage".

Dustaz

utter nonsense most of that post. Eamonn Dunphy would be proud of it.
I was going to quote most of it to refute some of the points, but theres just so much, i really CBA. Theres some reasonable arguments there, which have been/will be discussed to death but asserting that the only training done out there was 'Gaelic football, piggy back races, outfield players taking turns in goal wouldn't be suprised if three legged and egg & spoon races were also on the agenda'. You were there hand of god? this is the only training they did? shut up.

Why do posts like this always end up with rubbish like this:

Funny thing is if we had our best starting XI(including Roy Keane) on the pitch and a competent and able manager during this campaign we could have won the bloody thing!

How the **** do you know this? are you psychic? No, your a ****ing moron with an axe to grind who cant give any credit at all. Did it occur to you that holland might not have been playing if Keane was still there? there goes our goal against cameroon so.

His qualification record is 1 out of 3 in major championships and to me this is not good enough

oh fcuk off. Before jack charlton we had NEVER qualified for a major championship. Jack qualified us for three playing the WORST type of football imaginable. Move to england if you want to be guarenteed entry to major championships.

He didnt build cameroon up to be world beaters. It was keane sympathisers who did most of the moaning about that (see Eamo again). Remember that Cameroon were african champions, they really were very disapointing.
Do you think Roger Lemmerre is a shìt manager? His team lost 3 times and didnt score a goal against shìt opposition.

Keeks

Originally posted by Dustaz
How the **** do you know this? are you psychic? No, your a ****ing moron with an axe to grind who cant give any credit at all. Did it occur to you that holland might not have been playing if Keane was still there? there goes our goal against cameroon so.

But the question is Would Cameroon have scored first if Keane was there? The coin flips both ways.

Anyway I can't really respect a manger who thinks throwing away a 2 goal lead is a great result.

Hairy Homer

Ok. that’s the case against McCarthy. Now the case for.

1 He inherited an aging team from the most successful manager in its history and has never finished worse than second in qualifying for any competition entered.

2 The players individually are less gifted than many earlier Irish teams and their achievements are as great or greater. EG for the 1982 World Cup we had a team that included at various times Brady, O’Leary, Lawrenson, Stapleton, Whelan, Daly and Heighway. With the exception of Duff, and on a good day Robbie Keane, none of this squad match up to that. And that team couldn’t qualify, though it nearly did in a true group of death.

Similarly in 1990 we had McGrath, Sheedy, Houghton, Aldridge, a young Niall Quinn and Townsend. Much better players…

3..but the quality of football was crap. Got the highlights tape of Italia 90? What’s on it? Happy clappy fans. The players and the pope. Endless reruns of Quinn’s goal against Holland – probably the worst goal in Irish history aesthetically. Packie Bonner grimacing. A penalty shoot out, for Christ’s sake. Lots of players hugging each other.

Everything in fact except good football. A point made at the time by one Eamon Dunphy who said that anyone who sent the team out to play like that should be ashamed of themselves. Which led to him becoming the most vilified man in the country.

Why? Because he missed the point. In 1990, the main thing was we were there and we weren’t humiliated. We weren’t expected to win the thing or dazzle the world with our skills. We held our own against some of the best. And that was enough for a debutant.

By 1994, that approach had palled. One great win against Italy apart, the performances were dull and unconvincing. A point reflected in the relatively poor turn out for that year’s Phoenix Park shindig.

Fast forward to 2002 and there are a host of images to remember. Matt Holland’s goal against Cameroon. Keane hitting the post. Keane’s equaliser against Germany (I never get tired of watching that). Duff dribbling past everybody in all games. The relentless attacks against Germany and Spain when it mattered.

It was a great team effort, if not a great team. And at least we always knew that.

4 He has managed to withstand the loss of our best player and come within a penalty shootout of the quarters – an achievement identical to Charlton to be objective about it. Regardless of whose fault you think the Roy Keane saga’s to be—and it’s by no means an open and shut case—preparing to do without him was essential as he could well have been missing for some of the tournament anyway owing to a) injury caused by his abrasive style or b) suspension for the same reason.

5 McCarthy managed to organise a team of big hearted battlers topped off by a pair of promising strikers to remain unbeaten in a world cup full of upsets and to play good football while doing it.

6 All this cock about playing up the opposition so that we look great when we only draw with them is the product of short memories. Would you prefer a manager who proclaims that we are going to win the World Cup with a squad such as ours? After all, NONE of our players played in the Champions’ League?

Two words. Ally McLeod.

And if some of our younger readers say Ally who? he was the Scottish manager who reckoned that Scotland were certain to get to the semifinals at the very least of the 1978 World Cup and ‘God willing’ might actually win it.

The Scots are still trying to live that down 24 years later. Especially as they have NEVER made it out of the group stages.

6 McCarthy has been much more proactive about bringing on young players than Charlton ever was. Kids that McCarthy pushed into the team include Harte, Breen, Duff, Kilbane, Healy, etc etc

Charlton’s approach was to look at a promising uncapped player and then ask him whether he had an Irish granny. Which of course ALL English people have.

‘You’ll never beat the Irish!’

‘We’ll never play the Irish, mate’

Especially in Charlton’s day.

7 McCarthy manages a team that gave me hours of enjoyment, days of conversation and untold amounts of pride. Here’s to him getting to Portugal in 2004.

dougal

You can't sack a manager just cos you don't agree with his decisions! If you carried on like that no-one would ever take the job unless they were garanteed to win every game!!!

You can sack a manager if he fails to deliver results.

McCarthy (while I agree that he has faults and lots of them) can't be sacked for taking the team to the world last 16 unbeaten in the competition bar 1 meaningless goal in Iran.

We have a team that was good enough to win the world cup and didn't. The only people that seem to disagree with this know nothing about football. But we arent the only country with a team good enough to win it and who are home already - at least we did our best and you can second guess all you want but we did play well.

WhiteWashMan

Originally posted by hand_of_god
We need to lose this LOSER now!!
Look at the amount of blunders this yorkshire puddin' has made in just 4 weeks.
1.Dropping Steve Finnan in the first game(& yes he was fit)
2.Playing Ian Harte for 4 games when obviously his confidence was shot after 2 games + he was not a 100% fit.
3.Insisting on playing Duff up front when all his best work is on the wing (well the embecile must have agreed as he ended up there in the 2nd half of 3 games)
4.Playing a totally ineffective G.Kelly on the wing instead of Reid.
5.Bringing on Connolly instead of Morrison in spanish game.
6.Insisting that K Kilbane can do as good a job as Duff on the left wing(WHAT???).
7.Sending our best player home….another spectacular piece of McCarthy mis management.
8.Sub-standard training facilities in Saipan (He chose them not the FAI) so the buck stops with him
9.Encouraging the team to go on piss throughout the whole tournament. http://www.setanta.com/soccer/story.jsp?story=WCContent;id-41983

Look at the guys training methods for christ sake - sessions consist of Gaelic football, piggy back races, outfield players taking turns in goal wouldn't be suprised if three legged and egg & spoon races were also on the agenda.
What a friggin' GOON'
Also look at crap that comes otta the useless ****'s gob 'I tell ya what if Spain beat us they'll win the tournament' (right the Spanish are a team of bottling big-time charlies ).
Building Cameroon (a team of premiership rejects) & Germany (the worst germany side in the history) up to be world beaters.
He even had the gall to suggest the Saudi's (probably the worst ever team to qualify for the world cup)were dangerous.
Why does he always downplay our chances?
In order to lower the country's expectations so if we manage a win(highly unlikely with him in charge), a draw(probable) Mick's the saviour but if we lose 'ah sure it 'twas to be expected' - a win/win situation for him.
Also all this talk of him being a tactical genius because of the substitutions he made - aint it obvious he got the starting XI WRONG on 4 occasions - if u look at his substitutions Gary Kelly was taken off in 3 games & Harte in 4 now that suggests they shouldn't of been playing in the first place & as for Kilbane - a public lynching would be too good for him considering his crimes against football.
Look at his negative tactics the only time he has the courage to go for games is when we go a goal down - look at Senegal & the USA (teams of lesser ability than us)they play to win not draw and end result they're in the last 8.
Funny thing is if we had our best starting XI(including Roy Keane) on the pitch and a competent and able manager during this campaign we could have won the bloody thing!
How can we ever succeed when the manager will not play his strongest starting XI instead his whole management style is based on a policy of nepotism - i.e Kilbane/G Kelly/Harte starting.....Carsley and Kennedy ahead of Reid & Healy for the original 23 man squad ....the one thing about a good manager is that he has to be objective in his decisions....McCarthy is obviously lacking in this department as well as many others i.e man management skills, tactical awarness etc.
These are blunders he's made in the last 4 weeks if we are to go back over his previous managerial mistakes the list is endless just think of…..telling denis Irwin…a guy who has won everything in the game…to “prove himself” at the age of 33…playing Irwin at center half…..playing keane sweeper…..playing Harte center half……….. Iceland/Lithuania at home, Macedonia away twice, Amsterdam after going 2-0 up ...his substitutions once again resulted in us snatching a draw from the jaws of victory!!
Not to mention both home legs of the Play offs against Turkey and Belgium.I could go on all day….the list is endless.
His qualification record is 1 out of 3 in major championships and to me this is not good enough.
Time to give someone else a go for the good of Irish Football.
If he does go on to manage a club side in England I have every confidence he will be a universal..........FAILURE.
Lets lose the Dead Wood .........and sack the Yorkshire Puddin.
McCarthy Out!!!!!!!!!!

of course, now that niall quinn has retired, looks like we'll have to play that sweet football instead of route 1 rubbish.
so, how are we going to win now oh master of tactics?

Lemming

MAJOR SARCASM ALERT

Reasons why mcCarthy should be sacked:

1.) He got a bunch of capable, yet not necessarily amazing players, playing as a team. And a rather effective one at that.

2.) He doesn't harp on about how good the team is and how we were gonna trash the opposition. "Humility", to use a word.

3.)He got rid of an exceptional, yet total prima-donna player who was crushing the morale of the team.

4.) He got us within a hairs-breadth of the Quarter-Finals

cournioni

Originally posted by Lemming

3.)He got rid of an exceptional, yet total prima-donna player who was crushing the morale of the team.

I totally disagree with that comment. Do you not remember several players most notably Niall Quinn and Gary Breen saying they wanted him back? Now why would they want him back if he was "crushing their morale"?

Secondly I totally agree with the hand of god's post.

And it was Emerson (Roma) the Brazil captain that got injured and had to go home. So how the **** was Roy Keane supposed to feel about the Outfield players playing in goals?!

BKtje

Mick has made a laod of mistakes and i was with the crowd calling for his sacking after the world cup but now....

He got Ireland to the last 16 of the world and shoulda been the Quarter Finals. He and the team played attaractive football and made me proud. Sure he made mistakes but its a learning experience for him too. It was his first major tournament.

He made some dodgy subs , but the team still made it and the end result is the main thing if you ask me.

Get results with good football. What more do we want ffs.

Dustaz

Originally posted by B-K-DzR

Get results with good football. What more do we want ffs.

The impossible, seemingly

TBH Hairy Homer just owned this thread. Jesus, youd swear we failed to qualify by being beaten by lithuania for gods sake.

Sand

The impossible, seemingly

A blind chimpanzee could see Duff (and thus Ireland) played better when he was on the wing (even the right wing to accomadate the midfield maestro Kilbane). McCarthy couldnt see this. This despite the fact that Duff made his reputation this season as a winger.

A blind chimpanzee could see that Harte simply wasnt playing well in the tournament - debate the reasons all day long but he just wasnt delivering the goods. McCarthy couldnt see this.

People harp on about McCarthys team not being as good as Charltons, so anything (*whatsoever*) he accomplishes is thus wonderful - McCarthys got Given, Finnan ( Carr also, pity theyre the same position), Duff, Keano (Well used to, brilliant man management Mick), Robbie Keane ( Had a bad season at leeds but a good tournament, well on his way to smashing the goal record for Ireland) , and quite a few useful if not exceptional players. Its not like Charlton had the 1970 Brazil team playing for him. Terry Phelan?

The football we played whilst better than the Italia 90 showing wont exactly be replayed around the world to show off the wonderful Irish passing, creative style - I personally had my head in my hands for most of the tournament as I watched Ireland mess up passes, play each other into trouble and generally struggle for ideas against less than formidable opponents - until of course McCarthy rectified his piss poor selections and tactics at half time, what a tactical masterstroke he played *every* game without carrying that on to next games selection.

This is the same manager whose got a panache for playing wingers as strikers, midfielders as center backs, and full backs as center backs, full backs as wingers, playing formations we just dont have the players for......its hardly surprising hes been practicing with playing outfield players in goal.

Its not impossible to hope for a manager to at least avoid the obvious mistakes that anyone can see. Perhaps we might try looking above the lower reaches of England's division one for managers.

Results are great- 3 draws and a win, hurrah! Charlton got results by playing crap football. Great. Id prefer to see Ireland getting results and playing good football. At least then if we lose we can say we played well and can have no regrets. But there a hell of a lot of regrets about this tournament, mostly down to McCarthy and his decisions, and his failure to learn from his mistakes. Im proud of the Irish players in that they overcame so many obstacles - both those of the teams they played and the those presented by McCarthys choices. Im extremely dissapointed though - we could have done so much better.

sceptre

Nice post Hairy Homer.

Saved for the next time someone sends me a "why mccarthy is soooo crap" email

BKtje

What people are getting at is, what might of been if we had xy and z playing from the start. There is no guarantee that we woulda done much or any better. Mick knew how his players were playing (yes we all know harte played ****e and im sure he does too which is why he subbed him every game. but maybe he felt any one else at left back would be worse?)

There are too many what if's and maybe's and if onlys.
We just dont really know how it would of gone otherwise?
ffs we might never have pushed the germans back if he didnt have super subs to come on and push the team on after Germany get their sense of security or whatever.

Maybe Duff was played upfront as Quinn was only useful as a target man later on in the games. WHo else would he have brought on? Sure we had Conolly (we all know how ****e he really is) and Morrison. (A hope for the future but inexperienced at this level atm)

The football we played whilst better than the Italia 90 showing wont exactly be replayed around the world to show off the wonderful Irish passing, creative style

Of course it wont but we aint exactly a world class side full of flair and creativity. The lads played very well and together made up mroe than the sum of their parts.

Only thing that i have to add is,
Bring back Keano.

bucks73

Bring back Keano.

Hear hear.

While McCarthy might feel comfortable in his position at the moment, if there are a couple of dodgy results at the start of the Euro qualifiers the calls for Keano to return will grow.

Will McCarthy bow to pressure or even better get lost?

Greenbean

Will Keane be brought back in again to make Ireland qualify and then removed when it comes to the competition?

cournioni

Originally posted by Greenbean
Will Keane be brought back in again to make Ireland qualify and then removed when it comes to the competition?

I somehow doubt that, unless there was another bust up in the camp. He's just too important for Ireland to leave out for things he has done in the past. Hopefully all will be forgotten by then.

bucks73

Surely McCarthy realises that Ireland could have done better with Keane around and that there is a real chance to do well in Euro 2004.

If he doesnt he really is ignorant.

cournioni

Originally posted by bucks73
Surely McCarthy realises that Ireland could have done better with Keane around and that there is a real chance to do well in Euro 2004.

If he doesnt he really is ignorant.

Yup... not only that but he would be selfish and childish aswell for not apologising and also for keeping him out of the squad for his own personal reasons. A few of the players have already said that they would love to have him back in the squad.

bucks73

I hope for the players and supporters sake that Keane is asked back and everything else that has gone on is forgotten about.

Johnny_the_fox

To be honest, I don't think Ireland should call Roy Keane back.... He was the one that walked out on the team, firstly for personal reasons, and then fell out with Mick. He also called the team useless or something like that...

FFS Keane went to Brazil with the scum (Man U), and played in a stupid tournament... all his is interested now I think is money….

We have loads of great young footballers coming into the team now...

Its time to move on...

Please remember that Mick went through the qualifiers with a sick father, and stayed with the team when his father died... do u not think Mick had Personal issues during that time??

Mick has become a better manager, lets hope he stays for a long time....

scuzzy

So if McCarthy goes, who's going to replace him?

And

A blind chimpanzee could see

That's impossible...:rolleyes:

NeRb666

bah it's all very well saying this a week later from your computer, it's over, move on.

Bard

Originally posted by Johnny_the_fox
[Roy Keane] also called the team useless or something like that...

Eh no, he called Mick McCarthy a useless c*nt. Allegedly.

Its time to move on...

"It's time to move on"??? That has to be the most over used line of bullsh*t I've seen. WHY? Why should we move on if that means not having our BEST EVER player???

Mick has become a better manager, lets hope he stays for a long time....

Well he's staying for another 2 years until Euro'04 at LEAST.

vorbis

i agree, a manager should try to put out his strongest team. As for a new manager, why not Don Kinnear? He did a magnificent job at keeping Wimbledon in the Premiership. What ifs are always pointless, but it galls me to see a German team, we could have beaten, cruise to the final. It could have been us !!

bonkey

Every single person who has been levelling their criticism of McCarthy's team choices are forgetting something :

He was there. You werent.

McCarthy and his trainers were there for every training session of his squad. You werent.

He saw who gelled together, and who didnt. You didnt.

He saw who he felt fitted into which roles. You didnt.

He was selected for the job as the most qualified available person at the time. You werent.

And yet, when games dont go the way we want them to go, what is the outcome? Blame the manager. Every single armchair critic knows (by some divine intervention, obviously) what the line-up should have been, without seeing the training, the teamwork, or (at a guess) studying the opposition who would be likely to lineup against the opposition.

I also note that the critics never speak out about our lineups before a match - telling us in adcance who is a duff player. No - they wait till afterwards so they can be aided by hindsight.

This post-loss call for a manager's sacking sickens me. No-one asked for McCarthy to be sacked when we qualified, despite him making similar choices. No-one asked for him to be sacked when we qualified from the group stages, despite many of the decisions being complained about already having been made.

Yet, when his decisions in ONE MATCH fail to win the game, we get reasons spanning from the entire tournament as to why he should be fired.

Pathetic.

You want credibility - next time explain before the match why the lineup is wrong, and why the choices made were wrong. Then see how accurate your predictions are. Once you've done that publically for a number of matches, compare your predictions with the results McCarthy achieves, and see who is making better averages.

As for the whole "outfield in goal" thing. If, in one game, in one tournament, once during his managership, McCarthy is forced through circumstance to put an outfield player in goal, people will sing his praises from the rafters if that outfielder has had some experience in goal. Also, if you used your heads a tiny bit, you would also realise that being in goal gives you a very good perspective on how keepers behave, and thus, how to beat them more easily.

But no - because Keano or someone bitched about it, everyone is willing to jump on the anti-bandwagon and say how bad it is.

I wonder if you'd be comdemning Charlton for his world cup track-record if you knew that he had used the exact same tactic as part of his training regime.

Originally posted by Bard
Why should we move on if that means not having our BEST EVER player???

I would have said that Paul McGrath (aka God) was by far the best player ever to don the Irish shirt.

Regardless of that, the best team and the best player are not mutually inclusive.

jc

Johnny_the_fox

superb bonkey........


but i think Ronnie Whelan was God, Jesus Christ and the Holy spirit in an Ireland shirt

bugler

Hmm, what a thread. Suffice to say most of it consists of begrudging half-wits whose expertise (if they have any) lie not in the realm of football. Anyway, just as a matter of interest, will those of you convinced he is completely crap have the balls to come out and say how Ireland will do in the Euro 2004 qualifiers? Come on, I want a few of you to back up your beliefs by giving me some nice negative predictions, then I can bookmark these page, and we can drag it back up down the line to see how you did?

I'm unsure myself. He has undoubtedly made mistakes along the way, but he seems to have learnt. And if he can continue to learn from this WC experience (ie perhaps duff on the wing, loyalty is not always the best policy) then I think we can be positive. All in all, we have a squad that did well in the world cup, like their manager, and most seem to want him to stay, they are on a relative high, and have gone up in the worlds estimation (read the british press). Sack him? Quiet, you clueless goons. If anything, this thread stands as testament to trait of begrudgery being an inherent part of the Irish psyche. I dismissed it as being ridiculous for a long time, but now realise that it can surface with a vengeance. There will always be people who get off on slagging off those getting praise in the mainstream.

As a sidenote, who, pray tell, would you geniuses replace him with?

vorbis

he was there for every session ??
what manager isn't? Its his job.

Throughout the competition, McCarthy kept picking and substituting the same players e.g. Harte.

Everyone makes mistakes but to keep repeating them is a bad trait.

As for most qualified at the time he wasn't. He was manager of Millwall while Don Kinnear was manager of Wimbledon.

bugler

I presume by "Don Kinnear", you mean Joe Kinnear. Not only are you trying to make a píss weak point (that the irishman/semi-irishman at the highest ranking club should get the job), but you also show exactly how much you know about football. That's right, diddly shít. I don't talk about knitting, because I know nothing about it. It's a pity many members of boards.ie don't have the grace to take the same approach.

Sand

Bugler I dont know what club you support. But lets take a wander to see how far your admiration for McCarthy goes ....

The manager of your club has a heart attack or something and is forced to retire. A certain son of Barnsley is appointed. Are you delighted that youve laid hands on one of the best managers in Europe? UK & Ireland even?

What would you tell a confused Real Madrid fan (for example) about McCarthy should he ask you..."so who is this McCarthy and what has he accomplished? What will he do for my club?"

Re: Bonkey

Complaints about and dislike of McCarthy goes all the way back to the days of 3-5-2 and Roy Keane as a center back - if we develop a quality central defender hell probably play him in goal.

Same for Harte and Kilbane and Duff being played out of position....after game one many people were in favour of switching things to a better way ( kilbane off, duff wing, Harte replaced by Kelly or even Kilbane, and giving Morrison a go up front - who was promising in the pre cup friendlies). McCarthy persisted where anyone else- even his fans, would have shaken things up.

Look at it this way....would you prefer Guus Hiddink or McCarthy to manage Ireland? The guys worked wonders for South Korea with a far less skilled squad.....and if hed work with South Korea hed have worked for Ireland as well. Just an example of quality managers that can be found....if you look outside of English Division one.

bugler

Re: McCarthy's accomplishments, was mixing it with Portugal and Holland (and shafting the latter) not good enough? And let's not forget that Ireland were very unlucky in their group versus Yugoslavia and Croatia, who at the time were very capable teams. Considering Ireland lost their best player in such demoralising (you would think) fashion, and the fact that the team does contain many journeymen pros (I don't like the term, and it may not even be accurate, but compared to other countries, some of the Irish players look decidedly second rate), Ireland's results in this world cup were very good. We were the better side in the games against Germany and Cameroon. Germany, as they have continued to do, rode their luck against us, and got away with it. Cameroon are african champions, but did have a somewhat lacklustre tournament.We could have even turned over Spain had we got a break. The record shows that McCarthy's side is very hard to beat, and over the last few years have performed excellently against the top sides we've come up against. Those of you against McCarthy cannot argue with this, it's a fact. His 'mistakes' and his persistency in showing loyalty to other players is also a fact, and hopefully he can learn from it, if he does, look out Russia, Switzerland and Georgia.

if hed work with South Korea hed have worked for Ireland as well.

You. Don't. Know. This.

Not to mention the fact that it isn't just a matter of offering the job to a top level coach and wahey, he jumps at the chance. W have a good coach, who has brought us good results. Getting rid of him would be the worst possible reaction.

Sand

, was mixing it with Portugal and Holland (and shafting the latter) not good enough? And let's not forget that Ireland were very unlucky in their group versus Yugoslavia and Croatia, who at the time were very capable teams.

No, its not. It might be good enough to just qualify for Poland or Tunisia or whatever. Thats grand for them. Anyone looking at the groups prior to McCarthys assassination of his teams chances would consider a semi final place far from impossible for Ireland in this years tournament, and in fact it turned out to be even easier in reality - Win a group of Cameroon, Germany and Saudia Arabia - beat South Africa, beat the USA, into the semi with South Korea.... Final? Crazy maybe but are any of those teams better than Ireland? You say yourself we were better than Germany and Cameroon (We were when McCarthy did his usual half time substitutions, first half both of those teams were thrashing us with the first McCarthy XI) but yet were on the plane home and Germany are in the semis.....Good ol McCarthy.

and the fact that the team does contain many journeymen pros

Yeah and McCarthy continues to play them, instead of allowing either better players take over- or even letting promising young players make a name for themselves.

The record shows that McCarthy's side is very hard to beat, and over the last few years have performed excellently against the top sides we've come up against.

His team also finds it very hard to win against the top sides or even the middling sides.

You. Don't. Know. This.

Manage Ireland (some very good players), close to holland (home for Hiddink) or travel half way across the world to manage a team of unknowns. Youre right, its very 50-50.

Not to mention the fact that it isn't just a matter of offering the job to a top level coach and wahey, he jumps at the chance. W have a good coach, who has brought us good results. Getting rid of him would be the worst possible reaction.

Hiddinks an example of whats out there. Youre right, its not a case of asking and theyll automatically say yes. But if you dont ask youll never know and well be stuck with failed division one managers for all eternity.

As it is well have to listen to McCarty building up Russia and Switzerland (those international football powerhouses) into world beaters, to his fans dismiss our players as eejits lucky to have such a good manager so when we win the group (If we dont win it will be crinimal) it will be an incredible achievement and a wonderful endorsement of McCarthys policy of playing Duff as a center half.

Pigman

Originally posted by Sand



As it is well have to listen to McCarty building up Russia and Switzerland (those international football powerhouses) into world beaters, to his fans dismiss our players as eejits lucky to have such a good manager so when we win the group (If we dont win it will be crinimal) it will be an incredible achievement and a wonderful endorsement of McCarthys policy of playing Duff as a center half.

INCREDIBLY Ireland have managed to come second in every single one of their qualifying groups on the last seven occasions spanning back 14 years (surely a record?) . Who's to say we won't **** it up again and end up being runners-up to Switzerland or one of the other 'superpowers' in our group?

bonkey

Originally posted by Sand
Complaints about and dislike of McCarthy goes all the way back to

Who the hell cares how far back it goes? There were plenty of people in Ireland who disliked pretty much every single thing Charlton did. Hell - the only time I can remember Dunphy actually approved of something Charlton did was when we lost the game.

Approval or disapproval is useless after the fact. I'd really love to see one of the team critics here wait til our next international run, and then go through the whole process. Criticise the squad choices. Then criticise the team choice for a match. Tell us in advance who shouldnt be where, and why. Tell us who was a good choice. Then after the match, see how well your predictions match up.

Same for Harte and Kilbane and Duff being played out of position....after game one many people were in favour of switching things to a better way ( kilbane off, duff wing, Harte replaced by Kelly or even Kilbane, and giving Morrison a go up front - who was promising in the pre cup friendlies). McCarthy persisted where anyone else- even his fans, would have shaken things up.

Right, sure. Explain one thing to me then. Should Jack Charlton have been fired for his continued insistence to play John Aldridge up front, despite Aldridge proving himself pretty much incapable of scoring a goal in an international match. Alrdidge was a terrifying waste of space, based on his international performances. Were you calling for Charlton's dismissal at the time, or was that different somehow?

No manager makes team calls which are universally popular. What I find interesting is that Charlton's World Cup success was hailed massively, whereas McCarthy's is being lambasted. What was the difference? Well, in one we lost the penalty shoot-out, and in the other, we won it. That is the sum total of the difference, and yet one man was a hero and the other is currently being villified.

Look at it this way....would you prefer Guus Hiddink or McCarthy to manage Ireland? The guys worked wonders for South Korea with a far less skilled squad

Sure, but you have exactly 0% chance of assurance that he would be successful with the Irish players. Ever wonder why soccer teams change players more often than managers? Because you dont just look to "trade up" a manager, mostly due to the "fitting in" period they undergo with a new team being far longer than it is for a player.

.....and if hed work with South Korea hed have worked for Ireland as well.

Uh-huh. If we could have afforded him, then quite probably. However, would you have fired McCarthy when Hiddink came on the market, or are you just saying that we should try poach him now and fire McCarthy in the process?

Hey - when Alex Ferguson retires from Man U or some other top-ranker comes free, maybe we should try head-hunting him and firing Hiddink.

Thats definitely the way to go. You're right. We should trade up whenever possible.

Only I'm pretty sure you'll tell me that this isnt what you meant.

Besides, personally I'm of the opinion that if the world cup requires players to have a national affiliation, it should require the same of the managers, trainers, and the rest of the "main" squad of personnel.

jc

Pigman

Originally posted by bonkey


Right, sure. Explain one thing to me then. Should Jack Charlton have been fired for his continued insistence to play John Aldridge up front, despite Aldridge proving himself pretty much incapable of scoring a goal in an international match. Alrdidge was a terrifying waste of space, based on his international performances. Were you calling for Charlton's dismissal at the time, or was that different somehow?

I think those comments show you have a complete lack of understanding towards the role Aldridge played for the Ireland team under Charlton. Charltons game was all about kicking the ball as close to the corner flag as you can get it, forcing the opposition defence to back-foot it in their own penalty box and making our strike pair act as the first line of defence whilst the midfield pushed forward. This in turn meant that Aldo (or whoever was playing the role) was never going to get as many goals as they would under normal circumstances.

At the time Aldo was one of the most deadly and feared strikers in England and had we played to suit his game he would have easily smashed the Irish goalscoring record. The fact that he sucked it up and took on the unglamourous role that Charlton asked him to do shows that not only was he a striker whose goalscoring abilities should not be questioned but that he was also model professional.

Dustaz

Originally posted by Sand


Complaints about and dislike of McCarthy goes all the way back to the days of 3-5-2 and Roy Keane as a center back - if we develop a quality central defender hell probably play him in goal.

Yes fire McCarthy because he insists on playing a 3-5-2 formation. God, it knocked us out of the world cup like.

Sand, i dont know if you like football or not, but if you do and you had bothered to watch the games over the last few years, you may well have noticed that McCarthy learns from his mistakes. We now play 4-4-2 for the most part and he doesnt play keane in defense.

Same for Harte and Kilbane and Duff being played out of position....after game one many people were in favour of switching things to a better way ( kilbane off, duff wing, Harte replaced by Kelly or even Kilbane, and giving Morrison a go up front - who was promising in the pre cup friendlies). McCarthy persisted where anyone else- even his fans, would have shaken things up.

Harte wasnt played out of postion. neither was kilbane. What are you babbling about? You hippocrite, Your moaning about duff being played out of position, but your quite happy to put a midfielder in defense or a right sided player onto the left side.

Oh and sand, i hate to break this to you, but S Africa didnt qualify for the second round.

bugler

Unfortunately, Sand has an extreme case of the 'could-haves', and is insisting on arguing from a hypothetical fairy land. We are a very small country. Relatively new to football. Some people can't be pleased, can they? Is a country of 3.5 million people (and its UK diaspora) supposed to be beating the established footballing powers on a regular basis, Sand? You are quite demanding.

And regarding my point on the some of the Irish players being journeyman-like, who do you think they were and who would you have replaced them with? I'm looking forward to the reply.

No-one has stood up and given me a prediction for how we'll do in the qualifiers either. Come on, if he's so bad some of you must think we're going to do crap. Tell us how we'll do.

Pigman

Originally posted by bugler

No-one has stood up and given me a prediction for how we'll do in the qualifiers either. Come on, if he's so bad some of you must think we're going to do crap. Tell us how we'll do.

We'll come second as usual of course. It's not in the Irish mentality to believe we might actually win something. :mad:

BKtje

tbh id be surprised if we dont top our group.

Dustaz

Russia will be a tough proposition. They are notoriously hard to beat in moscow and should travel well. They had a poor showing in the world cup, but then so did france.
We have a decent chance to top the group, but i wouldnt fall over in shock if we came second to them.

bonkey

Originally posted by Pigman
At the time Aldo was one of the most deadly and feared strikers in England and had we played to suit his game he would have easily smashed the Irish goalscoring record. The fact that he sucked it up and took on the unglamourous role that Charlton asked him to do shows that not only was he a striker whose goalscoring abilities should not be questioned but that he was also model professional.

IT also shows that Charlton was, by you exact admission, playing him in a role to which he was not particularly suited. WHich is pretty much the same as playing him out of position...which is what you're complaining about McCarthy doing.

I would further point out that Aldridge managed to go some ridiculous number of internationals before finally finding his first goal - which was handed to him by Ronnie Whelan passing up an empty goal to allow Aldo to finally break his duck. Funny that - all the other strikers were able to bang in a goal every now and then for Ireland. Aldo, on the other hand, couldnt.

So, either he was not suited to the role Charlton wanted to play him in, the style Charlton wanted him to play, or his international form was completely different to his league form.

In any case, there were other forwards on our squad far more capable at scoring than Aldo, but he was still first choice.

This is still exactly the same type of "poor manager decision" that you're lambasting McCarthy for. I notice though that you defended Aldridge - not Charlton. You still havent answered the question : Charlton was clearly playing Aldo in a role to which he was not suited. He was a striker who couldnt strike. Were you calling for Charlton's dismissal for his continued insistence in playing Aldo? If not, then why is McCarthy such a blithering idiot for playing people in a role to which they are not (in your eminent opinion) suited.

jc

Pigman

Originally posted by bonkey


IT also shows that Charlton was, by you exact admission, playing him in a role to which he was not particularly suited. WHich is pretty much the same as playing him out of position...which is what you're complaining about McCarthy doing.

I would further point out that Aldridge managed to go some ridiculous number of internationals before finally finding his first goal - which was handed to him by Ronnie Whelan passing up an empty goal to allow Aldo to finally break his duck. Funny that - all the other strikers were able to bang in a goal every now and then for Ireland. Aldo, on the other hand, couldnt.

So, either he was not suited to the role Charlton wanted to play him in, the style Charlton wanted him to play, or his international form was completely different to his league form.

In any case, there were other forwards on our squad far more capable at scoring than Aldo, but he was still first choice.

This is still exactly the same type of "poor manager decision" that you're lambasting McCarthy for. I notice though that you defended Aldridge - not Charlton. You still havent answered the question : Charlton was clearly playing Aldo in a role to which he was not suited. He was a striker who couldnt strike. Were you calling for Charlton's dismissal for his continued insistence in playing Aldo? If not, then why is McCarthy such a blithering idiot for playing people in a role to which they are not (in your eminent opinion) suited.

jc

I was honestly hoping that your just a troll writing here on behalf of the Anti-Aldo group but now I just think that you're really just misinformed about the issue.

Here's a few things for you to take on board

1. Asking a player to play out of position is not the same as asking them to play a different role within the same position so please don't put words into my mouth. Alridge always played as a striker under Charlton and performed the role that was expected of him, hense he was continually picked for the team. If you think all a striker is meant to do is score goals then I think your knowledge of football tactics stopped sometime around the final of the 1930 world cup.

2. Firstly I wasn't complaining about McCarthy picking players out of position so I don't know where you got that from?

3. John Aldridge is currently ranked 3rd in Ireland's ALL-TIME scoring league with 19 goals and actually has a higher goal per game average than the two players above him so your comment of 'other strikers were able to bang in a goal every now and then for Ireland. Aldo, on the other hand, couldnt.' is totally worthless.

4. Aldridge went about 18 games until he scored his first international goal which makes the fact that he made it to 3rd place in the all time rankings all the more impressive. I'd rather a player like that than some David Connolly or David Kelly who sets the world on fire in their first two matchs and then doesn't do jack for the rest of their international career.

5. Charlton plays Charltons style. He doesn't (nor should he) play in order to suit an individuals sytle. A manager who lets 11 players go at it exactly as their club does is asking to lose games. Plus I don't need to defend Jack because his results speak for themselves. His inclusion of Aldridge was always correct because Aldo was the striker in our squad who did the job the best. If he didn't then David Kelly or some other player would have got the job. Charlton has made plenty of errors in his time but nabbing Aldo and playing him was not one of them.

Sand

Who the hell cares how far back it goes? There were plenty of people in Ireland who disliked pretty much every single thing Charlton did. Hell - the only time I can remember Dunphy actually approved of something Charlton did was when we lost the game.

You did...apparently. You claimed/implied that people suddenly jumped up with a dislike of McCarthy after we lost on penalties to Spain. Ive thought he was an eejit (based on decisions mentioned) for as long as hes managed Ireland. Im not entirely alone either.

Only I'm pretty sure you'll tell me that this isnt what you meant.

So your writing of it was a waste of your time, and my reading it was a waste of mine. Oh well.

Besides, personally I'm of the opinion that if the world cup requires players to have a national affiliation, it should require the same of the managers, trainers, and the rest of the "main" squad of personnel.

I wouldnt agree...players sure - thats a given to a large extent, management doesnt have to be. Charlton wasnt Irish. Some of our best players were/are English born. Sven isnt english but has done a good job for England, should they have got a less qualified coach with an English accent instead? Should we only advertise for a job for managers who are Irish, or of Irish descent? Should this be announced so any good non-Irish manager know theyre not welcome or should we just pretend were only interested in their qualifications? Im pretty sure thats against EU discrimination policies.

Sand, i dont know if you like football or not, but if you do and you had bothered to watch the games over the last few years, you may well have noticed that McCarthy learns from his mistakes. We now play 4-4-2 for the most part and he doesnt play keane in defense.

Yeah, McCarthy just keeps on learning from his old ones (after a long bloody time), and then making a whole new set of mistakes ....maybe around 2013 hell actually have got to the phase where hes half decent.

Harte wasnt played out of postion. neither was kilbane. What are you babbling about?

Oh great, English 101 time. Granted, I didnt make it blindingly obvious for those affected by short term memory loss but by "Harte and Kilbane" I was referring to the players not being up to the task in their respective positions ( a common theme throughout the thread ). I then put an "and" to signify another point...."and Duff being played out of position". If I had meant all three were out of position Id have said (assuming English of course) "Harte, Kilbane and Duff out of position".

And regarding my point on the some of the Irish players being journeyman-like, who do you think they were and who would you have replaced them with? I'm looking forward to the reply.

Lets see, I would have got Roy Keane into central midfield (Oh I forgot Im meant to be assuming Im Mick McCarthy who cant man manage), Would have played Duff at left midfield, Given Clinton Morrison a go up front ( He played well in friendlies, with service from an in-form Duff who knows), I honestly would have let Harte play for the first game, but assuming he played like he did against Cameroon Id have dropped him in favour of just about anybody (Yes even a Left sided defensive midfielder or a right sided full back Dustaz, Harte was that brutal). I would have brought the likes of Healy instead of Carsley - given him a go as well, again he was promising in friendlies, Reid deserved more of a chance to show what he can do. I would have thought Finnan was an obvious starter before Kelly for right back, just based on season form.

We are a very small country. Relatively new to football. Some people can't be pleased, can they? Is a country of 3.5 million people (and its UK diaspora) supposed to be beating the established footballing powers on a regular basis, Sand? You are quite demanding.

Youre right of course. Were Irish. Were only in it for the laugh and the heroic defeats. Seems you and Keano agree on something.

Russia will be a tough proposition. They are notoriously hard to beat in moscow and should travel well. They had a poor showing in the world cup, but then so did france.

Its started already. In the warm aftermath of the Spanish defeat/draw we were going to do well in 2004. Now well have our work cut out getting there.

vorbis

what an appalling suggestion. Pick the manager doing the best in cluc football!! aka Don Kinnear at the time. Scotland would be mad to pick Alex Ferguson as manager. As for blunders, McCarthy's ones have been pretty much documented.

For Euro 2004, I'd say we'll finish second to Russia. Without Keane, the team will literally freeze in Moscow.

Dustaz

Sand, sorry if i picked you up wrong, this isnt humanities.

Originally posted by Sand
Its started already. In the warm aftermath of the Spanish defeat/draw we were going to do well in 2004. Now well have our work cut out getting there.

Rubbish.
Plenty of people were talking about booking holidays in portugal in 2004. These are the same ignorant sheep that were saying 'Ireland are the best ever' on RTE news after the saudi match.
We WILL have our work cut out getting there. If you think we dont, then you just a moron and i suggest you watch some more tapes of italy, france and spain getting knocked out by 'weaker' opposition.
Sand, some of the points you made about playing players are the points that would occur to most football fans (including myself). Heres the crux though. Your a football fan, your not a manager, your not in japan, you dont deal with these players, you have (im reasonably sure and again, like myself) very little idea on what goes on in a world cup training camp. Dont pretend to know any better than a man who steered a team to the last 16 in a world cup because you dont. End of story.

tHE vAGGABOND

Scotland would be mad to pick Alex Ferguson as manager

1986 world cup....

Pigman

Originally posted by tHE vAGGABOND
1986 world cup....

That pretty much proves the point. But then again this is scotland we're talking about! Bill Shankley could have managed them and even he wouldn't have got em past the first round.

Rufus T Firefly

Pigman said:
"I think those comments show you have a complete lack of understanding towards the role Aldridge played for the Ireland team under Charlton. Charltons game was all about kicking the ball as close to the corner flag as you can get it, forcing the opposition defence to back-foot it in their own penalty box and making our strike pair act as the first line of defence whilst the midfield pushed forward. This in turn meant that Aldo (or whoever was playing the role) was never going to get as many goals as they would under normal circumstances.

At the time Aldo was one of the most deadly and feared strikers in England and had we played to suit his game he would have easily smashed the Irish goalscoring record. The fact that he sucked it up and took on the unglamourous role that Charlton asked him to do shows that not only was he a striker whose goalscoring abilities should not be questioned but that he was also model professional."

Well I seem to have a different recollection of what happened with Aldridge. He was an out-an-out striker - a goal snuffler - who's job it was to tuck away the scraps that the forward line tended to feed upon. Fact is, he couldn't score for love or money in an Ireland shirt. His normal predatory instincts seemed to desert him. Jack stuck by him. Not mind, acknowledged his role as a very good defender, but simply kept faith in his ability to adapt and come good eventually. And he did.

People wonder blather on "he played so-and-so out of position"; "he played wotsisname when he was out-of-form" and wonder why McCarthy can't see what's so obvious to their keen footballing brain and vast tactical nous.

I think there are a few things to bear in mind. 1. If you listened to the armchair experts, you'd drop half the team after each game. 2. There isn't an endless pool of talent and is the next choice any better. 3. Most importantly, players appreciate faith in them. If McCarthy did as every gobsh!te with a keyboard asked him to, he'd ruin the confidence of talented players.

So he's a pr!ck for sticking by players? I mean Ferguson wouldn't do it would he? Who said "Veron"?

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by Pigman


3. John Aldridge is currently ranked 3rd in Ireland's ALL-TIME scoring league with 19 goals and actually has a higher goal per game average than the two players above him

4. Aldridge went about 18 games until he scored his first international goal which makes the fact that he made it to 3rd place in the all time rankings all the more impressive.

Here's one for you: what was the best team that Aldridge scored against while playing for Ireland? And how many of his goals were from open play ie not penalties?

I honestly don't know the answers to these. I know he scored quite a few pens. And my impression was that he dipped his bread a lot against crap teams. (Turkey - when they were crap) Tunisia, Malta etc etc. but rarely scored against the big boys.

The only half-way decent side I remember him scoring against was Mexico in USA 94.

But then a lot of it had to do with the way Charlton made him play. Chase chase and chase again. In his latter years he was terrible. So old and slow that he had to hang offside all day in order to try and get a chance against the defence.

To my mind, there are two three-word phrases I will always associate with the commentator George Hamilton

1) Oh danger here

and

2) Offside against Aldridge.

He had to say both of them a lot.