Will eircom ever do flat rate?

The Gopher

Has eircom any plans in the future to introduce flat rate access?Its scandalous that we must be the only country in europe without a comonly available flat rate provider,since IOL doesnt take new customers.I blame privatisation-if the gov had kept telecom eireann they could launch flatrate easily-if it wasnt making a profit the gov could prop it up until it did.So,any plans?And dont savage me if ive said something retarded among irelandoffliners-im a newbie here:)

Also does Esat still do flat rate?If they do can you keep eircom for the homephone and esat for the net?Cheers[and again,no attacking;) ]

BoneCollector

Will eircom ever do flat rate?

yes!
When hell freeze`s over!

Tellox

Eircom keep fobbing us off, telling us "the market isnt ready for flat-rate, and we will keep our eyes on it".. And we have one Mary O'Rourke to thank for leaving the flat-rate ammendment out of the comms bill.

Cork

LLU has been a disappointment
Communications bill seems not to have delivered.

When they come around canvassing for NICE. Have a few hard questions ready.
We need to keep the issue on the agenda.

Tellox

Cork, it never works, I remember having a nice long conversation with an Eircom rep trying to get me to switch back my phone lines from ntl.

After I asked her was she having a laugh, I told her that their internet is too expensive, and is the worst I've ever heard of, when you bring out a flat-rate product, or introduce broadband down here, you can sign my up as a customer. she then took a breath and the second I heard the letters "I.S." I told her Im not interested in paying twice what im paying now for a still-slow internet, and reminded them it wasnt broadband nor flat-rate, so I wasnt interested.

She then went on to tell me about I-Stream, and I explained how it's not going to be availble here for at least 12-18months, and how Im not interested in signing up for that either, until their prices are drasticly lowered.

She then went on to talk about how you get a few (5 I think)hrs free on one of their services, And I told them as I use the internet for at least 2hrs every weekday, and leave my computer downloading 48hrs at the weekend, a few hours wouldnt help my cause.


NTL offer 48hours at the weekend flat-rate to people leaving in Dublin, Waterford and Laois. I count my lucky stars that Im living in Waterford.


The eircom rep soon left saying she'd inform me when I-Stream was availible in my area.

BoneCollector

In all the time we have being trying to campaign.. its quite clear Who! and what is hold us up!

Its Bloody!! ERRCOM.. :mad:

THESE are the people that need attacking since it seems no other telco can introduce any flat rate product without ERRCOM providing the means to do so. ... and even then the cost is once again dictated by them!

basicaly! all other telco`s are re-sellers NOT! competition.

Can anyone see whats wrong with this picture!?

FACT!
1) ERRCOM IS A MONOPOLY

FACT!
2) ERRCOM HAS A MONOPOLY

FACT!
3) ERRCOM OWNS A MONOPOLY

Anyone notice the common fault here..?

I think the following.. says it all...
www.erinselbow.com/errorcom/

aidan_dunne

Originally posted by Tizlox
NTL offer 48hours at the weekend flat-rate to people leaving in Dublin, Waterford and Laois.

NTL don't operate in Laois.

ando

[rant]

Remember the comms bill was being introduced and the now famous, ridiculas move by that fat thing.. whats her name.. oh yeah, mary o rurke... remember she said there was some European law coming in 6-8 months that would be more effective than the comms bill in brining in flat rate, anyone have any more info on this as its coming closer to the time ??? This law is the thing that’s keeping my hopes alive for flat rate within the next year.

God damn, I'm still so pi$$ed off with oRurke... what a bitch, Does she even realize what she was doing ??? I bet she's practically forgotten all about the bill by now... Bitch. I'd love to shove my eircom bill up her **** every two months

[/rant over]

aidan_dunne

Originally posted by ando
[rant]Does she even realize what she was doing ???[/rant over]

Of course she knew what she was doing. She did what Eircom told her/paid her off to do, make sure the amendment for flat-rate didn't go through in the bill.

mike65

NTL are a plague in Dublin, Waterford and Galway !

Btw I heard they had stopped taking on any more domestic internet busines, is that wrong?

Mike.

Stonemason

Is that they are so short sighted do they really think people are going to forget how they are being treated now.
When real competion does eventualy arrive and it will despite Eircoms efforts i will be doing all in my power to leave Eircom to rot and i shall be telling anyone in the pubs,streets,shop to do likewise.
Eircom thinks it can fob me you and the entire irish public off with BS and spin and as ive said before i can see a tribunal coming in a couple of years that will really show what these scumbags have been up to.
All i can say is i hope the people responsible for retarding irelands growth wont be living in other counties or to frail to stand trial for coruption when the time comes.
One thing that does worry me is what will happen when ireland has returned to the status of laughing stock of europe and people dont wont to do busines here anymore due to lack of facilites.The economy will go into free fall but you can bet the TD,s will bury there heads in the sand and pretend its not happening then they will raise taxes to continue the elusion of the celtic tigger and guess whos going to be hit hardest again all thanks to Eircom!!! to far fetched ?Me thinks not



Stone

Digi_Tilmitt

Originally posted by The Gopher
I blame privatisation-if the gov had kept telecom eireann they could launch flatrate easily-if it wasnt making a profit the gov could prop it up until it did.

I totally agree on the privitization thing. The government made a right mess with that, they only half privitised it and now we suffer. Silly FF!!!!

dahamsta

I totally agree on the privitization thing. The government made a right mess with that, they only half privitised it and now we suffer.

I think the consensus on the committee is that if they had only half-privatised TE, we would be a lot better off now; in fact we might even be better off than if they hadn't privatised it at all. Comms infrastructure is next to impossible to make competitive in the short- to medium-term, but if the Government still controlled it, they would be able to drive competition by cutting wholesale prices. Eircom would follow the traditional SMP holder's path of keeping prices high or lowering them very slowly, whereas new entrants would undercut Eircom substantially to gain market share. Eircom would eventually give in to market forces, but by then they would have lost SMP and the market would be pretty competitive.

You only have to look at Verisign / Network Solutions to see an example of this in practise. They retained a high market share for a good while, but the new entrants are snapping at their heels the whole time. Now NetSol is in trouble, but the registry - Verisign Global Registries - is making a nice wedge. And the dumbasses in NetSol still haven't copped that they're going to have to drop their prices. Do you see the irony here? If Eircom started driving the wholesale section immediately they were privatised, they would be on a much more solid footing now. Eventually though, the rug's going to be pulled out from under them on retail, and all the while their competitors are going to be working on their own networks...

Silly FF!!!!

Well, that's something I don't think I'll argue with for a good while. Bertie's transformed himself from a wacker, to a statesman, and now he's heading back towards wacker again. What a muppet.

adam

BoneCollector

I will drop errcom like a rock as soon as i have an alternative to go to or i can get internet acces without needing a phone line.

I think the only thing holding ercom is! internet acess.
lets face it, who doesnt have a mobile? for making real calls.

it will save me money at least the line rental and it will be 24/7 and the sooner the better.. :mad:

ihatemushrooms

What would you see as an alternative, R U just looking for off peak and weekend use at better prices?

personally I would like a good price on 60 hrs per month access I think flat rate 24/7 will never arrive and 60hrs might be an option.

What do you think?

BoneCollector

I think flat rate 24/7 will never arrive

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=55425

This thread covers what 24/7 realy means..
It does not mean what most people expect it too.. which is to have your pc connected all the time 24hrs a day as a dialup server.

From this perspective above, 24/7 means "Available 24/7 at a flat rate" and not "on 24/7".
To also have it limited to say 100hrs a month would still be usefull since you could use it any time and any day without incurring extra costs.
This is the kinda product we need and not to be penalised for being online per min or at peak times as it is now.

I suppose also the next question is.. what should the average price be per hour?
probably something like €0.30, this would then come to €30 per-month.
You would think errcom would see this as reasonable cuz although heavy users would absolutly use all the time available upto and over the 100hrs, casual users would use it less and therefore the cost to errcom or esat would reduce or at least average out. (dont you think!?)

212.2.179.66

Eircom hmmmm. The only way to beat Eircom is to not support them in any way shape or form. They laugh at us all with our trivial whines and cribs becaouse we all still use/have to use them. If we had 20 or 30,000 supporters who were willing to try any alternative and drop Eircom all at one time i bet that would make them take notice. But until that happens i cannot see them changeing...can ye? It might be a shot in the dark but is there anything we could do to actually get that much support and do something like that? /me climbs down off cloud 99 now.

212.2.179.66

SkepticOne

Originally posted by 212.2.179.66 If we had 20 or 30,000 supporters who were willing to try any alternative and drop Eircom all at one time i bet that would make them take notice. But until that happens i cannot see them changeing...can ye?

Whilst it is true that we need to get the membership numbers up, event this, in itself, won't do much to force Eircom to change. The reason is that there simply isn't the option for these 20 or 30,000 supporters to switch to another operator completely. Essentially, in Ireland, you have Eircom providing 98% of the local lines and a number of telcos providing long distance and international services. These other companies also do local calls but in this case they are simply acting as billing organisations for Eircom. They simply resell Eircom services and Eircom gets the bulk of this money. So Eircom aren't too pushed if you switch to another operator becuase as the wholesale monopolist, they still get the bulk of the money.

Flat-rate will arrive in Ireland but not because of direct pressure on Eircom but rather because other operators will recognise the demand that is out there and will put pressure on the ODTR and the Governmant to force Eircom to provide the appropriate wholesale services. It was because of the lack of these wholesale services that ESAT's nolimits product failed. Other companies in Ireland are interested in flat-rate and see a demand but because they believe they won't get a good deal, they haven't to date bothered negotiating with Eircom for the appropriate types of access.

This is the current focus of IrelandOffline in its discussions with the ODTR and the operators and ISPs.

BoneCollector

Other companies in Ireland are interested in flat-rate and see a demand but because they believe they won't get a good deal, they haven't to date bothered negotiating with Eircom for the appropriate types of access.

This is the current focus of IrelandOffline in its discussions with the ODTR and the operators and ISPs.

Except from all information available, the ODTR does not have sufficient powers to force any thing on errcom except wholesale price, and from what im hearing the ODTR is sufficiently convinced that the current wholesale price from errcom is justified based on operation and cost of bringing a product to market, which im sure we all disagree with but the ODTR is! convinced!

And since it seems the ODTR can only step in the settle disputes, it seems its office does not or ever will play an active role in the provision of flat rate internet service`s

212.2.179.66

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Whilst it is true that we need to get the membership numbers up, event this, in itself, won't do much to force Eircom to change. The reason is that there simply isn't the option for these 20 or 30,000 supporters to switch to another operator completely. Essentially, in Ireland, you have Eircom providing 98% of the local lines and a number of telcos providing long distance and international services. These other companies also do local calls but in this case they are simply acting as billing organisations for Eircom. They simply resell Eircom services and Eircom gets the bulk of this money. So Eircom aren't too pushed if you switch to another operator becuase as the wholesale monopolist, they still get the bulk of the money.

Flat-rate will arrive in Ireland but not because of direct pressure on Eircom but rather because other operators will recognise the demand that is out there and will put pressure on the ODTR and the Governmant to force Eircom to provide the appropriate wholesale services. It was because of the lack of these wholesale services that ESAT's nolimits product failed. Other companies in Ireland are interested in flat-rate and see a demand but because they believe they won't get a good deal, they haven't to date bothered negotiating with Eircom for the appropriate types of access.

This is the current focus of IrelandOffline in its discussions with the ODTR and the operators and ISPs.

Ok fair enough let me put it another way. NOTHING! will happen until you see the Headline.... Eircom looses 30,000 customers as and from ******. IOFFL have decided they have Enough of Eircom's Bull****! As and from ****** 30,000 users will hand back in their Eircom phones and ask to have their Eircom Lines taken from their homes/buisnesses. And after in 1 months time a further 20,000 people will ask to have Eircom removed from their buisnesses/homes and so on. Although this may sound farsical to you and even me. This is 'THE' only way anyone here will make EIRCOM take any notice. It can be done!. Anyone that says it cant be done should NOT be here! If ye guys want to make this work.
1. Letter/s should be sent to every Company in Ireland about IOFFL.
2. Flyers should be sent to EVERY home in Ireland notifying everyone about IOFFL and ask for their support.
3. Blackouts should be Weekly or monthly.
4. Information as it comes in should be passed to EVERYONE! and not hidden.
5. IOFFL should be funded and have the means not be afraid to take on Eircom.
6. Im.... angry and annoyed that IOFFL do not have all this by now. 2 years on.
7. Revamp IOFFL and make it more agressive in its approche.
8. Im stopping b 4 i shoot myself in the foot!
9. My spelling is crap! ignore it ok.
10. Ye know what i mean... Make it happen!
Stop whinging and do it!

212.2.179.66

aidan_dunne

Originally posted by BoneCollector


Except from all information available, the ODTR does not have sufficient powers to force any thing on errcom except wholesale price, and from what im hearing the ODTR is sufficiently convinced that the current wholesale price from errcom is justified based on operation and cost of bringing a product to market, which im sure we all disagree with but the ODTR is! convinced!

And since it seems the ODTR can only step in the settle disputes, it seems its office does not or ever will play an active role in the provision of flat rate internet service`s

Well this certainly contradicts what you were saying on this post

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56042

where you seemed to be suggesting that you knew something the rest of us didn't and that flat-rate was on it's way.

Okay, on that post you did say the ODTR and the telecos wouldn't be the one's responsible for getting flat-rate up and running but who the hell is going to do it then? They will have to be involved in some way, particularly Eircom, because they own the lines. Are you suggesting flat-rate is going to appear out of nowhere or be carried through thin air (I'm disregarding wireless here folks! lol) or come out of our taps? Please explain the logic in your thinking.

sceptre

Originally posted by 212.2.179.66

Ok fair enough let me put it another way. NOTHING! will happen until you see the Headline.... Eircom looses 30,000 customers as and from ******. IOFFL have decided they have Enough of Eircom's Bull****! As and from ****** 30,000 users will hand back in their Eircom phones and ask to have their Eircom Lines taken from their homes/buisnesses. And after in 1 months time a further 20,000 people will ask to have Eircom removed from their buisnesses/homes and so on. Although this may sound farsical to you and even me. This is 'THE' only way anyone here will make EIRCOM take any notice. It can be done!. be funded and have the means not be afraid to take on Eircom.

Heh. I'm not going to say "it can't be done"

I'll say "it won't be done"

Esat are my home phone provider. Eircom own the line into my house. Short of cutting off my nose to spite someone else's face, I won't personally get rid of my Eircom line until someone else is prepared and licensed to put in another one.

Businesses will be in the same boat - they can make a business decision to use someone other than Eircom for their phone calls, leased lines and Internet access but they've no option but to use Eircom's phone line to make those calls. I'll say that again: they've no option but to use Eircom's phone line to make those calls. If they get rid of all their phone lines they won't have a business. Faced with a stark choice between having no business and having a business that is spending a lot of money on Internet access dut to Eircom's crazy interconnect rates and lack of a flat-rate option of reasonably priced broadband, they'd rather be overcharged rather than have no business at all.

On handing in my Eircom phone, already done that. And I'd suggest everyone else do the same - it's something of a sore sticking point for me, particularly since Eircom raised the phone rental due to "increased costs of providing the service"

6. Im.... angry and annoyed that IOFFL do not have all this by now. 2 years on.

One year on. Not that I'm being picky but it is in fact one year since IrelandOffline was set up. It may be two years since something else significant happened but if we're to pick an arbitrary date, let's at least pick the date that Eircom abandoned a flat free for local calls.

212.2.179.66

Originally posted by aidan_dunne


Well this certainly contradicts what you were saying on this post

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?s=&threadid=56042

where you seemed to be suggesting that you knew something the rest of us didn't and that flat-rate was on it's way.

Okay, on that post you did say the ODTR and the telecos wouldn't be the one's responsible for getting flat-rate up and running but who the hell is going to do it then? They will have to be involved in some way, particularly Eircom, because they own the lines. Are you suggesting flat-rate is going to appear out of nowhere are be carried through thin air (I'm disregarding wireless here folks! lol) or come out of our taps? Please explain the logic in your thinking.

Adrian,

There is a LOT of people willing to help in many ways. I really am sorry i ever posted here becaouse i should not really be involved. But it affects me and i want to be involved becaouse of the Crap! Eircom are dishing out! Instead of giveing me a load of grief! PLEASE READ what im trying to say! There ARE people out there willing to help and there is a lot more people willing to support IOFFL. FFS! mate If i put my hand up im out of a job! Read between the lines and seek out the people that want to help. Its time IOFFL get rid of their NAPPY's and came into the real world! Help is there / Support is there FFS! Funding! is there. Open your eyes! If ye want spoon feeding im afraid it's gone. Wake UP!

212.2.179.66

SkepticOne

Originally posted by 212.2.179.66

Adrian,

There is a LOT of people willing to help in many ways. I really am sorry i ever posted here becaouse i should not really be involved. But it affects me and i want to be involved becaouse of the Crap! Eircom are dishing out! Instead of giveing me a load of grief!

I'm sorry to hear that but don't get mad at people for pointing out flaws in your suggestions. They are not deliberately giving you grief; they are simply giving reasons why they think your ideas won't work.

aidan_dunne

Originally posted by 212.2.179.66
There is a LOT of people willing to help in many ways. I really am sorry i ever posted here becaouse i should not really be involved. But it affects me and i want to be involved becaouse of the Crap! Eircom are dishing out! Instead of giveing me a load of grief! PLEASE READ what im trying to say! There ARE people out there willing to help and there is a lot more people willing to support IOFFL. FFS! mate If i put my hand up im out of a job! Read between the lines and seek out the people that want to help. Its time IOFFL get rid of their NAPPY's and came into the real world! Help is there / Support is there FFS! Funding! is there. Open your eyes! If ye want spoon feeding im afraid it's gone. Wake UP!

212.2.179.66

Look, you seem to be trying to get at something but we don't know what it is. What is it we should be reading between the lines for? IOFFL and the rest of us don't have the time to spend playing games. Whatever it is you want to say or are getting at, just come out and say it, ok? You seem to be so knowledgeable about where IOFFL can get help and support, well then tell them and tell us but come straight out and say it for God's sake.

sceptre

Originally posted by aidan_dunne
Whatever it is you want to say or are getting at, just come out and say it, ok? You seem to be so knowledgeable about where IOFFL can get help and support, well then tell them and tell us but come straight out and say it for God's sake.

... or if you don't want to let people know in public, I'm sure Dave Long would love to hear about it in private. If there's a specific channel not explored, all the membership would be overjoyed if it was exploited

SkepticOne

Originally posted by BoneCollector
And since it seems the ODTR can only step in the settle disputes, it seems its office does not or ever will play an active role in the provision of flat rate internet service`s

It depends on what you are trying to get them to do. For example, the ODTR definately do not have the power to impose a retail flat-rate product on Eircom, but they have some power in the area of wholesale services. Recently, for example, they have made some changes to Eircom's RIO (Reference Interconnect Offer). This document outlines the services Eircom must offer OLOs (Other Licenced Operators, for example ESAT, NTL). One of the more interesting determinations is the provision of "near-end handover". This is something we pushed for in our first meeting with the DPE in connection with the fibre rings project. Our concern was that once the rings are complete, as far as standard dial-up services were concerned, the main beneficiary of these rings would be Eircom since they owned the last mile infrastructure between the rings and peoples houses. All other operators would have to connect at a high level to Eircom's network and so would not benefit thus reducing competition.

The decision notice is here.

Therefore, eircom is to implement the capability for Near End Handover in all AXE switches no later than three months from the date of this determination. Where Near End Handover is not immediately technically possible eircom is required to rate all their charges for "Near End" Handover as if they were in fact Near End where operators have a point of interconnection. In addition, to avoid the requirement for an OLO to duplicate capacity at an E10 switch at which eircom do not physically hand over traffic and the AXE switch at which the traffic is handed over. When eircom receive a request for interconnection for NTC traffic at an E10 switch they shall advise the OLO of the location at which the interconnect needs to be physically provided.

Here, the ODTR is imposing a new service on Eircom which has not (to my knowledge) been the result of breakdown of negotiations but simply the result of consultation.

I'm using this as an example of the ODTR exercising power, but this decision, in itself, is a step in the direction of capacity based pricing since it removes lack of capacity arguments that Eircom may use in refusing flat-wholesale rates to OLOs.

dahamsta

1. Letter/s should be sent to every Company in Ireland about IOFFL.

Show me the money.

2. Flyers should be sent to EVERY home in Ireland notifying everyone about IOFFL and ask for their support.

Show me the money.

3. Blackouts should be Weekly or monthly.

I'll concede quarterly. However, are you aware of the actual /grind/ we put into organising the first one?

4. Information as it comes in should be passed to EVERYONE! and not hidden.

IrelandOffline cannot survive without information, some of which we could - will - be sued for disclosing, or even disclosing its existence. Will you pay for my defense?

5. IOFFL should be funded and have the means not be afraid to take on Eircom.

Show me the money. Our account number is listed in another thread. Attach a note telling us it's you.

6. Im.... angry and annoyed that IOFFL do not have all this by now. 2 years on.

One year.

7. Revamp IOFFL and make it more agressive in its approche.

You only have to read my posts to see that I agree with this one. The problem we're faced with is that if we get agressive, we'll lose all our contacts and support within the industry and the regulatory environment. It's a tradeoff. A very expensive tradeoff.

8. Im stopping b 4 i shoot myself in the foot!

Perhaps you should.

9. My spelling is crap! ignore it ok.

Sounds familiar.

10. Ye know what i mean... Make it happen!

Are you a member? Why don't /you/ make it happen?

Stop whinging and do it!

Pot. Kettle.

adam

Dustaz

I agree with what everyone has said more or less, but would like to re-iterate something.

Originally posted by 212.2.179.66

PLEASE READ what im trying to say! There ARE people out there willing to help and there is a lot more people willing to support IOFFL. FFS! mate If i put my hand up im out of a job! Read between the lines and seek out the people that want to help.

Youve given noone anything to go on. As Sceptre said, if you really think that you can help, pm/email danger and give him a call. The committe deal with anonymous sources all the time, and there are a few who post here. If you dont speak up your guilty of what you are accusing ioffl of.

MarkR

You're part of the solution or part of the problem? I hope he does have some groundbreaking ideas! As for this reading between the lines, you sound like a snitch in a bad movie!

I will try to help with his suggestions though. I play four lines of qick pick every wednesday and saturday, and I'f i win the jackpot, IOFFL get a bob or two.

BoneCollector

f we had 20 or 30,000 supporters who were willing to try any alternative and drop Eircom

You just hit the nail on the head here...
we need leverage... if we could canvas to get proper membership and funding from people commited to change, then we would be a threat to eircom and they would have to listen or we would instruct our membership to take action in what ever form that would be, (like hand your phone back, withold paying any bill, etc.. )
we are stronger in numbers than we are without..
At the same time this is probably long term and the current situation is, we need action yesterday unless we expect to wait another year.