Interesting take on Mp3s and piracy?

Red Moose

OK, I have never read of a situation like this on the net already, so tell me what you think:

I mentioned Section 50 of the Irish copyright law already in another post, but here I am talking about if the DMCA is ratified in the EU as well (probably will be).

So, it is illegal to decrypt songs or videos, although you can make as many ballsed up macrovision-screwed copies as you have blanks CDs.

But what about broadcast TV? No-one has mentioned this.

When MTV is decoded from the Astra satellites or wherever by my NTL box, it is on my screen and coming out of the speakers.

And it's all been already decrypted:

So my point is what if I take that sound output and have it input into my PC for encoding....same deal with movies on TV. How abotu Sky Premier movies. They end up decrypted and I encode that openly no-longer encrypted data from my TV card into DivX?

Would the DMCA apply in this case? I think not as I would have done nothing to circumvent the encryption and would be legally entitled to the home-made copy then. Which in Ireland could be passed around to everybody if they all decided to use it under the Fair Use: Personal Study & Research, section 50.

Any thoughts on this?

phaxx

Urm, nah, you're still violating the copyright on the films by passing it around.

_CreeD_

If it was okay to copy an un-encoded stream then you could pirate anything, you'd just have to grab it again after the decoding stage.
I think you'd also have to take into account the license granted in the contract you sign for the service.

elexes

just wondering if you dont charge for it can they still bugger you back to the stonage ??

---

what type of world will we live in when there is no world ?

hudson806

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Red Moose:

And it's all been already decrypted:

So my point is what if I take that sound output and have it input into my PC for encoding....same deal with movies on TV. How abotu Sky Premier movies. They end up decrypted and I encode that openly no-longer encrypted data from my TV card into DivX?

Would the DMCA apply in this case? I think not as I would have done nothing to circumvent the encryption and would be legally entitled to the home-made copy then. Which in Ireland could be passed around to everybody if they all decided to use it under the Fair Use: Personal Study & Research, section 50.
</font>

I think you're probably right-ish.

First of though, I would say that it _would_ fall foul of Fair Dealing - although it can be argued otherwise, I'd seriously doubt any court would let you get away with it.

However, under the US DMCA, once the information has been decryped, the DMCA becomes irrelevant and it becomes a simple copyright law matter.

Of course, modifying the playback device to output digital information could be considered the use of a 'circumvention device'. This is the main reason why there are no digital video outputs on DVD players - the DMCA can't be used to control your (legal) use of that digital information, but it can be used to stop you extracting the information in digital form in the first place.

With regards to encoding to DIVX, that is undoubtedly perfectly legal, as long as you use an unmodified output from the STB (invariably analogue, thanks to Sky etc.), but remember that SkyBO uses Macrovision, and bypassing that would be illegal under proposed EU legislation (don't think the US DMCA applies to it though).

The movie studios have as much as said that they don;t care about analogue recordings though - the quality is such $hit that they just don't see them as a threat, I guess.

Just my $0.02...

[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 24-08-2001).]

WhiteWashMan

at the end of the day, you can do what ever you like with whatever medium you like as long as you are entitled to the medium.
ie, if you have a cd, you can copy, burn it, mp3 it whatever. if it comes through your tv, decrypted or other wise (why?) you can do the same.
but....
you are still not allowed to pass it around, as you are then in breach of copyright laws.
ok.
sorted

hudson806

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:
at the end of the day, you can do what ever you like with whatever medium you like as long as you are entitled to the medium.
ie, if you have a cd, you can copy, burn it, mp3 it whatever. if it comes through your tv, decrypted or other wise (why?) you can do the same.
but....
you are still not allowed to pass it around, as you are then in breach of copyright laws.
ok.
sorted </font>

The DMCA in the USA (and soon the EU Copyright Directive, May 2001) changes that. Under those laws it is/will be illegal to circumvent copy prevention mechanisms on (digital) content. So, for example, it would be illegal for you to make a DIVX out of a DVD, since it would involve using software to bypass the CSS system that 'protects' DVDs. It will be illegal to bypass Macrovision's SafeAudio copy prevention system on CDs. It doesn't matter how legal the intended use is (bar a couple of very minor exceptions, and not including Fair Use), the very act of circumventing the prevention system will be a criminal act.

Horrible, eh?


[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 24-08-2001).]

irishguy

if it was illigal would it stop you?

---

life:sexualy transmitted allways fatal
pa153@hotmail.com

WhiteWashMan

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by irishguy:
if it was illigal would it stop you?

</font>

probably. if i like something i will buy it.
the only exception is that i like to play my tunes in mp3 format, sinply because i dont have a stereo and i have akick a$$ speaker set up for my pc. besides, its too hard to play an audio cd and use a cd for a game or something at the same time
but no, i generally dont copy, rip off, or whatever anything. like i said, id prefer to buy it. besdies, i have too much money anyway

hudson806

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by WhiteWashMan:

but no, i generally dont copy, rip off, or whatever anything. like i said, id prefer to buy it. besdies, i have too much money anyway </font>

I agree. The reason I don't like this development is because it will criminalise me for excercising my Fair Use rights. Like yourself, I almost exclusively use MP3 for listening to the music that I bought on CD (unlike most people, I think IEP15 for a CD is cheap enough that its not worth my while tracking down the latest Napster clone). Now it will be illegal to bypass the copy-prevention on the CD to enable me to do that, even though what I want to do it for perfectly legal reasons.

I shouldn't have to go hunting through warez sites for software that allows me to exercise my fair use rights, or trading phr3AkY Ph!L3s with moronic American teenagers on IRC, but this law will force me to.

And more to the point, it will make me a criminal when I haven't done anything wrong. What could be worse than that?

_CreeD_

I wouldn't worry too much about making personal copies of your own music. I doubt the authorities in any country will bother with individual users unless the copyright owner makes a point of it - and considering they pretty much all support the SCMS (Serial Copy Management System, one digital copy of a master allowed) that's pretty unlikely.

hudson806

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by _CreeD_:
I wouldn't worry too much about making personal copies of your own music. I doubt the authorities in any country will bother with individual users unless the copyright owner makes a point of it - and considering they pretty much all support the SCMS (Serial Copy Management System, one digital copy of a master allowed) that's pretty unlikely.</font>

I think it makes a lot of sense to worry:

I won't be allowed to exercise my basic 'Fair Use' rights, which are a cornerstone of copyright law, and have struck the balance between copyright holders and consumers for over 100 years. The European Copyright directive will serve not to strengthen existing rights of copyright holders, but to allow then to create new rights at their whim: They could make CDs that allow you to make two copies, but not three. Thats not what my Fair Dealing rights allow - the law on that says something else, namely that I can make as many fair copies as I like,and that I can 'space-shift' the music I buy to other formats, such as mp3, but it will no longer matter because I will no longer be allowed to exercise that right.

What about Digital Television? In an all -digital world, Sky could start putting arbitrary restrictions on the programmes they transmit - say, you can record 2 shows a day, and they're automatically wiped from your hard disk recorder after one week. Where did that right come from? The law says, basically, I have the right to record what I have the right to see, but Sky have taken away that right, and the Government have allowed them to, through the backdoor, by forbidding me to bypass their protection, all because they know that if they enacted a law that said, "Sky can put whatever restrictions they like on content in order to make more money", the public would go ballistic.

What's worse is that the content companies want to reserve all these rights for themselves, by denying the public access to the technologies for themselves - you can't copy protect DVDs you make on DVD-R drives, you can't make copies at all using most DV cameras, because they usually don't feature DV inputs (mainly so you don't do anything naughty, like copy a movie - remember that companies like Sony and Matsush|ta are closely tied to the so-called 'content' industry)

Even if "Intellectual Property" owners choose not to sue end-users, it won't matter - where am I going to get software that allows me to make the 3rd copy of a CD that my Fair Use right allows? I won't be able to, because they will all have been driven off the market by record executives and the police claiming they are 'circumvention devices', and threatening to put their creators in jail.

This is probably a slightly longer answer than you wanted, but I'd really like to get across the point that this is vitally important, and anybody who doesn't believe it, hasn't thought it through fully.

[This message has been edited by hudson806 (edited 24-08-2001).]

seamus

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by elexes:
just wondering if you dont charge for it can they still bugger you back to the stonage ??
</font>

Only if you 'distribute' it. Give it to your mate. If anyone asks, It's still your property, and your mate was just taking a lend. Just put a little sticker or sumfink on it to that effect, like the disclaimer on your passport.

JustHalf

Pretty much... you're still breaking the same laws.

_CreeD_

Guys put it in perspective. It's always been illegal to make copies of just about all commercial media. Look on the back of a book, or CD/whatever and you will see that you are not to lend, copy manipulate etc. at all (yet the same companies signed up for SCMS). That hasn't stopped anyone.
As for where would you get software to allow you to exercise your fair-rights....well, pretty much anywhere on the web.
Any protection method will be cracked.

Decryption copyright laws to me seems aimed at providing a specific avenue for the law to prosecute professional pirates, and those that create the utilities.

And as for Sky, well they've always been a shower of bahstids, they have a monopoly for the moment. If they do something you don't agree with then find an alternative product, vote with your wallet.

hudson806

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by _CreeD_:
Guys put it in perspective. It's always been illegal to make copies of just about all commercial media. Look on the back of a book, or CD/whatever and you will see that you are not to lend, copy manipulate etc. at all (yet the same companies signed up for SCMS). That hasn't stopped anyone.</font>

Creed, it has never been illegal to make copies of this kind of material. That is the sole reason why avenues are currently open to us to make those copies. When it becomes a criminal offense to do so, you can bet the 'IP' owners will stamp down as hard on us here as they did in the States. To think otherwise would be naive.

Look at the Electronic Frontier Foundation Website, read about the work of Professor Ed Felton on SDMI, read about the Adobe Ebook hacking, read about DeCSS. I guarantee it will send a chill through you.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
As for where would you get software to allow you to exercise your fair-rights....well, pretty much anywhere on the web.
Any protection method will be cracked.
</font>

Yes, and now the person who cracked it will go to jail, even if it is just to exercise their fair use rights (which coincidentally have just been obliterated by the law change)

As regards your reply to the Sky comment: Without the Euro Copyright Directive, at least I could have had my Digibox hacked to remove the restrictions. After its passed, I could go to jail for trying.

And in case you think this law is to stop mass piracy and not end-users, remember that programs like DeCSS aren't needed to make pirate DVDs (you can just copy them byte-for-byte to do that). DeCSS does have fair use rights though and that is exactly what they are trying to take on - not the pirates (to whom the EuroCopyDirective and DMCA are essentially irrelevant, as what they do is already illegal under copyright law and not the DMCA)

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Decryption copyright laws to me seems aimed at providing a specific avenue for the law to prosecute professional pirates, and those that create the utilities.
</font>

Read my previous point above. Unfortunately, that is 100% untrue, as much as those in power would like you to believe it. By example, www.techtronics.com, multi-region DVD player specialists, will be forced to close down under the EuroCopyDirective. Who will that affect? Europeans sick of overpriced poor quality Region 2 crap. Now we will be forced to buy R2 by law. This goes against every free trade law in the world, but the IP owners have persuaded our governments to buy into it. Nothing to do with Professional Piracy - its a attack on your rights and mine.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
And as for Sky, well they've always been a shower of bahstids, they have a monopoly for the moment. If they do something you don't agree with then find an alternative product, vote with your wallet. </font>

And when all the alternative products have similar restrictions, all of which could land me in jail for trying to bypass (not that I could find a company to make the modifications in that environment)?

Red Moose

But what if you DON'T bypass the encryption and just copy the resulting unencrypted signal - you've got to be able to see with your own eyes the final product right?

And how about making MP3s out of MTV's broadcasts, coming in and decrypted by my Sky Digibox, and then I output it to my computer which records and encodes it. I never broke a law there, did I?

And come to think of it, the audio is never encrypted anyway. Therefore in the US right now you could simply record from the visually encrypted MTV channel all the brand new MP3s you wanted and never break the DMCA because you would be using the "Home Use" bit. How about that then? NO interference with the encryption at all.....

And all of the signal is being transmitted digitally (in the future?) so the quality is CD quality. It seems like they can have all the interim encryption and restriction that they want, but basically at the end of the day, the consumer must be able to see and hear the product they want to sell.

So if I can see it, then I can back up whatever it is, either video or audio, and never once mess with decryption or the law. Or are they eventualy going to have thought police so no more singing in the shower because the song you're humming is copyright..........

_CreeD_

Copying material to which the vendor has applied a restriction as a condition of sale is at the very least breach of contract and copyright. That has always been illegal.

The lack of alternatives to the likes of sky is ultimately not a reason to repeal these laws. You're confusing 'fair rights' with what you happen to think is fairest for you, it also applies to those who are trying to make some money on their service/product.
Now I wholeheartedly believe that once you have bought a product you have the right to be making use of One copy of it at any one time, no matter what format happens to suit you. BUT if a company decides to introduce a method of protection to stop you doing that, it is their right - I'm not saying that's a nice thing to do, but they have every right to do so. I also have every right to not buy their product.
Of course companies are going to lobby the govt. to introduce laws that increase their sales by hook or crook, that's their job. If you don't like it then lobby back, form a consumer group and boycott any unfairly restrictive products.

I copy my own music to MP3 all the time, I travel a lot and cant drag so many CD's with me, I fully intend to do that regardless of the laws that are introduced. I have a funny feeling that Sony/whoever aren't going to come knocking on my door telling me to stop being bold. It's too much work for too little gain.


Ps. As for Techtronics, considering the bahstids took 7 weeks and 40+ emails to ship me a DVD player, a week after I left the damn country for 3 months, no great loss....