give refugees and assylum seekers a break!!!

fisifan01

i am sick to death of people scapegoating refugees and assylum seekers for lack of housing and social welfare problems. These people are just as entitled to those benefits as we are. Who are we to call ourselfs irish? you will find that if you trace your family back far enough you have foreign connections coming from left right and centre. even if your name is moore or if your hair is red.
if you have problems with housing or jobs attack the system not assylum seekers!!!0

bonkey

Originally posted by fisifan01
if you have problems with housing or jobs attack the system not assylum seekers!!!0

I think you'll find that most people are attacking the system. They want the system changed in order to deal with the perceived problem. Whether or not the sought-after changes are right or fair is a seperate issue.

If I petition for the government to clamp down on illegal immigrants, and to implement a more stringent policy in terms of how it deals with immigrants relative to nationals, I am attacking the system surely?

This seems to be the large majority of the issues being taken.

On a related note, I would question whether or not there is a degree of hypocracy in turning a blind eye to our homeless and disenfranchised nationals, often claiming insufficient funding to deal with the problem, and then spending a fortune alleviating the suffering of others.

Yes, helping immigrants is humanitarian. However, helping our own is no less humanitarian. I find it distasteful (at the very least) that our increase in spending on helping foreign immigrants and refugees has not been at least matched by an equal increase in spending dealing with our indigenous problems.

jc

fisifan01

they is a a certain validity to your point. but why should immigration be illegel? ireland was unihabited 10,000 years ago. so technically we are all immigrants. so i would call opposing immigration hypocracy if anything

dathi1

yes but there was no ice age social welfare starter packs.

pro_gnostic_8

I dunno if this is the most appropiate forum to address this issue, but, anyway.....

Originally posted by fisifan01
These people are just as entitled to those benefits as we are.

I don't quite understand your anger. They ARE getting the benefits that indigenous Irish people get ........ in some instances even more. It is my belief that they are receiving a better deal here than they would in any other target country. Maybe this is the reason for the enormous influx of transients to these shores. From the Horn of Africa to the Russian border, Ireland is seen as a soft touch.
At the risk of getting flamed, I disagree that "these people are just as entitled to those benefits as we are." Disadvantaged Irish people should have first call on limited resources ahead of economic migrants IMO.

QUOTE: "Who are we to call ourselfs irish?"
I s'pose it's because we are native-born citizens of Ireland.

fisifan01

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
I dunno if this is the most appropiate forum to address this issue, but, anyway.....



I don't quite understand your anger. They ARE getting the benefits that indigenous Irish people get ........ in some instances even more. It is my belief that they are receiving a better deal here than they would in any other target country. Maybe this is the reason for the enormous influx of transients to these shores. From the Horn of Africa to the Russian border, Ireland is seen as a soft touch.
At the risk of getting flamed, I disagree that "these people are just as entitled to those benefits as we are." Disadvantaged Irish people should have first call on limited resources ahead of economic migrants IMO.

QUOTE: "Who are we to call ourselfs irish?"
I s'pose it's because we are native-born citizens of Ireland.

if you a true patriot you would be proud that people are choosing ireland to come to. Secondly there is no such thing as a native irish person as i implied in my previous post

Blade

Originally posted by fisifan01
if you a true patriot you would be proud that people are choosing ireland to come to

Oh yeh I'm so proud that they're choosing my country to come to due to it's amazing weather and really cheap cost of living!

Will you ever feic off, they're coming here for the easy money handouts.

Samson

Originally posted by fisifan01
These people are just as entitled to those benefits as we are.

This is true.
Where the problem arises (and therefore the animosity) is when these "refugees" get their "entitlements" (and more of them than what Irish people are entitled to, apparently) before everyone else.

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by fisifan01


Secondly there is no such thing as a native irish person as i implied in my previous post

NATIVE......... from the Latin "nativus" (born in a specific place)
Therefore:................ native Irish = born in Ireland.

But I'll defer to Mr Dictionary's expert opinion on this

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by Blade



Will you ever feic off, they're coming here for the easy money handouts.

And for the "bit o' skirt" too !

Keep on Trekin

Yes I remember my sisters, Aunts and Unles who went to the USA and Australia.

They were given free houses, free heating, bus passes and spending so that they would continue to do nothing but leech of the system.

NOT

my relatives worked their F*cking asses off for F*ck all money, and it took ages for them to be accepted as citizens.

Working nights, Lotteries for VISas, working 3 jobs, looking after kids...


The ones in Ireland will never work like this and
The majority of refugeses in Ireland should be deported.

Keep on Trekin

The refugees in Ireland are given too much.

The Irish never got this welcome.

Remeber those

NO blacks
No Dogs
No Irish

Signs?

Von

Originally posted by Keep on Trekin
Yes I remember my sisters, Aunts and Unles who went to the USA and Australia.

They were given free houses, free heating, bus passes and spending so that they would continue to do nothing but leech of the system.

Were your relatives oppressed in some way in Ireland? Or were they just too thick or lazy or drunk to get a job here?

A refugee is a person who fulfils the requirements of Article 1(A) of the 1951 Geneva Convention. A person should be recognised as a “refugee” where s/he can show a well-founded fear of persecution in his/her country of origin on the grounds of race, religion, nationality, membership of a particular social group or political opinion.

Being "thick", "bored with the rain" or "barred from every pub in the locality" are not valid grounds for claiming refugee status unfortunately.

Of course no viciously oppressed Irish person who went to Britain, Australia or the US ever dreamed of ripping off the system in any way.

dathi1

Quote/////The refugees in Ireland are given too much.

The Irish never got this welcome.

Remeber those

NO blacks
No Dogs
No Irish

Signs?
//////////Quote

Shi....t!! in that case open the borders and let everbody in... sure its only costin us €430,000,000 a year so far...forget about everybody else.... hell lets go for €1billion ....and then we can feel good about ourselves. Move the Songat camp to Ireland!

fisifan01

Originally posted by Keep on Trekin
The refugees in Ireland are given too much.

The Irish never got this welcome.

Remeber those

NO blacks
No Dogs
No Irish

Signs?

i understand that irish people were treated like dirt worldwide. but that doesnt mean we should treat assylum seekers in the same manner

Blade

Originally posted by fisifan01
i understand that irish people were treated like dirt worldwide. but that doesnt mean we should treat assylum seekers in the same manner

i am sick to death of people scapegoating refugees and assylum seekers

Refugees are asylum seekers.

From your few posts that I've read I've come to the conclusion that you don't understand the difference between the words 'refugees' 'economic migrants' and 'asylum seekers'.

In your posts, which asylum seekers are you referring to? The genuine refugees or the economic migrants? Seems to me that your throwing them all into the one category. I don't think anyone here is complaining about genuine refugees (or at least they shouldn't be) because these are people who are usually fleeing for their lives and contrary to popular belief they are NOT given loads of money and they're only housed here temporarily, eventually they would be sent back to their own countries, assuming they don't have a baby here. I think the problem lots of people have is with that ridiculous loophole that having a baby here allows you to stay and entitles you to around 900 Euro a month on benefits and that this loophole is being exploited (according to the Ireland on Sunday) by 50% of asylum seekers.

As the man said: years ago this land was invaded by the black and tans, now a days it's the black and prams.

Duke of Well

Originally posted by Blade



contrary to popular belief they are NOT given loads of money and they're only housed here temporarily, eventually they would be sent back to their own countries, assuming they don't have a baby here.

(according to the Ireland on Sunday) by 50% of asylum seekers.


As the man said: years ago this land was invaded by the black and tans, now a days it's the black and prams.

ha ha

good quote.

But one can also get citizenship if one were to say they faced religious or political persecution one returning home.

Ha Ha

Silly Paddies, and Silly Scots, cos the Scotish savages are having this debate too.

mike65

Originally posted by Keep on Trekin


my relatives worked their F*cking asses off for F*ck all money, and it took ages for them to be accepted as citizens.

Working nights, Lotteries for VISas, working 3 jobs, looking after kids...

The ones in Ireland will never work like this and
The majority of refugeses in Ireland should be deported.

Incommers to Ireland from outside the EU are not allowed to work
until they get clerance from the dept of Labour which "wetback" immigrants are not getting, if they were allowed to work they would, doing all the jobs the Irish now consider beneath them.

Keep on Trekin...to another board...

Mike.

dathi1

if they were allowed to work they would, doing all the jobs the Irish now consider beneath them

in that case we should give them all work visas...give all their offspring passports....let them stay....don’t deport anybody. No DNA tests....No fingerprinting. No vouchers. let as many come in as possible....make special laws for them......that’s em...75 million Nigerians 50m Romanians etc. Traid gangs also welcome...kill your mates in Dublin today....the place to be!

mike65

dathi1,

Are you saying no Irish gangs ever caused mayhem in another countries captial city?!

As for "just open the door an let 'em in" I'm not saying that-plainly there has to be control at some level. I just get pissed-off at the ignorant racism that some here indulge in aparantly
unaware of the law which means wetbcaks can't work, so they
the tossers, think immigrants are sponging. If they could work they would'nt be sponging any more than the average native.

BTw way the population of Romainia is 23 million.

dathi1

unaware of the law which means wetbcaks can't work, so they

You're right...I'm gona give up the day job and start working the Jax in town. 100-150 euros a night and pick up welfare on top.

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by mike65
I just get pissed-off at the ignorant racism that some here indulge in

Why is it that if anyone suggests immigration control they are automatically accused of being a racist?


QUOTE:
"Unaware of the law which means wetbacks can't work"

WE are aware of this, and I for one agree with it. Wages are low enough as it is without being further depressed by an unlimited influx of non-EU labour.


QUOTE:
"BTW, the population of Romania is 23 million"

And most of 'em seem to be over here!

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by dathi1
You're right...I'm gona give up the day job and start working the Jax in town. 100-150 euros a night and pick up welfare on top.

And still have the daytime hours free for a bit o' begging

bonkey

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
Why is it that if anyone suggests immigration control they are automatically accused of being a racist?

Why is it that if anyone mentions racism it is automatically assumed they are referring to everyone who suggests immigration control?

Originally posted by dathi1
in that case we should give them all work visas...give all their offspring passports....let them stay....don’t deport anybody. No DNA tests....No fingerprinting. No vouchers. let as many come in as possible....make special laws for them......that’s em...75 million Nigerians 50m Romanians etc. Traid gangs also welcome...kill your mates in Dublin today....the place to be!

I dont get it.

You have a problem with immigrants being allowed suck off the system, and when someone points out that part of the reason that they have to suck off the system is that they are not allowed work, you ridicule this as well.

Can you explain what the problem is with allowing someone into the country to fill a job vacancy? Exactly what is wrong with allowing immigrants come here to find work? Because this is what you're railing against here. You're either saying "I dont want them here, period", or you're saying "I dont want them given state money, and they shouldnt be allowed work either", which is pretty much saying that you dont want them here.

jc



jc

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by bonkey

Why is it that if anyone mentions racism it is automatically assumed they are referring to everyone who suggests immigration control?




jc

In my experience, someone who mentions racism is invariably referring to anyone else who disagrees with their liberal view, whether it be on immigration control or any other race-related issue. This is the new Fascism. Shout down anyone who proposes an opposing view. Hold vociferous and sometimes violent demonstrations to prevent David Irving, Henry Kissinger etc from speaking. Riot in the streets aginst G8 summits. The Bono's and Mary Robinson's et al of this world are the only ones uncensored by this new-leftist agenda.

QUOTE:
_______________________________________________
"Exactly what is wrong with allowing immigrants to come her looking for work?"
_______________________________________________
What is wrong with it is that for every one of them getting a job it means one less job for an Irish person. Last months Live Register figures were the highest for over 18 months. 9,000 extra on the dole. This small country cannot absorb this wave of immigration. Of course, Capitalism will always welcome a high pool of unemployment .... that tends to keep wages down due to competion in the labour market, but, the downside is the bleeding dry of the Social Welfare system.

bonkey

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
In my experience, someone who mentions racism is invariably referring to anyone else who disagrees with their liberal view, whether it be on immigration control or any other race-related issue.

But dont you see the inherent cyclical argument here?

There are still racists about, and they will use the exact same argument you have put forward as to why those making allegations of racism must be wrong.

This is the new Fascism. Shout down anyone who proposes an opposing view.

Really? So here you are decrying at how your argument is being shouted out by those damned Facists on the other side.

First of all, this is hardly a balanced statement. It is tarring everyone opposing you with the same brush. Are you calling me a Facist? If not, then how is your brutal generalisation any different?

Again - its a circular argument. It is circular because these "features" of people's style are not limited to one group or another, to Left or Right, or to any political affilliation.

And yet, when people complain about them (as you are doing), it is invariably branded as Left/Right, Facist/Anarchist/Anti-Systemist or whatever it is you happen to throw as a slur while complaining about the slurs you feel are thrown at you.

What is wrong with it is that for every one of them getting a job it means one less job for an Irish person. Last months Live Register figures were the highest for over 18 months.

Can we take it therefore, that beyond the jobs for the allowed 3% of the workforce accepted to be "in transit" at any given time, there are no jobs actually being advertised in Ireland at present?

You see, this is the great fallacy of unemployment. When our unemployment figures were at their lowest in recent years, we still had unemployed people, and we had businesses crying out for people to give jobs to. Why? Because people didnt want those jobs for one reason or another.

Today is little different. How many IT consultants who have lost their jobs in recent downsizing do you know? How many of them will be willing to take a job packing shelves in Tesco's if one is offered? Anyone not willing, in my opinion, has absolutely no right to receive unemployment assistance. None whatsoever. Yet I guarantee you that most IT consultants who are out of work are staying out of work while looking for the next well-paid job "in the industry".

I live in a country where about 1/6 of the workforce are non-nationals. And yet unemployment is very low. Why? Its simple - to hire a foreigner, the employer must show that he made reasonable efforts to find an equally suitable national, and failed.

This gives locals the job security which you put so much stock in, and still allows immigrants and refugees a chance to work. Its not hard to do. Honest.

jc

dathi1

The debate here about Fascists and Racism is irrelevant. The vast majority of peope here (including me) tend to get on overall with imigrants. The fact is we now since shengin have uncontrolled borders. (Part of the EU thingy I know). Its not right that anybody can just walk straight into this jurisdiction illegally. We may as well have no borders and let every body through. I really couldn't care less who comes in provided its done through the right legal channels. Like Australia, New Zealand, The good old US of A. etc.. This Asylum Seeker Passport Baby scandal has to be done away with now...no other country would even think about it.
As for EU expansion which is ok except : www.isis.ie/nice.jpg

dathi1

Also:
There should be strict DNA testing of all parents and children illegally entering this jurisdiction to prevent major welfare fraud which is the case now. ( Ie; Panorama program 3mths ago on Nigerian Baby scandal in London and Butlins Mosney camp).

pro_gnostic_8

QUOTE:
____________________________________________________
"Really? So here you are decrying at how your argument is being shouted out by those damned Facists on the other side.

First of all, this is hardly a balanced statement. It is tarring everyone opposing you with the same brush. Are you calling me a Facist? If not, then how is your brutal generalisation any different?"
____________________________________________________

Hi Bonkey. Of course not am I calling you a Fascist and I do apologise if that was the impression conveyed. Neither am I fulminating at anyone who disagrees with my viewpoint. Rather, my intention was to focus on the Fascist tendency among the "Hug an Asylum Seeker" brigade (NASC, RAG, etc) to deny the right of speech to those who disagree.


QUOTE:
____________________________________________________

Today is little different. How many IT consultants who have lost their jobs in recent downsizing do you know? How many of them will be willing to take a job packing shelves in Tesco's if one is offered? Anyone not willing, in my opinion, has absolutely no right to receive unemployment assistance. None whatsoever. Yet I guarantee you that most IT consultants who are out of work are staying out of work while looking for the next well-paid job "in the industry".
____________________________________________________
This is really not the debate, is it? Whether out-of-contract IT consultants should be forced to work cleaning toilets under threat of losing their social welfare maintenance( which they have paid for thru' PRSI contributions) is beside the point. The point is that non-EU economic migrants would - if allowed to work here - drag down the salary profile of all jobs. This is incontovertible fact. Indeed, if I were an employer I could source Indian IT consultants for 1/10th of the acceptable salary and make a considerable contribution towardss consigning our own indigenous Irish IT personnel to Tesco shelf-stacking. Is this what you want?


QUOTE:
____________________________________________________

"I live in a country where about 1/6 of the workforce are non-nationals. And yet unemployment is very low. Why? Its simple - to hire a foreigner, the employer must show that he made reasonable efforts to find an equally suitable national, and failed."
____________________________________________________
As you are no doubt aware, a similar scheme applies in Ireland. I have seen many of thse newspaper notices to the Department and most if not all of the jobs on offer are Minimum Rate wages. Rather than colluding in allowing in foreign workers, the Government would be better advised in persuading these "employers" to pay a decent rate to Irish workers.

Von

Originally posted by Blade

I think the problem lots of people have is with that ridiculous loophole that having a baby here allows you to stay and entitles you to around 900 Euro a month on benefits and that this loophole is being exploited (according to the Ireland on Sunday) by 50% of asylum seekers.

Lors, I'd be very sceptical of figures like that especially coming from Ireland on Sunday. It's owned by the Daily Mail group which takes a notoriously xenophobic editorial slant. In the past it came out with this stuff:

1933: "All British men and women should study the progress of Nazi Germany and not be misled by the misrepresentations of its opponents." [Lord Rothermere, owner of the Mail]

1934 "Hurrah For the Blackshirts", followed by an eulogy to Moseley and an appeal for young men to join the BUF.

1938: Rothermere writes in praise of Hitler after the annexation of Czechoslovakia: "I salute your excellency's star which rises higher and higher. "

Anyway, I propose that all immigrants - whether they're EU or non-EU, refugee, asylum seeker or martian - should have their faces coloured black until the authorities have declared them to be 100% legit. That way we know who to shout abuse at in the streets.

bonkey

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
The point is that non-EU economic migrants would - if allowed to work here - drag down the salary profile of all jobs. This is incontovertible fact.

Fraid not.

Again, taking my Swiss example. When I applied for my job here, it was forutnately at a time when they simply couldnt get enough IT professionals.

However, my GF works for a financial company who basically handle the books, salaries, etc. for a multitude of small businesses. Accountancy, legal advice, the works. She has a lot of experience in the same system across fields such as restaurants etc.

Anyway....if a company hires someone who is not a proven Swiss national, and who does not have a work permit, they will get hit with a massive fine. This prevents them from doing this, to the most part.

Instead, when they wish to hire a non-national, they must hand over details of where the advertised the job, what responses they received, and so on. The government (actually cantonal, not national) office in charge of these affairs then looks at the job offered, and decides if the whole thing is above board, and whether or not to issue a permit. Offering a position at below average wage for that industry is enough to be refused permission to take a non-national on board.

In general, the use of non-nationals in skilled or unskilled labour has not had a significant impact on salaries over here, simply because it has been policed and regulated correctly.

My point is that it can, and does work.

Dont get me wrong. I firmly believe that the Irish system, as it currently stands, is completely unreasonable and unworkable. No-one disagrees with this really. The question is where do we go from here.

There are thorny issues to be resolved - but I would prefer to see Ireland looking at successful implementations of policy (such as the Swiss attitude to work permits) and try to implement similar schemes to benefit the country as much as the refugee/immigrant.

This, to me, is preferable to the "shut the doors and keep them out" argument. I believe in humanitarian aid, and in concepts such as immigration (being an immigrant myself, at present!). However, I do believe they should be taken from an intelligent point of view, that tries to avoid creating a second- or thid-class group of immigrants by treating them badly, or which treats them too well and allows too much abuse.

Ideally, I'd like to see the EU get its arse in gear and agree a common strategy, but I realise that this is impractical.

jc

Indeed, if I were an employer I could source Indian IT consultants for 1/10th of the acceptable salary and make a considerable contribution towardss consigning our own indigenous Irish IT personnel to Tesco shelf-stacking. Is this what you want?

Irish IT employers can already outsource pretty much all of their development needs to Indian contractors, based in Ireland or India, at prices vastly cheaper than what they are paying the Irish contractors. They havent done so, despite their being an increased number of Indian companies touting for such work.