give refugees and assylum seekers a break!!!

dathi1

immigrants will take up the same jobs that the Irish took when they emigrated. Have we become so selfish after taking so much?

Jezus...I'm startin my own Politic Party anybody wana join?

Policies: Right..ish..
Strict immigration control.
More emphasis on Irish Culture and Heritage.
The Irish Language to be taught at pre school level.
No more violent crime on our streets.
Anybody who beats up old people in their homes gets military camp for 10 years. Better Penal service.. Military Camp. cheap but very effective.
Throw Unions out of the Health Service.

other stuff: Left..ish..
Legalize Cannabis. Decimalise Heroin. Heroin drop in clinics etc..
Reform Garda but make it better equipped and accountable. Positive discrimination for women in the dail.

Cork

Try to show them the same compassion

The Irish nation does show compassion.

Many Irish nurses, doctors , accountants and teachers have worked with ASPO in the 3rd world.

I don't support a brain drain from the 3rd world.

This country has spent much on the third world.


If you go to the US without a visa - you will be deported.

Deporting people from countries is pretty common.

But when Ireland deports you have liberals in our media going crazy about it.

These liberals have not much support and their views are very predictable.

You only have to look at their atitude to the Afgan situation.

They really love victims.

How are the afgans getting along in the Cuba prison? etc.

Try to show them the same compassion

Von

Originally posted by dathi1

Strict immigration control.

No more nig nogs, chinks, brits, mad muzzies or protestants. We DEFINITELY don't want this class of character...

More emphasis on Irish Culture and Heritage.

Not enough talk about the famine and the 800 years of despoilation and persecution by the brits these days at all. Lower legal drinking age to 4 to encourage more "craic" production. Build a Newgrange in every town. Reintroduce clan system and elements of brehon law. Clapping like a spa and squealing "Yeeeeow!" and "Hup! Ya boya!" at cultural events to be made compulsory.

The Irish Language to be taught at pre school level.

12 odd years is just not enough. Nobody allowed leave school until they can recite a selected passage from Ulysses in Irish. Backwards. Anybody caught speaking foreign to be fined, jailed or beaten up casually.

No more violent crime on our streets.

Introduce sunset to sunrise curfew for pedestrians.

Anybody who beats up old people in their homes gets military camp for 10 years. Better Penal service.. Military Camp. cheap but very effective.

Give hardened psychos and undereducated angry youths more comprehensive weapons training and improved hand to hand combat techniques.

Throw Unions out of the Health Service.

And encourage nurses to enter the prostitution industry on part time basis to top up incomes.

Legalize Cannabis. Decimalise Heroin. Heroin drop in clinics etc..

Make ireland the EU's sole hotspot for europe's beleaguered living dead community.

Reform Garda but make it better equipped and accountable.

The more guns gardai are given, the greater the chances are that one of these days they'll shoot someone who's actually dangerous.

Positive discrimination for women in the dail.

I'm all for bitch equality, but no.

Blade

Originally posted by Blade Yes thats great but it was on someone elses land and it was for their own people not for Nigerians and Eastern Europeans. Slight difference there I think.

Originally posted by vorbis
what do you mean? Because they're black they can't work well?
Its still relevant to refugees. The fact is if you have jobs vacant, however menial, they need to be filled to prevent an economy stagnating.

You seem to be loosing the plot here vorbis. What the hell are you trying to make out I said? You using Israel as a comparison to our situation is ridiculous. You were saying that Israel took in a million refugees and it worked out brillo for them and I replied that the only reason they could do that was because they took over someone elses land to put them all into! So you think we should do the same? Where do you suggest we fit a million refugees? Maybe we should take over the North and put them all in settlements up there?

And the other thing I said that you tried to twist was that Israel didn't go to all that trouble to take in ALL refugees, they only did it for their own people (The right of return). They didn't take over Palestinian land to fill it with Nigerians and Albanians.

Cork

Palestinian land

People in Ireland talk alot about Palestinian land - They are very anti Israel. Do they talk about the horror of suiside bombings? Do they talk about the dancing in the streets after September 11? There are 2 sides to this story - yet why are we getting just one side?

Hell No.


Refugees are given alot when they arrive. Housing, food, healthcare and due process. If they are unsuccessful - they will be deported.

What is wrong with this?

Absolutely nothing.

Blade

Originally posted by Cork


People in Ireland talk alot about Palestinian land - They are very anti Israel. Do they talk about the horror of suiside bombings? Do they talk about the dancing in the streets after September 11? There are 2 sides to this story - yet why are we getting just one side?

Hell No.

You have a problem with the words ' Palestinian land '? I'm sorry but thats exactly what it is I'm not going to change the wording because you have a problem with it. If you want to discuss the Middle East conflict you should read up on one of the many other threads on this forum. You might learn something while your at it.

Refugees are given alot when they arrive. Housing, food, healthcare and due process. If they are unsuccessful - they will be deported.

What is wrong with this?

Absolutely nothing.

Have you even read any of this thread? Thats not what people are complaining about. The system doesn't work as simply as you make it out for a start, only 1 in 5 deportation orders signed by the minister for justice have actually been implemented. They reckon that to date there are 3,500 people out there who were served with deportation orders who've been avoiding the police or who have gone off to a different country to chance their arm there.

Sand

Heres a novel solution to peoples racist/nazi/neo-capitalist reactionary issues with asylum seekers (aka economic migrants by some clearly secretly nazi commentators). We take in as many asylum seekers as we can find, and in exchange we send them long haired, middle class communists ( think of it as taking one for the team, well all get a round of heinos to see you off roight - in a way, *youre* the lucky one to escape this nazi police state in Ireland). this will counter any shouts of "invasions" as the overal population will remain the same as it would have been.

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by Cork



The Irish nation does show compassion.


I don't support a brain drain from the 3rd world.

This country has spent much on the third world.


Deporting people from countries is pretty common.

But when Ireland deports you have liberals in our media going crazy about it.

Are you after a gallon or wha?

I was saying "compassion" should be shown to IRISH people who have lost their jobs as a result of inward immigration. So, like, we're in agreement!

Von

Originally posted by Sand
Heres a novel solution to peoples racist/nazi/neo-capitalist reactionary issues with asylum seekers (aka economic migrants by some clearly secretly nazi commentators). We take in as many asylum seekers as we can find, and in exchange we send them long haired, middle class communists ( think of it as taking one for the team, well all get a round of heinos to see you off roight - in a way, *youre* the lucky one to escape this nazi police state in Ireland). this will counter any shouts of "invasions" as the overal population will remain the same as it would have been.

If it came to it, that's a scheme I don't have a lot of reservations about but problems will arise when attempting to categorize people. Straight away anyone who has voted for labour, the shinners, the greens or any of the other insignificant lefty parties can be denounced as communists. But then the FFers and FGers will denounce each other and use civil war anecdotes to back up their claims.

That just leaves the PD's.

Mary Harney would make a silly dictator.

It's much easier to engineer a confrontation with the prods up north while the brits are off bogged down all over the world due to TWAT, then slaughter them or encourage them to leave and then divide their land and property between nig nog and romanian immigrants.

vorbis

views on who owned what have nothing to do wiuth my argument. For the record, I do believe that the Israelis effectively stole the land. The point is if you have a surplus of jobs, they should be filled to prevent stagnation. Not everyone can be an IT consultant or whatever. A lot of Irish people nowadays simply don't want the ****ty jobs. What immigrants had is a greater desire to succeed. Thats certainly lacking in Ireland. How many great entreprenurs do we have. How many fundamental industries like cars or software are Irish. How come the irish abroad have been more successful than those at home?
I never suggested we take in a million refugees btw. However, an influx of around 200,000 refugees would help stimulate our ailing economy.

Blade

Originally posted by pro_gnostic_8
I was saying "compassion" should be shown to IRISH people who have lost their jobs as a result of inward immigration. So, like, we're in agreement!

Do you seriously know any Irish person who has lost their job to a lesser paid immigrant? You know if they were unfairly dismissed in this way they can take their employer to court and assuming that Irish person was a good employee they would definitely win. However I have personally never met one Irish person whos lost their as a result of immigration. I'm in the catering industry for over 15 years and I've found that Irish people don't want to work late nights or at weekends and they're generally unreliable and have more interest in getting pi$$ed than in their jobs. Don't get me wrong we've had some great Irish workers too but they're few and far between, why do you think employment agencies are making a fortune over here bringing workers over from Eastern Europe? It's not because they're cheap labour because they're not, they end up costing you more than an Irish person because you have to provide them cheap accommodation which means having to subsidise it for them and you have to pay the agency. But the thing is Irish people won't work in these types of jobs. We've had notices up for years in FAS and in newspapers etc and yet very few Irish people came forward.

Burger king in Coolock bought a 5 bed house especially to house their foreign employees, I don't think I've ever seen and Irish person behind the counter and yet coolock has a fairly high unemployment rate and they constantly have ads out for jobs.

Blade

Originally posted by vorbis
views on who owned what have nothing to do wiuth my argument. For the record, I do believe that the Israelis effectively stole the land. The point is if you have a surplus of jobs, they should be filled to prevent stagnation. Not everyone can be an IT consultant or whatever. A lot of Irish people nowadays simply don't want the ****ty jobs. What immigrants had is a greater desire to succeed. Thats certainly lacking in Ireland. How many great entreprenurs do we have. How many fundamental industries like cars or software are Irish. How come the irish abroad have been more successful than those at home?
I never suggested we take in a million refugees btw. However, an influx of around 200,000 refugees would help stimulate our ailing economy.

Sure but it has to be controlled properly thats the whole point, loopholes like the baby scams just have to go.

Cork

Do you seriously know any Irish person who has lost their job to a lesser paid immigrant?

Yes - There are sectors where this is happening. I know one specific case where budgets have to be met & foriegn nationals are being employed to achieve this.

When I was making the point about compassion - I was making point that Ireland has done much for the third world.

We've had notices up for years in FAS and in newspapers etc and yet very few Irish people came forward.

The IT industry is in turmoil. I know many IT graduates working on construction & burger joints.


The economy is in slowdown. The Celtic tiger is gone. Unemployment is rising here.

Sure but it has to be controlled properly thats the whole point, loopholes like the baby scams just have to go.

loop holes need to be closed and people who have not been awarded working visas need to be quickly deported.

I think that after exhausting due process - such people should be deported.

Cork

However, an influx of around 200,000 refugees would help stimulate our ailing economy.

Ground control - calling Major Tom

The Celtic Tiger is no more - Unemployment is rising.

200,000 refugees would help stimulate our ailing economy

There is no logic here. There are no labour shortages in Ireland. There is very little industry in the BMW region. Cork and Limerick are very quiet jobswise.

How many fundamental industries like cars or software are Irish.

Car manufacturing is consolidating. We don't have one as we don't have steel.

Software - we have Microsort, Intel & Dell - But I surpose these are not major enough for u.

vorbis

those companies are American built by American entrepreneurs !!
Besides they are also footloose and will movie when something better comes along. My ppoint, which you so aptly confirmed, is that no major industries are Irish. As for the influx of refugees, theres always people that say unemployment is rising at all times. Those are the same type of people who argue for protectionism. Economics wise, a country onlt moves in 2 directions backwards or forwards. It doesn't stay still. Arguing for no immigration is effectively trying to keep the economy at the same spot. It doesn't work same as protectionism doesn't work.
As for losing your jobs, ever hear of the EU law that states an EU national must be hired for a job before a non EU national.

Sand

If it came to it, that's a scheme I don't have a lot of reservations about

I knew we could rely on you Big Brother

Straight away anyone who has voted for labour, the shinners, the greens or any of the other insignificant lefty parties can be denounced as communists.

And wholl miss them? Personally i feel sorry for the poor bastards wholl have to listen to them in the third world. Mind you they dont always hold free speech so dear as we do in our nazi poilice states so they may end up executed/tortured/vanished etc etc- a perfect world, eh:) . Id count the shinner voters as terrorist sympathisers but its all the same in the dark i suppose - Mandela was a terrorist as well so obviously the IRA were just misunderstood political agitators struggling for a society where wed be judged by our character rather than the colour of our skin.....

That just leaves the PD's.

Mary Harney would make a silly dictator.

Not according to the toliet graffiti left by arts students Ive seen. The PDs are nazis you know, so they should have a knack for dictatorships

It's much easier to engineer a confrontation with the prods up north while the brits are off bogged down all over the world due to TWAT, then slaughter them or encourage them to leave and then divide their land and property between nig nog and romanian immigrants.

Will this mass immigration/assimilation of non orthodox catholics sit well with the racist/nazi/neo capitalist minority though Von? What will the pope say? Unless he gives the say so Im sternly against any dealings with the heathens - beyond burning them at the stake of course.

pro_gnostic_8

Originally posted by Blade


Do you seriously know any Irish person who has lost their job to a lesser paid immigrant?

I'm not saying that an Irish person is fired from a position on a Monday and a non-EU is hired on Tuesday. It's far more insidious than that.

An example of what IS happening is that seasonal workers are not being re-hired for the following season. Check out the staffing of most holiday hotels and you'll be hard pressed to find any Irish workers. Every foreign worker in employment means one less job for Irish people. That is an indisputable fact no matter how any argument to the contrary is dressed up.

You refer to Irish people not applying for jobs in the catering industry. I note that you specify Dublin....... an area where employment is still buoyant. That is not the case in rural Ireland. And you have to ask are the wages in this sector too low to attract anyone but the desperate. A high pool of available labour keeps the wage levels in a society at a low watershed. IBEC and tight employers are delighted with this influx of cheap foreign labour but unemployed Irish people most certainly are not.

vorbis

Um, those people takimg your jobs have to live in this country as well. How is it then that they'd be able to survive on far less money than the rest of us. Are they living under a bridge?
One other thing, I'm also from a pretty rural area, there was never that many jobs to begin with.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Yes - There are sectors where this is happening. I know one specific case where budgets have to be met & foriegn nationals are being employed to achieve this.

It should be pointed out that this does not answer the question which was asked. You were asked about people who lost jobs. A hiring policy does not lose jobs, unless people are being fired in order to hire new staff. As was pointed out, if fired employees can show that they were let go for nothing more than the existance of a cheaper alternative, then they would win a case of unfair dismissal.

It may be correct to say that in certain areas, employers are hiring foreign nationals in preference to Irish because they are willing to work for less. To that, I would say "so fscking what". Its called business. Given two equally valid options, you choose the cheaper one.

When I worked as an IT contractor, one of the things which got me a lot of work was that I charged about 1/2 the price of larger companies for the same work. Why did I do this? Because I knew that it guaranteed me work at the time, and also meant that when the crunch inevitably came, I would be more likely to retain my contracts, at the same prices because I wasnt fleecing the customer when I could have....and the customer knew this.

Was I wrong to do this? I dont think anyone can seriously say that I was. I made a good living out of it, but I wasnt fleecing the market for every last cent I could get.

Would it have been wrong if I wasnt actually an Irish person? If I had a legal work permit, then there is no non-racist grounds to discriminate against me for simply being cheaper than the opposition.

A few years ago, employers in Ireland were screaming for a larger workforce. Now there is a surplus of workers, what do we see? Blame the foreigners. Its their fault we have unemployment. I suppose we should look to kick out all those people we asked to come here as well. They're taking our jobs too.

Or maybe they're not as convenient a target.

jc

JarJar blinks

5,000 Asylum Babies born in Irish hospitals recieving Irish citizenship and that was only last year.


Now can anyone tell me how many "Irish" are born in a year?

You'll be shocked, and the word invasion will seem somewhat fitting

Von

Blade is making the most sense.

Originally posted by Sand

Not according to the toliet graffiti left by arts students Ive seen.

The fact that you spend your time hanging around public toilets does not come as a major revelation.

As a liberal, I fully support your right to pursue the lifestyle of your choice (no matter how distasteful or perverse it may be) and make a living any way you can as long as noone else gets harmed etc.

vorbis

are the babies going to take up swords and drive you from your homes?
Besides, thats only one loophole. That can easily be fixed with legislation. Its not part of the wider issue.

dathi1

are the babies going to take up swords and drive you from your homes?

You gobsh.ite... The fact that "Assylum Seekers" are flocking here to abuse this loophole in our law is was pizzez most Irish people off.

bonkey

Lads - keep it a bit more civil please.

jc

vorbis

I won't start a flame war over this. As I said before, its only a loophole and can easily be fixed. Even still, its hardly an invasion. The fact remains theres a lot of ****ty jobs (eg MCDonalds, the one near me has the notice people wanted spray painted onto the window) that Irish people don't want. Whats wrong with economic migrants filling those. Besides, theres STILL thew law which means an Irish guy MUST be hired before a non EU national. How much more job protection should you get?

dathi1

) that Irish people don't want. Whats wrong with economic migrants filling those

absolutely nothing provided they use the appropriate channels to enter this country.

Lemming

Originally posted by vorbis
are the babies going to take up swords and drive you from your homes?
Besides, thats only one loophole. That can easily be fixed with legislation. Its not part of the wider issue.

Actually ........

For every child born to "asylum seekers" (read "economic migrant defrauding the state for the most part), there is at least one other person, so for every baby born, the figure is in reality 10,000. What many of these people are then doing is bringing their families over too, so that figure mulitiples again

I have heard from a reliable source (senior civil servant - unnamed for obvious reaons) that some 94% of all applications are refused since they do not fall within the lines of the UN convention on refugees.

That speaks volumes.

cujimmy

Now can anyone tell me how many "Irish" are born in a year?

about 1/2 million (american, aussies etc )and would you have a problem if they claim citizenship and come "home" and took "all the jobs"

vorbis

the reason a lot of people come in here seeking asylum is because we unlike most countries have NO system for economic migrants. The irony is that some of these would be useful. Its hard to say they're defrauding the state when they want to work and the state won't ecen let them !!
A better idea would be to have a proper work visa system that is not just a closed shop for Irish ex pats. Also if you've been following the news, you'd know that a judge ruled that the birth of a baby in Ireland was not sufficient for the relatives themselves to stay in Ireland.

Lemming

Originally posted by vorbis
the reason a lot of people come in here seeking asylum is because we unlike most countries have NO system for economic migrants. The irony is that some of these would be useful. Its hard to say they're defrauding the state when they want to work and the state won't ecen let them !!
A better idea would be to have a proper work visa system that is not just a closed shop for Irish ex pats. Also if you've been following the news, you'd know that a judge ruled that the birth of a baby in Ireland was not sufficient for the relatives themselves to stay in Ireland.

*sighs*

Vorbis .. I'm not treating you like a fool. I am telling you of one of the more popular "guaruanteed access" ways for these people to get into the country (up until recently at least).

THEN I gave you a statistic of the number of asylum cases rejected, and WHY they were rejected.

Tell me where, in that post, I was treating you like a fool? :rolleyes:

Oh .. and btw .. the reason why so many come here is because we are seen as a soft target by comparison to most other European states who have a generous welfare system.