Broadband Evangelism

Hannibal_12

Originally posted by MrEnvy
Rubbish. Flat rate broadband is a higher priority for the majority of people on these boards or perhaps even the majority of people you know but *not* the priority for the majority of people in the country.

I'm sorry you feel its rubbish, I dont. Personally several people I know realise the situation with ADSl & cable and in turn several of their friends etc....,
You also misunderstood what I said, the majority of people should have and would want it over 56k any day if a) it was flatrate and b) they knew the advantages of it over 56k access and of course it was reasonably priced. The only reason it is not a higher priority is beacuse as you say some people dont know about it.
There are alot more technically savvy people here than there are members of this board. I myself have felt cheated by the slow and expensive internet years before I ever found out about IOFFL and there are so many more out there who have never heard of IOFFL.
Flatrate is suitable for your mother but is it suitable for so many people that are under time constraints to get things done, downloading even modest files for presentations, projects and a multitude of other things takes an age on slow analogue modems,flatrate doesnt change that and it never will.
I also dont see a sudden huge upsurge in demand for broadband when people all suddenly get flatrate. I dont think its going to happen, why would they pay for broadband when they are happily surfing away at 56k, which would seem will be the speed in Ireland ad infinitum. How long will it be then before we get widespread broadband, another year, two years, three years. How far behind will we be then compared to other countries?. Flatrate should have been around for the last number of years but it hasnt been and I believe broadband should now be pushed.
I could write all day on this but I wont, I'm not saying any more in the hope something will be done about broadband in Ireland within my lifetime, i.e in the next ~60 years.

MrPudding

Originally posted by Hannibal_12


I'm sorry you feel its rubbish, I don’t. Personally several people I know realise the situation with ADSl & cable and in turn several of their friends etc....,
You also misunderstood what I said, the majority of people should have and would want it over 56k any day if a) it was flat rate and b) they knew the advantages of it over 56k access and of course it was reasonably priced.

I did not misunderstand what you said. I stand by what I said. I agree that people would take broadband if it was flat rate and if it was cheap enough. The problem is getting it cheap enough. We can't even get DSL for under €100, how long do you think it will be before we get it at a rate that low or no income families can afford it. In order for broadband to replace flat rate dial up (assuming we ever get it, but you can use the UK as an example) it needs to be cheaper, preferably the same price. Like I said, I my mother could get DSL for £6 per month by God she would have it. People will not pay extra money for a service that they do not need. This would be the conversation with my mother...

Me- Hey mum, you should get a DSL connection.
Mum- What's that?
Me- It's a super fast always on connection that has a fixed cost every month.
Mum- What would I need that for?
Me- You know downloading s**t and stuff.
Mum- But I've got that dial up thingy.
Me- But this is much faster!!
Mum- So what, I've got plenty of time, I only download a few mails and do a bit of surfing.
Me- I know Mum, I appreciate that you do not download music, movies or software, I also know that some months you probably don't even spend £6 worth of time online and that you have absolutely no need for a DSL connection but you real should get one.
Mum- OK son, if it is the same price as what I'm paying I'll get it.
Me- Hmmmm

This conversation would then descend into a very sad display. I would be crying screaming "You don't know how good you have it, I know people what would kill for the options you have" Then mother would pull me to her breast and murmur softly "it's OK big son, maybe in a few years you too will have affordable broadband.

This is the problem Hannibal, not every one needs a broadband connection. I know your argument “They just don’t know they need it.” But that is wrong, believe me some people actually do not need or want a broadband connection. We have to deal with the fact that it will be many years before we have broadband at such a low price that it is a viable option for people who do not actually need it. In the meantime we can try to get broadband at a reasonable cost, i.e. low double figures, for the people who actually need or want it. At the same time we cannot forget the people who don’t want or need it. They need help too. They need someone fighting their corner so they can get a product that suits them. That’s what it comes down to; different people have different needs. We as a group have to look after them all.

Dustaz

Good to see this topic is still provoking a bit of discussion.
Anyway, a few points.

Xian, ill take just one of your Italian deals:

AUP 9: €103.5/month - minimum 63 hours/week connection

103 euros a month? for 56k? for only 63 guarenteed hours?
For 107 euro a month i get 168 hours at almost 10 times the speed of that deal. This is in the most backward country in europe as regards connectivity too. Admittidly this services isnt available everywhere, but that goes back to the point about trying to stimulate rollout. I wouldnt call that scheme an innovative pricing scheme. It is by no means alone either.

MrEnvy, i can quote a few conversations that actually happened. My dad, recently inducted into the wired world has taken to it quite well. OK, he takes about half an hour to work out how to send an email, and longer to sort out any attachments he needs to print out. This leads to big phone bills. Really big (hes completly hooked).
Me: So how much was your last bill
Dad: hehe, almost 300
Me: hahahahahahahahaha, welcome to my world, i warned you. Its ridiculous isnt it.
Dad: Yes, why is it so expensive.
Me: *explains flatrate*
Dad: yes, that would be perfect, but how do you manage, your always on the net and you dont pay that much
Me: Dsl
Dad: .......
Me: *explains dsl*
Dad: REALLY?? Ten times the speed? NO CHARGES? give me that please, can you sign me up to it
Me: Its 107 per month
Dad: hah, forget it.

Hes now forsworn lots of internet time and shouldnt run up a huge bill again (time will tell however). I was suprised tho, i always had him down as a flat-rater, but he was significantly more interested in ADSL once he knew about it. He has asked me about it a few times since.

A mate of mine moved to the Canary Islands last year with his gf (native canarian). They got a house near las palmas and did all the normal furniture and decoration things. Brian rang up the local telco to get a line in. I should say that hes not a techie type person in any way, like most people he uses email and looked at the odd webpage.
Brian: Hi, can i have a phone line installed?
Senor: Yes, It will cost X (sorry, cant remember) amount for installation and X per month.
Brian: Fair enough, when will you be round?
Senor: Sir, will you be accessing the internet much?
Brian: Yes, im an expat, so ill be checking it quite a lot
Senor: Why dont you consider ADSL, 200 euro installation and 30 euros per month after that for the benifit of etc etc etc
Brian: Great, Ill have that thanks

So there he is, on a volcanic rock in the middle of the atlantic ocean with a better DSL package than in the e-hub of europe. He had never heard of it before that phone call. I asked him was there flat rate availble to him, his answer was, and i quote :"Oh yeh, um, i think so, but who gives a toss?" (he went on to shout something about high speed porn, but thats irrelevant )

Let me amend my stance once more. We do need a flat rate product, and we do need it now. However, for the first time in a long time im hopeful of seeing it coming. The wheels do seem to be in motion with the EU's investigation and Esats upcoming package.

We need to start working NOW to insure that in 10 years time there is noone writing on a forum like this saying 'Yeh, 10 years ago there was a broadband push, it sorta died there tho. How long will we have to tolerate capped 1meg connection when they have 2 gig fibre in america and europe'.

Hannibal_12

So there he is, on a volcanic rock in the middle of the atlantic ocean with a better DSL package than in the e-hub of europe. He had never heard of it before that phone call. I asked him was there flat rate availble to him, his answer was, and i quote :"Oh yeh, um, i think so, but who gives a toss?" (he went on to shout something about high speed porn, but thats irrelevant )

I know I said I wasnt going to reply to this anymore, but dam thats funny. "The E-Hub" of Europe Vs a Volcanic rock in the middle of the ocean and who's more advanced?. Hmmmm, sunshine,women,drink & ADSL, Off to the airport, bye.

I also agree with everything you say, word for word. I too could quote so many conversations with people that are the exact mirror of what you posted. Its a shame that access to such a resource like the internet is stifled by greedy businessmen more intent on lining their own pockets than providing any kind of decent service.

Xian

In case you thought I'd admitted defeat on this one, I've been busy making a haems of the ISC presentation yesterday (don't ask).

103 euros a month? for 56k? for only 63 guarenteed hours?
For 107 euro a month i get 168 hours at almost 10 times the speed of that deal.

To address your immediate point in summary form (because I don't think it would do any good debating the merits of initial prices of a service - the larger companies are not taking any risks and are standing by in the initial months as the "trial" period goes on)

1. 128 Kbps, not 56.
2. 63 garanteed hours /non contention/ (contention ratio 1:1, geddit?)
3. contention ratio of 1:4 (the contention ratio in the UK for ADSL is 1:50)
4. Static IP

Innovative? I think so. Flat-rate as we know it? Not a bit. If you want flat-rate as we know it you pay €29.17/month for off-peak access. And before you pan this figure as well, please read , carefully, to see how what is being marketed in the UK is unsustainable at best and plain false advertising at worst. The services offered in the initial rollout of flat rate in Italy are both sustainable and transparent.

Can we leave it at that? It's going to be a stale discussion otherwise.

Lets get down to the crux of your point:

If telco's were to pull the finger out and start rolling out a bit more, the heightened availability and lower pricing would mean more and more people would have the oppurtunity of moving to broadband. If that were the case, what becomes the selling point of dialup? Telcos would find thier larger dialup customers gone, and would need something else to make it attractive. A FRIACO situation would take care of itself surely.

In fact there is a country in the EU that has done exactly as you describe: Belgium. I was talking to David Taylor of Esat at the ISC meeting, who was just back from the public drubbing of telcos that was the LLU summit in Brussels. Funnily enough, Belgium came out of the whole thing smelling of roses. They have the second lowest-cost ADSL in the EU (€29/month 1Mb uncapped) and no flat rate. Guess what? We're battling it out with them at the lower end of the intenet penetration scale by April 2002 figures, both of us struggling to hit the mid thirty percent. Meanwhile the Netherlands (low-cost ADSL + friaco) are up to 60% and the UK (medium-cost ADSL + friaco) is at 50%.

Your serve, Dustaz.