Any word on today's Eircom/Esat/ODTR "flat-rate" meeting?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by crawler
I wouldnt say evidence as such but as far as I know the information is correct....I'll let you know when I hear anything myself....

OK, I'm really not trying to get at you, but would mind just giving some reasons why you think the meeting might not have taken place, or that it might have been about something else. It does not have to be hard evidence as such.

PiE

Or even let us know how you came to have such intimate knowledge of the supposed double-booking.

aidan_dunne

Yeah crawler, some more substantive evidence of the meeting not happening than "as far as I know the information is correct" if you would, please.

Seeing as David said he talked to some ODTR people in Brussels who said the meeting did take place sounds a lot more convincing than "as far as I know." Do you have any substantive evidence that the meeting did not 100% never took place last Tuesday, crawler? If you do, I think you'd better share it with us.

BoneCollector

I have learned and can confirm the following..
There was a meeting on July 9, at which Esat and Eircom attended and believe there is a further meeting scheduled.

I dont know when..
so it looks like there is no conclusion yet. (hope this helps)

Depending on the wholesale price 1892 could be done by the telco's based on long off-peak calls - but this very much depends on the wholesale price of 1892 access.

As you will agree, this is stil far from Fraico as it is not 24/7 access and would be still limited to off peak. This will not stimulate growth in the e-business in ireland since business is closed off peak.

Come ON BEAM!
(the future is wireless, lets get rid of that ball and chain Errscom)

Dangger

The second meeting is mid-week, this week.

crawler

I just got this info too - it was just Eircom and Esat - but there is another meeting with other carriers on the same issue - unless Eircom are meeting with carriers seperately? Does anyone know?

1892 - I still have my doubts on this one - there never has been rates published for 1892 so who can tell what will come out of it; Given Eircom's history on price negotiations , I am not holing my breath.

Get the finger out guys - FRIACO is what is needed , not half hearthed efforts at insane prices.

crawler

By the way , in case it looks like I am contradicitng myself - My original comment on 1892 , was just my way of having a guess at what Telcos might be thinking, not my own opinion as such.

BoneCollector is right - 1892 is NOT FRIACO and is only half useful(ish)

aidan_dunne

Okay, so we have now got confirmation that the meeting took place last week and, according to David, another one is scheduled for this week. However, has there been 100% absolute confirmation that FRIACO/flat-rate is the issue that was/is being discussed at these meetings? They could be meeting about something totally different entirely (as I suggested before in my "wild conspiracy theory" they could actually be meeting to discuss how to tie up the market between them and sort out how they can continue to rip-off everybody as much as they can!) and could be just saying they're meeting about FRIACO. Until I get 100% confirmation that flat-rate is what they are discussing (through any means possible; transcripts/notes from the meeting, a press release from both parties confirming this or CIA-style bugs planted in the room! lol) I will stick to my guns and say that I still think they're conspiring between them and these meetings are not about flat-rate at all.

Am I starting to sound paranoid now?

SkepticOne

Originally posted by aidan_dunne
Am I starting to sound paranoid now?

I don't think it makes business sense for the negotiations to be about anything other than true FRIACO because this means that companies can design their own off-peak and 24/7 packages and allows access to the Eircom network on a proper capacity rather than timed basis.

Of course, if the conspiracy theorists are right and the companies are there to form a cartel with Eircom and this is all being done under the supervision of the ODTR in their offices, then we are all well and truly ****ed.

Everything I've so far heard, leads me to believe it is proper FRIACO they are discussing, but it is still early days and things could easily go wrong.

aidan_dunne

Originally posted by SkepticOne
.....but it is still early days and things could easily go wrong.

Jesus Skeptic, don't say that. You could end up jinxing it and we sure as hell don't need that!

What we do need, however, is true, proper FRIACO offering both businesses and residential customers 24/7 access. And we need this ASAP. There can no longer be any bull$hitting around anymore. In fact, we are lagging so far behind now it's getting ridiculous. I just said we need FRAICO ASAP but, to be honest, we needed it twelve months ago or more.

If Eircom screw up these negotiations I think the ODTR and the government should just say, "Okay, f**k it, we've had enough of your bull$hit!" and just pull their licence altogether. Bring the network back under the control of the government and, as I read somewhere else here once, get the army or someone else in to run it. I'm bloody serious, folks, because that network is ours. We, the taxpayers, built that network out of our taxes when the government (Telecom Eireann) owned it and for these little pricks to come along and think they can do whatever they like with it and dictate what goes on in the market is wrong. If it hadn't been for our money paying for it, they wouldn't have a network to control right now.

You'd better f**king listen up, Eircom! That network is the rightful property of us, your customers. And right now we demand flat-rate so give us what we want, you ba$tards! :mad:

Sorry folks, I can get really worked up over this at times. I'm off to take a Valium and have a lie-down!

Dustaz

we needed it 12 years ago, not 12 months ago

Plus, i think Eircom would argue with you about ownership of the network. They own it, Valentia paid the old shareholders for it. Its thiers not ours

aidan_dunne

Originally posted by Dustaz
we needed it 12 years ago, not 12 months ago

Plus, i think Eircom would argue with you about ownership of the network. They own it, Valentia paid the old shareholders for it. Its thiers not ours

But the point I was really trying to make is that if it hadn't been for our taxes they wouldn't even have a network to control and they wouldn't even be in business if it wasn't for us. We might not own it but, by God, we paid for it and they should show us a little appreciation for all the money we spent in putting them into business and give us something that we really need as perhaps a little gesture of "gratitude" to us.

vampyre

Aidan
I totally agree with you about the fact we paid for the bulk of their network. And to be extremely repetitive, Mary bloody O'Rourke should have included a clause compelling social responsiblity in the remit when eircom was privatised. I believe the regulator even suggested this. But no, the answer was competition will take care of everything. Well competition has been more or less taken care of and in many ways the irish consumer has lost, and lost big. In fact is there even one positive acheivement. The voice calls were only lowered to compete with esat, have they done anything at all for us. It's not charity, we will pay for services, for God's sake just provide them halfwits.
The Vampyre departs for a glass or two of blood. Meanwhile Eircom feast on the flesh harvested from its captive prey.

aidan_dunne

Originally posted by vampyre
It's not charity, we will pay for services, for God's sake just provide them halfwits.

Agreed vampyre. I said before that it's not as if we're looking for totally free internet access or anything. We are willing to pay a reasonable price for a flat-rate service, say €25 per month. We're not looking for a free meal or anything.

Neither do we expect Eircom to drop the current per-minute pricing model. Despite flat-rate being introduced in the UK, the per-minute model is still also in operation and is ideal for those people who only use the net occasionally or for people who want to get online for the first time and just check out what the internet is all about but don't want to sign up for a subscription until, perhaps, they've gotten used to it and explored the potential of it a bit more. The flat-rate and per-minute models can exist side-by-side and each are useful for different people so, as I said, it's not like we are asking Eircom to introduce flat-rate and completely dump per-minute. All we are asking for is some choice, some choice to decide which pricing model works out best for each individual. I mean, there are dozens of different tarrifs to choose from when it comes to mobile phones, why shouldn't it be the same for internet access?

Eircom, please wake up and realise this!

jd

The proceeds from the sale of the network are residing in a (decreasing) pension fund afaik.
There was a pretty strong argument for eircom to be split into infrastructural and retail companies, with the infrastructural side being retained by the state. I think it was a case of dogma winning out..
Social responsibility should be the responsibility of the government really...

qwertyup

Did anyone else see the figures for DSL in the papers recently? The had the total connections to date as 1100, with 1000 on Eircom, and 100 on Esat.

Is it just me, or are those figures absolutely abysmal, and can Eircom not see that with a lower price point they would surely be able to rack up more than that paltry number of users?

The_Bullman

with those figures won't Eircom just say.

Look we told you that there was no market for broadband in ireland. I think that we will leave the rest of the country in the state that it is in.

aidan_dunne

I agree with both qwertyup and The_Bullman on this.

Firstly, if the figures qwertyup gave are real (and I reckon they are) then Eircom are really going to struggle to recover the massive amounts of money they say they spent in rolling out DSL because the take up is so low. They would be much better off charging less and attracting more customers than what they are doing at the moment. This reminds me a bit of the old Soviet Union philosophy of where instead of having several small factories making cars, clothes, other goods, etc., they used to always have one great big factory. However, if that one big factory burnt down or something they were royaly screwed. Eircom seems to be making the same mistake with their pricing and, as a result, the take up of DSL has been very poor and they are really going to struggle to recover their investment.

Secondly, The_Bullman made a very valid point and one which I've suspected for a long time (okay, here we go folks. Another of my "wild conspiracy theories"! lol). With the take up of DSL being so low it is very possible that Eircom will say, "Look, we told you there was no market for broadband in this country. Therefore, we're not going to bother our ar$es expanding the service outside of Dublin because no-one will want it and it will be just a waste of time and money." Yet, Eircom can never admit that it is they who are in the wrong, that the take up is so low, not because of a lack of interest, but because of Eircom's ridiculous pricing. They can never admit that they got it wrong and, just like Soula Evans' comments at the seminar last year about flat-rate, they'll continue to use the excuse of there being "no interest" and blaming the customers, never themselves.

You know, I'm starting to wonder if Eircom actually wants DSL to be a success because, from the way they're going about it, it sure as hell looks like they don't.

Eircom, please wake up and smell the coffee for f**ks sake!

PiE

Originally posted by SkepticOne
but it is still early days and things could easily go wrong.

Could go wrong? This is Ireland we're talking about, of course it will. :[

SkepticOne

Originally posted by aidan_dunne
You know, I'm starting to wonder if Eircom actually wants DSL to be a success because, from the way they're going about it, it sure as hell looks like they don't.

But a successful DSL service would mean people are no-longer paying a fortune in metered dial-up and ISDN charges. They have to look after the bottom line, after all.

SkepticOne

Originally posted by qwertyup
Did anyone else see the figures for DSL in the papers recently? The had the total connections to date as 1100, with 1000 on Eircom, and 100 on Esat.

According to the article, it is even worse:

Figures obtained from the two operators show Eircom has made 800 DSL
connections - a proportion of these are former DSL trial customers -
while Esat has connected just 100 customers to DSL.

The low take-up places the Republic among the least connected states in
terms of broadband connections.

Like I said earlier, this is more of a problem for the country rather than Eircom. BTW, we are also the least connected countries in the EU for ordinary dial-up according to the last quarterly review from the ODTR.

aidan_dunne

Well, with facts like that Bertie and his gang can shove his whole idea of Ireland being the "E-hub of Europe" right up his ar$e, can't he? :mad:

vampyre

Nobody flame me, I don't hate football and although I have $ky I am far from happy with them acquiring the rights to irish footie. But to put it mildly Mr. Ahern our taoiseach has gotten himself into a frenzy on this issue. Lawyers, and attempts to compel a private company to ditch an economically sound deal and put the irish people first. But say it about eircom, that they are hurting people right across the board and you are told that it is unthinkable that government should attempt to interefere with the commercial decisions of private enterprise.

kamobe

That FAI thing has nothing to do with Eircom!

There's a reason why we've the lowest connecticvity ratios in europe.......

Obviously we don't really want broadband, cause if we did, we'd all sell our cars and take up I-Stream. Eircom have clearly proven that there is no demand for Broadband.

On a completly un-related issue, how many ppl have taken up ntl's cable offer in Tallaght?

Keep us updated with respect to these alleged meetings IOFFL :cool:

MrPudding

Originally posted by kamobe
That FAI thing has nothing to do with Eircom!

Vampyre's point is a good and valid one. I know football is the national game and blah blah blah but it doesn't really rate too highly in the economic outlook for the state. At the end of the day it is a f**king game. Bertie is working himself into a fit over this. Get your f**king priorities straight.

Now, if the headline in next weeks indo reads "Massive multinational company pulls out of huge investent in Ireland. CEO of the company is quoted as saying "We feel our needs would be better served in a country where international football matches are screened on terestrial TV" I will gladly withdraw this comment.

Get a f**king life, sort this monopoly out and do something that will actually benefit the country in the long term.

MrE

Lemming

T'is all rather gloomy looking. But a couple of things spring to mind.

Firstly, regarding the take-up of DSL services, how long was it before the masses took up 56k dial-up all those years ago? How long before the masses took up ISDN? My point is that these things DO take time to filter through to the brains of the joe-bloggs-I-don't-have-a-breeze. Eircom are, unrealistically, looking for a swamping of calls for DSL.

ANd on top of their ludicrous pricing, this isn't going to happen. Who remembers, even a few years ago now, ISDN being (even more )insanely priced? I'd love to have seen Eir-Coma's figures for that, and yet they stuck with it. Why, if there was no demand??

Furthermore, DSL is very much new, and is still in the process of roll-out, coupled with a shamefully slow and disorganised installation schedule.

AND on top of that again, Eir-Coma have shot themsevles in the foot with their unashamed use of DACS to expand their network. There may be 10000 people looking for it in area 'X', but only 100 might be eligible, so how can they turn around and say there's no demand?

Short-Sighted Tossers ..... in fact I'd go as far as to say that a Bat has better sight.

vampyre

I certainly never said the FAI debacle had anything to do with eircom. My point was policies are skewed here. By all means if footie can be restored to the masses it should be done. My point was the govt are prepared to go to any lengths to intervene on one issue yet claim such a thing is not possible in relation to others. I am not saying right or wrong, just inconsistent, though obviously I feel intervention is necessary. I often feel intervention with an uzi is required.

Dangger

Obviously we don't really want broadband, cause if we did, we'd all sell our cars and take up I-Stream. Eircom have clearly proven that there is no demand for Broadband.

Hang on there.....Eirocm have also said that the current I-Stream product is aimed at business. They have only just recently flooded business with Hi-Speed (ISDN), they have made a mistake in that regard.

The argument that there is no demand for broadband is not won until an affordable product aimed at the home user is made available. However, the overall Irish use and understanding of the potential of the Internet has been stunted due to the clock watching and slow speed.

I feel that there will have to be some serious thought given into bridging the gaps in overall demand if it holds to be true when a mass product is released. Otherwise we'll get left even further behind, the ever declining numbers of IT related graduates will continue to leave on droves and of course the goverment new under used e-government portal that cost a fortune will be gathering dust making them look even more inept.

kamobe

The Gov are right to react about the footy the way they are 'tis one thing that joe average actually CARES about. If they turned around and forced eircom to release DSL for E50 a month, only a few thousand ppl would take note of it. Whereas with the footy, the whole nation is going nuts over it.

vampyre

'tis one thing that joe average actually CARES about.

I do not care about football. I like it and enjoy it. I care that I am fleeced for rental and net charges from eircom. I care that my local excellent hospital's facilities are being closed. Sort out the footie, but is the whole war cabinet attorney general etc. scenario really neccessary. get a grip on real life. And if our charming taoiseach had enacted the relevant legislation it couldn't have happened anyway so all the concern is merely a smokescreen for more govt. incompetence.