Is gaming nothing like it used to be

phobos

TBH I am sick and tired of playing games. Don't get me wrong I'm not saying you won't catch me playing games again. But I'm definately saying that with all these new consoles, and highly tweaked PC gaming machines, we don't have enough good games to keep us interested.

I think the best time for games was back with the C64, SNES, Amiga (definately). But after that games have become more and more boring as time has gone on. I went out and bought a PS2, waiting a year for the hype to die down, and some good games to be released. Since that console was released I've only really enjoyed MGS2, but it was waaay too short, & Resident Evil. On the PC there was Half Life & Deus Ex. I'm not that interested in FPS compeditive games like Quake and Counter Strike, because people just get too caught up with competition IMO. Personally I'm crap at those games, but I don't give a damn, because I prefer games where I can sit down, do some thinking, and solve some puzzles in my own time. On the other hand, I like driving & a select few fighting games

But my arguement and point to this thread, is not what games I think are good IMO (blah, blah). It's rather the fact that not enough games are catching my attention anymore. There is nothing on the PS2 horizon that catches my eye. The only game on the Xbox that does anything for me is Halo. The game cube doesn't have anything to offer me.

I dunno have my standards been raised to high, or am I just missing the hype. I loved waiting for MGS2, because after the first one (which I loved also), I knew I would be looking forward to the sequel, and it served me well. But to me, it's like the gaming industry is standing still while people finish the current batch of games.

There are of course games like Doom3, and the new series of Unreal games. But to me they will just be fancier versions of what we have today. The people who play Quake3 etc, will just be moving on to those games. They will be the new games played at LANs. and so on.

Can anybody see reason to my rant?

;-phobos-)

PPC

IIRC 1999 was the year of the game with HL, Q3 and UT.

Dont be at yourself

I must disagree. I would say that things are picking up for games - the next generation of consoles has made for great games that would have been impossible to realise otherwise (see GTA3, and potentially Blinx). Games are certainly offering more now than they were two or three years ago.

And we're seeing more originality with the likes of Rez, Ico, Super Monkey Ball and the various japanese games Eidos are releasing - it would appear that the industry has realised that the public don't just want to be drip fed identikit sequels (hell, even the new Tomb Raider looks half-decent!).

I can see where you're coming from though. The summer is a really slow time for games - and currently there is practically nothing of any interest coming to any of the consoles for at least a few months.

DRakE

Imo games are getting better. Better spec computers can handle better gfx etc so the player becomes more emersed in the game.

There were times even in Half-Life where i literally didnt move coz i was scraed a head crab would jump out of a box or crumble through the roof.

If a game can make you so scared as that you dont WANT to move, then they must be doing something right. Games like Bubble Bobble and Kirby didnt scare me that much.
I swear

phobos

Originally posted by DRakE
If a game can make you so scared as that you dont WANT to move, then they must be doing something right.

I agree with you 100% there. But I still think there aren't enough games out there that will do that kind of thing. Silent Hill 2 put the ****z up me the first night I played it, and I was impressed. But that was the only thing it did for me.

But as regards back in the dayz, the games were'nt realistic enough to trigger an emotional response through our senses. But back then we didn't look for that kind of thing. In this day and age, where that kind of gaming experience has already been introducted, we do!. I remember the best days of my life with my mates, playing Monkey Island, Fate of Atlantis, Curse of Enchanta(sp?), Mario Cart. I had a look at PC Gamer this afternoon that shows exclusive screenshots of Quake 1. It made me remember how excited I used to be about game releases.

Today we have machines with are capeable of wowing our senses, but they might not be good games. What makes me wonder, is that more money is even being thrown in to advertising, and games, are becomming and accepted past time (even in Ireland). But all that hasn't made it any better for people like myself, who remember the days, that it was like a drug.

Jaysus, maybe I'm immune

;-phobos-)

Shinji

You've changed. Gaming hasn't. Right now games are just as exciting and interesting and innovative and enjoyable as they ever were... But some people stop enjoying them and start enjoying other stuff. That's okay, it's normal, sometimes you get bored of any hobby.

Don't blame gaming for your lack of interest though.

Of course, there's always the point that games ARE more mainstream now - so your interest isn't cool and cliquey any more. Everyone in the office has a PS2, not like when all the kids in your class used to come round to your place to see the latest SNES games...

PPC

Originally posted by DRakE
If a game can make you so scared as that you dont WANT to move, then they must be doing something right.

Try AVP2 then as the Marines. As the Aliens or Preds it ain't to bad cause ya know you can rip a Marine to shreads but as the Marines you have the bloody motion detector and anything that moves goes bip and scares the sh|t outta ya

phobos

Originally posted by Shinji
You've changed. Gaming hasn't. Right now games are just as exciting and interesting and innovative and enjoyable as they ever were... But some people stop enjoying them and start enjoying other stuff. That's okay, it's normal, sometimes you get bored of any hobby.

I think you're right Shinji

Perhaps this thread isn't about "Is gaming nothing like it used to be". Maybe it's about how a person, who all his life, for as long as he can remember, lived in a world so involved with computer games suddenly became bored with all of it. This boredom was unknown at first, and the subject took it out on the way things currently are. Hoping that someone will agree, and keep him in the game, but I'm beginning to think my time has passed, and I'm moving on. Twas good while it lasted

I have to admit the thought did cross my mind before, but I didn't want to have admit to myself that I've (hate to say it) "outgrown" all of it.

The rest of you take note, it may happen to you too at some stage, and maybe you'll just start doing other things, or maybe you'll go in to denial. Who knows, but what I do know is that it's strange, and it's something I never thought would happen. Christ when I was 16-19, I spent all my time around games, but now that I've ventured a little deeper, I find it hard to be amused anymore. Tis a shame.

I hope that some future titles will amuse me, and give me something to do for a period of time, but that only happens about once a year now. Feck

;-phobos-)

Tellox

imho, Gaming has only gone uphill after the invention of the fps. Its a damn shame there arent more 2d games being made though.

If you want scary, Take PPC's advice and go AVP2. Great fun at a lan... I'd hear Cabaal's "ah!" as I leapt past him at the last lan... then of course, he blew me to hell 7 different ways...

I cant wait for the gamecube resident evil. If its anything near as good as the first, im in for a few nights of sleeping with the light on

phobos

Originally posted by Tizlox
I cant wait for the gamecube resident evil. If its anything near as good as the first, im in for a few nights of sleeping with the light on

That's a game that I loved. The earlier ones more so. I had the directors cut of the first one, and then paused my life to play the two characters in the second. I can actually remember when the first one came out, and I stood inside Game on Grafton St, playing it on the BIG screen just inside the door. There must have been 20 people standing around me in awe of it's sheer excellence.

But the GC version, however it does look sweeet, I can't see the game play being any different. Also it would be the only title on that console that attracts any of my attention. To me, right now, one game is not a good enough reason to by a console. I've seen so many people go out and buy consoles for just one game, and then they throw it aside (like my PS2) to gather dust for ages, until something else comes out that they like. The time gap between titles is nearly catching up on time gap between console generations (which is crazy).

Tis sad

;-phobos-)

Slutmonkey57b

If you like puzzling things out on your own games then you made a big mistake buying consoles in the first place. The consoles are aimed at the new beeerrrrrrrrrrrr'n'curry'n'PS types - not longtime gamers. The titles released reflect that - they're all short - term fixers. The dedicated gamer will exhaust the entertainment in a few days but the average couch potato would take weeks to do.

KdjaCL

Phobos its ppl like you who trying to make games bettter these days,which is good thing
there is some cack out but there always has been ,the C64 had over 10,000 titles i seriously doubt they were all that good.
I dont go for that console bashing crap but im sure if i bought any console i would find at least 10 quality games for it.

on PC think im the only one who got the cr@p scard outta me by op flash its just way to tense (save your men or hide ) i chose hide most of the time
And for good old time gaming ,there is nothing being chased by the FBI in GTA3 for good oul fashioned fun ,kinda like the last level in bubble bobble,or getting chased by the "screen" in a C64 game (some will know that feeling )

We all are looking forward to some game ,me its Age of Mythology and Battlefield 1942.
Doom 3 to me looks a serious investment in hardware that i can do without for the time being.


kdja

I have to say lads, that, while games certainly are becoming more life-like and realistic, there's not that many games now that I can honestly say would REALLY excite me.

I'm looking forward to the next gamecube resident evil game...it's a remake but it looks REAL...i can't believe that, that's the type of game now that would instill an emotion, it's a scary game with a great plot.

But i'm thinking of the early 90's, where on the PC we had shareware, like commander keen, cosmo, duke nukem (the original one), crystal cave...the list is endless, they were the type of games that you got, played and truly enjoyed. The simple ones.

Now you've got games which require weeks of effort, to get into.
Long gone are the games that, within five minutes, you could say you truly had the hang of it.

Adventure games were my most favourite pc games, like monkey island and the indiana jones games...where are those type of games now? the point and clicks (apart from broken sword), the parser games (where you typed in the commands ie. space quest)...they're gone. They were good.

Gaming has certainly lost something...I think we play them now in expectation of something greater than games were ever meant to offer. Expectation has risen, games excitement has lowered.

The_Bullman

i agree that things alway seem to look better when you think back on them. Like i remember having a great laugh playing Harrier Attack on the Amstrad CPC 464. To play it now it would seem like pants. Quake also. I remember the first time i tried to play it online. God how bizarre it was. trying to get frags with a huge ping well over 400 at least. Thankfully i didn't do it for long. Then halflife came out. Personally i don't think that any game will be able to eclipse that ever for me. Those fecking crabs. Sheer class.

The game that i miss more than halflife is a x-wing vs tie fighter type of game. I loved that game. Now maybe i am wrong but i have yet to find a flight sim that had its equal. Rogue squadron is an insult compared to it.

Ah bring back the good aul days

Tellox

As a vivid RPG'er myself, I can get all those retro rpg's that are out over the net in seconds...I forget the site for it now, try search for Don Miguel RM95 RM2K

Doodee

Phobos, It depends on what your into, and also, do you have the time to get really involved in Games, especially when its legal to drink.

I bought an X-box only a few months back, I got JSRF on it and played that for a while before having to give it up to do meh L.C.
afterwards I ordered Halo for it, when it arrived I remember playing it for 3-4 days straight in Co-op,my friend and I completed the Game, and now...theres nuffin really to do wiv it, thanks to the bad Multiplayer system in it (dont get me wrong, co-op is brilliant, really good if you've only got 1 mate round). As for JSRF, I may aswell throw it in the bin cause its really boring and repetitive. Afaik, I should save up and buy DOA3


AS reguards Res evil, and you loving it, maybe cause it frightened you so much u just had to play it, or maybe you just havent played enough games.
what I mean is, get yer ass up to Kens, and borrow some of his Games, do the same with andy, myself and Dav, and also Don-coleman,sit yerself down with a favourite beverage, and snack, and just try a few, theres bound to be 1/2 that youlike and will get into, and if that aint enough maybe that competitivness of CS might work, try n challenge any of yer m8's by seeing if u can finish the game before the rest of us and such...some times you just have to be imaginative.
/me feels that he is ranting again.

anyways, why not get yerself into the collage, browse around, and download a few movies of games.
I'd reccommend "The Thing" (taking on from the film) and definitly "Battlefield 1942"

ahh well...sometimes u may just have to let go...and then...we can start calling you pops :P

phobos

JP, TBH I think I've played my fair share of games. Christ man I'm sure you can remember the Amiga days when we did nothing but swap stuff. But you're right about the Res Evil thing. That game gave me another reason to enjoy games (twas scary, which I loved). There's nothing like an atmospheric game that has you hoping to God that nothing jumps out of that closet. The Res Evil series was definately a big one with me, and I loved the story line and everything.

Someone mentioned about buying a console being a no-no considering my tastes and age. I agree to a point, but I still think consoles have the best driving games. I know a lot of people didn't like the Wipeout series, but I did. I owned them all, and got pretty good, in that I bet everyone (for a change). I loved the speed of it, the soundtracks, the futuristic city scapes. Psygnosis(sp?) used to bring out some real crackers in their day.

As for games that you sit down and think about, the PC 0wns. But that's purely down to the general game's interface. Monkey Island 4 came out on the PS2 after the PC, and I often wondered if it would do any good, considering that it was originally a point n' click adventure. But then again I don't think I'd like to play Res Evil on the PC. I remember the PS controller being a very suitable and user friendly controller for manouvering the characters, navigating menu's etc, at speed.

But JP as you said, you finished Halo within a couple of days, and

As for JSRF, I may aswell throw it in the bin cause its really boring and repetitive

I know what that's like.

I find myself renting out console titles from Xtravision quite a lot, and I've still to find a game that I actually like. Perhaps 1 in 20 I would consider buying. I've rented games, brought them home, and an hour later, thought "damn, I'm bored". That's not good.

Then again, maybe I'm just being unfortunate and missing the good ones. I will admit I haven't bought a dedicated games mag in quite a while. I have a very extensive computer magazine collection, which I've collected over the last decade. It's nice to flick back every so often and relive the hype of past games that you've perhaps finished. But today everywhere I look I'm seeing titles like

Super Jet Fighter 4
Grand Turisimo got a flat tyre 2
Airblade & numberous other scateboarding type games (Oh how I hate sport games like Fifa, championship manager).

These kind of games are finished in an afternoon. Such as Airblade, which my brother bought, and I got in to very quickly based on how well it was programmed. Jaysus they made a good job of that one (did you see how quick it bloody loads). But having said that it was nothing like the stuff I'm used to. A lot of todays games don't give me a reason to skip eating/sleeping/etc.

Interesting points so far ppl cheers. I would like to think there is still stuff out there that will keep me entertained, but I just think too bloody hard (& expensive) to get the same buzz as I did years ago.

;-phobos-)

BKtje

imo games are as good as they ever were.
The thing is that original games are hard to find and many people get bored of playing a load of games that are very similar apart from the slightly varied storyline.

eg in the past we had a game like wing commander privateer which i believe at the time was an original game type. (still love that game. pity it wont play on my pc )

or Resident Evil started the survival horror (could be wrong) of that format gametype. There been many games like it. Extermination to name just one.


Some people like the same old game with pumped up graphics and gameplay while others look for a whole new original game type .

Spunog UIE

agree with nearly all above but one thing that i think has fecked games, is the ability to save them, back in the day when the best you could hope for was a pw, now that fecked with ur head and upped the tenension in a game, ya practicially learned the levels off by hearth so you could progress, your hands sweated and gripped the controller fearing that ya were gonna "die" and have to start alllllllllll over again. I think it was something good that the orginal Alien Vs P did, and it made that game even better, but then they realised the patch, makin ppl lazy again, if its there u'll use it. I guess the save allows everyone to progress in a game and not just the ones willing to spend ages on them, and so allowing them to sell their games to more people, reducin the nerd factor.

Gid.

DapperGent

Originally posted by The_Bullman
The game that i miss more than halflife is a x-wing vs tie fighter type of game. I loved that game. Now maybe i am wrong but i have yet to find a flight sim that had its equal.

Try Conflict Freespace 2 its as close as you're going to get to X-Wing Vs Tie-Fighter and a damn fine game.

On topic I feel the same way as phobos, games don't really involve me the way they used to although they still use up an awful lot of my free time (Civ 3 and Warcraft 3 most recently and my continual addiction to CM and Day of Defeat) nothing really grabs me the way Elite did the first time or Mariocart or Zelda.

I don't think this has much to do with the quality of games being produced more that when you're younger you're more apt to get stupidly into things and enjoy them in a far more involving way. It's the same as band fandom, I like listening to music but I haven't bought a t-shirt since Mellon Collie and the Infinite Sadness or OK Computer.

It's all one of the great irritations of growing up your enjoyment no longer comes in discrete purchasable packages, fun has to be more holistic and usually involves girls. Unless of course you've just scored some really good coke.

Retr0gamer

I have to say that the quality of games hasn't changed since the 16-bit era. All the classic 16-bit games are just as good as todays classics.But i've recently gone back to some speccy and C64 games and they aren't as good as I remember. in fact most are pure ****e. The only platform that seems to have gone down hill is the pc but this is mainly due to raven software churning out too many average games too quickly. But even this platform seems to be coming back to its original glory with the release of Warcraft 3 (LAN has never been so much fun! Well not since starcraft anyway.)

phobos

Retr0, anytime I try and go back to play those games that brought the best memories for me, I think the exact same. They come across as pure pants (especially the 8/16-bit ones). But that's bound to happen, because it doesn't matter how much we say the gameplay is more important over multimedia quality, it does have a serious effect on us. If a screenshot looks crap, we mightn't be as inclined to give the game our attention. There may be people reading this and saying "no way". But I am one of you. I am the person that things gameplay is the most important, but it's only now when I look back, and become dissapointed that the old games can't do it for me in this day and age.

B-K-DzR, you were close with regards res evil starting the survival horror genre. Before that was the Alone in the Dark series, which IMO is res evil with fancy graphics, and a better storyline. The first time I played Alone in the Dark back on a cutting edge 386 with 4megs RAM, I was scared ****less. I loved it. So just to prove it was actually possible to trigger an emotional response (such as fear) with primitive graphic techniques.

I just seemed to play much more games back then. Stuff like Another World, then Flash Back (Fade to Black was pants). I've been exposed to modern gaming development methods, having completed a dedicated module for my B.Sc.. We talked about things like VR, and really took a next generation approach to how things will be done, and are being currently researched. It all sounded fantastic, but I still think we're in the wrong country to fully understand the true meaning of an emerisive gaming experience.

Somebody hit the nail on the head IMO, that the quality of games is definately getting better and better, but originality is dropping. A lot of the games we find today, are too similar with other games in their genre, only having a different story line to go on, or perhaps a better 3D/Sound/AI engine (which I think is something that the end user shouldnt' be bothered with). How many games have been based on the Quake engine (too many I think). Every single one of those games plays exactly the same. It's like I'm playing a mod for quake (taking Elite Forces in to consideration).

I suppose my problem is that I'm looking for originality, and I'm not getting it as much as I used to back in he nineties. Take worms for example. That was a class game, but I remember a similar game with two military tanks on either side of a 2D scape which featured on a Amiga Format cover disk, years earlier. Can't remember what it was called, but it's originality, and gameplay had me and a mate hooked. Then worms came out, and it was like they took the small tank game, and made something huge out of it.

Somebody else mentioned Elite, that's the kind of stuff I'm talking about. Those were the games that caused a stir, and seamed to get us more excited than the games today do. It's like I've been spoilt with all these fantastic new titles that are out today, that i can't find something that I'm happy with. If it was 5 years ago, and I saw the likes of what we have today, I know I would probably wet myself with excitment. But when it's all around you, and very business driven (ie why are all new games looking like Quake, and other popular FPS titles?, ANS: Because it's a proven formula). But surely they anticipated that people would become bored with all of that, and request that something more original would be developed.

;-phobos-)

Slutmonkey57b

The big thing with games today is the change in business ethos. We still have guys who sit down and think "This would make a kick ass game" (eg homeworld) but back in the day that same guy and a couple of mates could have put the thing together themselves. Modern game production bears no resemblance whatsover with the way it was before. The time between idea and production is now two years typically - unlike the 3-6 month home code jobs of the C64 era. Look at the credits for a modern game, and the range of expertise involved. The amount ofstuff that can go wrong in the time is ridiculous.

Shiminay

Ever think about that fact that you're getting older...

Dcully

Well guys ive had every console so far axcept for Gamecube.
They each have a handfull of good games ,but once you complete them thats it no replay value,the few exceptions to this are Footie games like PES on PS2 .
Six years ago i purchased my first PC and was stunned at the quality and longevity of pc games.
I now have a very high spec machine and its simply stunning.
I love racing sims and have raced many online leagues with various games and continue to do so.

Im in a Medal of honour and counter-strike clan and regularly have clan matches,
This is what you call getting the most out of a game,The list goes on,i havent even mentioned the hundreds of mods ive downloaded for ,Halflife,Return to castle wolfenstein,Medal of honour ,Quake 3 ,unreal tournament,Operation flashpoint,Ghost recon .

I only have one console now and thats for the great Pro evolution soccer on PS2 which is great with ur mates around.

If you guys want value for money games buy a good PC,the online capabilities of multiplayer games is infinite and to me playing, shooting and racing at/with AI characters just doesnt cut it compared to large numbers of real people online,Yes consoles have linkup and split screen so-called multiplayer games but ask any online player its no comparison.:)

phobos

Originally posted by Kharn
Ever think about that fact that you're getting older...

TBH that is the first thing that crossed my mind. But if you look at society in general today, it's not uncommon for people of all ages to enjoy and regularly play computer games. My step-father has his own selection of PS2 games (mainly platformer stuff, coz that's what he likes), and his own gameboy.

The way I look at it, I'm not bothered about having a top spec PC to run games, but I'd expect to play games regularly on a machine specifically made for games (ie consoles). I got a PS2 a while back, and I've personally bought 3-4 games since then. I've finished them all, and head in to Smyths & Gamesworld (in Galway) nearly every time I'm in town to see nothing, but the same games on the shelves for weeks on end. Medal of Honour seems to be all the rage lately, on every platform. I will admit, I liked the game, but I'm getting back to the tired concept of FPS games (it's just another RTCW game to me). That's the way I look at it, and I know many of you will differ, because the games are soooo bloody popular.

Somebody mentioned Homeworld a few posts back, and I will admit, I wasn't a fan of strategy games, but the first time I saw that I nearly wet myself. The soundtrack and the way it ties in with the feeling of deep space made this game a big hit with me, and this is even before you start playing. Another reason it attracted me is because I never actually had an interest in strategy games (such as C&C), but there was something about this game that changed that. For that I'm grateful

But I suppose I can sit here, and continously share my opinions of the current state of affairs, but at the end of the day, I think ye're right, maybe it's because I'm older now, and I'm looking for something different that I simply won't find in computer games

:: and no it's not p0rn ::

;-phobos-)

-oRnein9-

I must dis agree look at the games coming up in the near future "UT 2003" "UT2" "DOOM3" C&C Generals" + "Warcraft 3" to mention just a few are you mad man.

tman

i'm having more fun playing all my old snes games on snes9x than i've had in a long, lon, long, long, looooong time, (bar gta3 that is)
it seems that all modern pc games are good for is multiplayer, roll on doom3 and vice city...

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

This is a bit of a rant- people who know me irl have heard me spew this before, so to them, my apologies :P

Speaking as a PC gamer, the focus of games has changed a little, not much mind you, but just a bit. In the halycon days of the adventure game, and then the LucasArts(tm) adventure game, a game had to make its way on more substance than the average FPS. Now don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Doom tremendously, I still think it's the smoothest FPS ever made in terms of playability- but the thin plot does get wearisome, what with Doom II, Quake, Quake II, Quake III, Duke Nukem(though that game was super super fun), UT and so on. Half-Life gave us the FPS with a modicum of plot, Max Payne bullet time, Serious Sam was a brilliant throw-back- but the adventure game has largely been priced out by "cost-effective" FPS's. Shooters sell better- I fully expect a hypothetical game which allows you to murder your teacher/boss as a plot theme to easily outsell something like Grim Fandango.

This isn't necessarily bad, but a somewhat disturbing trend is surfacing. The EA sports titles for example- marginal improvements here and there, relying on sporting gravitas to sell a game which should be valued on its game model, not whether there's a world cup or not. Not to mention the huge splurge of brainless edutainment- none of which are fit to lick Castle of Dr. Brain's boot-soles. Games like Wolfpack, Pirates, Monkey Island, all were ages ahead of their time. In fact I'd argue that there hasn't been a better naval action/adventure game since Pirates. It had a brilliant 2-D combat system, which included dueling, naval gunnery, land-based assault. The plot was flexible and open-ended, educating the player about privateering etc- it was just amazing. The basic problem is that I feel that certain gaming companies are, with the increase in popularity of games, taking gamers for granted. Now this may or may not actually be the case, but I'm certainly not alone in this respect.

On the plus side, gaming's never been more fashionable, and it's now ok to list it as one of your hobbies. In fact, a friend of mine studying ophthalmology mentioned he enjoyed online FPS gaming, and far from chastizing him about how physicians are supposed to spend their free time...it counted in his favor, hand-eye coordination through a computer interface is becoming increasingly important in ophthalmic surgery. Jobs in the computer industry have been boosted a lot by the popularity of game titles, and with the amazing advent of online gaming, it's possible for gaming communities to flourish on the net. I'm not whining(or at least not excessively :P)- just expressing the hope that gaming companies don't take gamers for granted, and pay more attention to a game's design. Eye candy is increasingly important, but it isn't everything.

Occy

Shinji

Occy; faraway hills are always greener, frankly.

Even when you're looking back at 'em through rose-tinted spectacles, oddly enough.

Metaphor mixing aside, I don't think you've presented any actual evidence that games are getting less innovative or clever. You mention the EA Sports titles - which, I agree, are nothing more than cash-in moneyspinners with no creative merit.

However, do you honestly think the countless cloned film-license platform games churned out by Ocean, US Gold and so on during the 8-bit era were any better? Of course not - it's just that now you've forgotten most of them, just as you'll have forgotten the very existence of EA Sports' 2002 FIFA World Cup in a few years time.

Yes, PC games have become more derivative. That's because the PC market is harder to sell a hit title into so companies take fewer risks on them. Hence you get shelves full of utter rubbish like Soldier of Fortune 2, which bring nothing of value to the genre or the platform but still sell well.

Most true innovation happens on consoles at the moment, mostly due to the fact that publishers are more willing to take risks there - and, of course, the fact that the Japanese market exists in console gaming, and is MUCH more open to innovative concepts. Do you honestly think that any of the adventure titles you've mentioned (which, frankly, are dead for a reason - they've evolved and been absorbed into other gaming genres, because they were an evolutionary dead-end as they stood) are more innovative or clever than Rez, Jet Set Radio, Blinx, ICO, GTA3 or Pikmin?

Bob the Unlucky Octopus

Originally posted by Shinji:
Metaphor mixing aside, I don't think you've presented any actual evidence that games are getting less innovative or clever. You mention the EA Sports titles - which, I agree, are nothing more than cash-in moneyspinners with no creative merit.

Originally posted by Shinji:
Yes, PC games have become more derivative.

If a game fails to be innovative, it tends to be derivative. So presumably by your own admission, if PC games have become more derivative, they are generally speaking, less innovative. I agree with the assertion that the console market is the main area of innovation atm- that's probably because you have 4 consoles competing for titles, so there's an industry pressure to do bigger and better things. The PC games market tends to be more loyal, but less dynamic (just look at the people who buy EA sports titles, and every single Dynstar Panzer game).

However, do you honestly think the countless cloned film-license platform games churned out by Ocean, US Gold and so on during the 8-bit era were any better?

Of course they weren't, I think I bought two of them, which is half as many FIFAs as I've ever bought. My point isn't that games these days are crap- merely less ground-breaking. Every era has absolutely sh1te games(I remember Mahjong from the days of old), but at the moment it would seem that games with linear plots are everywhere. A game like Daggerfall just couldn't be made these days, no one would have the requisite attention span to explore everything. There are still good games being made, but many suffer from Episode I syndrome- too much eye candy, not enough substance.

Do you honestly think that any of the adventure titles you've mentioned (which, frankly, are dead for a reason - they've evolved and been absorbed into other gaming genres, because they were an evolutionary dead-end as they stood) are more innovative or clever than Rez, Jet Set Radio, Blinx, ICO, GTA3 or Pikmin?

Invalid question- I was arguing the stance of PC games- the majority of the games you've mentioned there are really only popular among consoles. I have no problem with console games these days- they've come along leaps and bounds, we both agree that the most exiciting games these days are by and large made for consoles. My favorite single-player games of late are all console ones: Vagrant Story, FF X, MGS II, Virtua Fighter 4, etc. PC games have taken a nose-dive of late.

I'm not just lamenting the departure of the pure interactive adventure game. Where are the Karatekas, the King's Quests, the Descents, the Wing Commanders and the Prince of Persias? Rose-tinted glasses aside, all those series were generally top-notch, no question about it. Those games took risks, and ended up ruling their genres. With the exception of Half-Life and possibly WCIII, PC games haven't done that of late. Every other game seems to be a poor derivative of a successful model- nothing inherently wrong with that, I just miss the days when I bought a Sierra game knowing that I probably wasn't going to be disappointed. These days, one is set up for disappointment for many titles.

I agree that it could just be that gamers' tastes are changing, but then I would argue they are changing for worse, at least for PC gamers. Adventure games haven't reached a development dead-end, Grim Fandango showed that. People are more than willing to buy an average adventure game than an average FPS- unless they're planning a Columbine. An average adventure game holds the attention longer, has a better plot than the shooter, and builds from the story and the characters. There's plenty of room for improvement- adventure games theoretically have unlimited potential- they're only limited by the imagination of the writers. Of course, with graphics hardware being what it is these days it's more profitable to write an FPS with a shadow of a plot than to spend time and effort designing an engaging, funny and interactive plot. There is a market for these types of games for another reason also, retro value. The GBA is selling like hot cakes mainly because of all the fantastic retro games available for it.

My purpose in arguing this is simply to suggest a greater degree of discernment to PC gamers. Perhaps by changing the demand base I can do my part to bring back a bit of invention & pizazz to PC games. Then again, maybe it's just another rant :P

Occy