Govt reintroducing fees on the sly

Lump

Yea, I would like to expand on the Civil servants not being able to get a grant. If I was to go in to college, my mother would automatically be excluded from getting a grant, even though she is on job sharing, because my granny is not well. Also my parents are seperated and my dad has no income at the moment. All he has are his savings. But because my mother is seen to be in a "High Paying job" I would not recieve a grant. All I can say is thank god my prents both put money in to a college fund when each of their children were born. Also thank god they had the chance to save the money. Ahould some one be denied the chance of a profession just because they can afford it? You might say that some one is denied shopping or other amterial goods because they can't afford it, but if a person goes to college and gets a degree, they are going to be paying income tax to the government each year. For example, my mother pays %48 income tax........ So almost half of her wages goes to the governtment, I think that in one year now that she is working as a teacher she would have cleared the cost of the government putting her through college.

The re-introduction of fees doesn't effect me, but I wouldn't like to have worked my balls off for 6 years in secondary school to get in to an engineering degree course, just to find out that I need to be minted to complete the course after carrying it out for a year.


If the do have to introduce this fee, wouldn't it be a better idea to introduce it in three years, so people in college at the moment can finish out their course and those coming up the ladder can decide what to do, either by working and saving, getting a loan, or just not going to college.



John

Cork

If you were a part time student – you have to pay fees.

You are paying taxation providing others with free fees.

We need to encourage participation in 3rd level education. The most equitable way to do this is by our grants system. The maintenance grant is inadequate.

But I concede there is a large burden on familys with more than one going to college. I think that the government could provide interest free loans to these students. The Labour government is doing this in the UK at the moment.

I have a problem with the government hiking the registeration fees. My problem is where does this money go. I think it started off as a payment for examination fees and for student capitation. It now seems to be yet another form of tax.

The government should reintroduce fees while abolishing the registeration fee.

They are many courses in our universitys that are a waste of time and add nothing to our economy.

I would say courses that fail to send participants out into the world without skills after 4 years need to be looked at.

Engineering, Science & Business are fine. A lot of options contained in Arts degrees are not.

many Universities ahve "back-doors" into their courses now through such programmes and courses.

I agree education needs to be opened up. But Free fees consumes a lot of resources that could be used more fairly in an equitable way.

Lump

Havent you just changed you mind completly? The intrest free loans are stupid, some students I am in college with are going to walk out of college with 20,000 Sterling worth of debts, thats not a good thing to have hanging over you.



John

Cork

Havent you just changed you mind completly?

Nope - I've taken your arguements on boards and re-formulated my openion.

I think that the registration fee is defacto fees. I think that in future years this will be increased. This is why, we are debaing the concept of "Free Fees".

I think that the maintenace grant is pretty low. It needs to be increased. But - I think "Free Fees" is not equitable.

It makes it easier for some Super Rich to send their kids to college. Why do part time under graduate students have to pay these fees?

The whole thing is not very equitable or fair. I think the grants system is a fairer methout to target resources.

Cork: you sir, are an idiot.

I have been to college - graduated and am spending my Summer in the Cork riveriera.

Cork

The real cost of a years tuition was estimated to average €30,000 per annum in the Herald this week. Now the students are being asked to pay less than 1% of this cost and they think there getting a rough deal?

They are getting it pretty easy

Despite DCU being 'next door' the % of Ballymun residents (a town of 30,000 people) going to DCU is next to none.

Full college fees need to be reintroduced now & the grants system needs to be reformed to encourage greater participation.

Now the people of ballymun (along with all other taxpayers) are supposed to pick up the tab for those young people who do attend college?

The state paying third level fees makes no sense. It is unfair and not equitable.

I think you should all get interest free student loans, and get the privilige to pay back in full The Cost Of Your College Education to the irish taxpayer.

Makes perfect sense. The grants system needs reform. Many students look to their parents for support. Many students take out loans from Banks. Government interest free loans is the way to go.

Cork

The intrest free loans are stupid, some students I am in college with are going to walk out of college with 20,000 Sterling worth of debts, thats not a good thing to have hanging over you.

It is more stupid expecting the state to support you.

Guess what, your daddys taxes does not pay for your 3rd level education, or even come close

You should never be afraid to pay you way in life.

JustHalf

Originally posted by SyxPak
Name 3 sunshine
In fact, name 1.

Arts.

JustHalf

Originally posted by Cork
You should never be afraid to pay you way in life.

It's rather fortunate that I'm in a (relatively) well-paid job at the moment, or I wouldn't be able to afford the 280 Euro hike. I can afford to pay for these fees.

Imagine if my parents had to pay for all three of their children. That would change the cost from 1170 Euro (excluding University/College levies) to 2010 Euro. An 840 Euro increase, that some families are expected to raise within 2/3 months.

That's just wrong.

The least they could have done is given us a decent warning.

Lump

Originally posted by JustHalf
Arts.

I'm doing media Production, which is an Arts Degree. With out meda production, there would be no Television, no films, no cd's........ So there goes your idea that arts is useless. Got any more?



John

Cork

Imagine if my parents had to pay for all three of their children. That would change the cost from 1170 Euro (excluding University/College levies) to 2010 Euro. An 840 Euro increase, that some families are expected to raise within 2/3 months

Imagine - how much your parents are saving if you all had to go to collegev 6/7 yaers ago.

The grants system may not be the fairest system in the world - but it targets scarce resources. Giving free frees to all is a reckless use of taxpayers money.

I'm doing media Production, which is an Arts Degree. With out meda production, there would be no Television, no films, no cd's........ So there goes your idea that arts is useless. Got any more?

You have completed misquoted me:

i said:

Engineering, Science & Business are fine. A lot of options contained in Arts degrees are not.

Ring up UCD or Trinity and get a list of various arts degrees options. They are some that are as useful as rain gear on a summers day.

JustHalf

Do you or do you not agree that the warning given was insufficient?

JustHalf

Originally posted by Lump
I'm doing media Production, which is an Arts Degree. With out meda production, there would be no Television, no films, no cd's........ So there goes your idea that arts is useless. Got any more?

'tis a joke, like.

beardedchicken

quote:

---

They are many courses in our universitys that are a waste of time and add nothing to our economy.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by SyxPak
Name 3 sunshine
In fact, name 1.

---

Arts.

Ring up UCD or Trinity and get a list of various arts degrees options. They are some that are as useful as rain gear on a summers day.

screw you!! there is absolutely NO SUCH THING as a useless qualification, be it degree, diploma, cert, whatever. how dare you criticise a course that i and many of my friends are working our asses off to get through, with a view to eventually being valuable members of society and the economy. it's all to easy to rag on arts students, but you don't seem to realise the diverse areas of society and industry arts graduates end up in. the list is endless!- teachers, government officials, psychologists, social workers, media professionals, musicians, etc etc all arts graduates!!!!!!!!!!

and before you ask, yes, i am paying my own way through college, with some help from my parents, as i am not entitled to a grant, despite the fact that my father is retired. this means i, like most people, have to have a part time job, to pay for books, transport to and from college, and the rest of the thousand and one different expenses that mount up in our so-called free education system.

Ruaidhri

ok sorry to bring this back on topic for a few mins BUT
do you know why there is an increse?
because the governmant is going to overspend by €900m(according to them it's around €300m i think)
so they are pinching pennies left right and center. there waas €40m taken away from broadband for the next 6 months aswell as other increses.

and who voted these idiots back into power?
us. we did.

that's the short of it(although labour had my vote)

and yes i'm REALLY píssed about the whole thing.but bitching wont change it. e-mail that fúckwit(his e-mail is somewhere on this thread) protest.do SOMETHING.

po0k

I voted independents and greens simply cos there was no-one else to vote for.
FineFáil are a dirty shower of codgers, and Fine Gael are the same, only try to act more like nobs.

The country's going to shíte before our eyes.

Cork

I think that slagging off the present government is petty. The government was elected in open & fair elections. I am not interested - who any of you voted for.

The government has increased registeration fees.

Is this fair?

No. They should have abolished the registeration fee and reintroduced fees. The gap bewteen rich & poor has widened in this country. Why do the "well off" need to be subsidised to go to college?

There is an inequality in third level education. We need to open the third level option to all. Third level education in Ireland was once the preserve of the "well to do".

Paying the fees of such people does not open the system up to all.

There is a grants system for those who have low to moderate income levels. The maintenance grant with these is very low and needs to be addressed.

The whole "ECONOMIC BENEFIT" arguement is a complete non starter - The better off people will continue to go to college (same as they ever did).

Free Fees was an error. I think that we were copying the old British system at the time. They have moved onto loans. I think that the government will continue to increase the registeration fees as opposed to increasing tuition fees. But I think that the should have the courage of their convictions and reintroduce fees.

There is however a very strong middle class lobby group. These people opposed the property tax successfully. They need to be taken on. There is still a very large black economy out there (are teachers who give grinds declaring this to the revenue) - we need a whisle blowers charter.

Free Fees is unjust. It was ill tought out and a waste of scarce resources. If fees are reintroduced the grants system will still facilitate payment of fees for many,

The Grants system is a means test. It is fairer. Free fees is such a waste of resouces that could be spent on new schools, extra teachers of hospitals.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Free Fees was an error. I think that we were copying the old British system at the time. They have moved onto loans. I think that the government will continue to increase the registeration fees as opposed to increasing tuition fees. But I think that the should have the courage of their convictions and reintroduce fees.

Free Fees was not an error.

Before "free fees" was introduced, a significantly larger proportion of students went abroad to study - typically to some British Uni, purely because it was vastly cheaper to do so.

Due to the scarcity in jobs in Ireland at the time, a lot of these people never returned.

The introduction of free fees was an attempt to convince students to stay in Ireland, which would then cause them to look for a job in Ireland, which would ultimately benefit the economy.

To call this a mistake is ridiculous - it was one of the smartest moves a government in this country has ever made in terms of tackling the "brain drain" we suffered by exporting our youth.

As for the current situation...I'd love people to actually show the maths indicating how much better off we'd all be if we implemented the system they propose.

University fees, in Ireland, unsubsidised run to about €10,000 a year. I know, because my GF tried checking study prices for her to come to Ireland and being non-EU, she would be completely unsibsidised.

That would make a typical 4-year degree cost in the region of €40,000, just for the basic tuition and use of facilities.

If we are glibly talking about "no free handouts" and going back to a grant-based system, then lets be honest about it. Lets get rid of all tax-payers subsidies, and go to a €10,000 per year university bill, and figure out how to provide for that.

Now, will someone please tell me how to subsidise that, on a case-by-case basis, in a fair manner which is neither disciminatory to the rich nor the poor, which will not result in Ireland becoming a nation like Switzerland where university is self-funded almost in its entirety, and where only the tiniest of percentages of people actually attend college.

jc

Lemming

Originally posted by Cork

The government has increased registeration fees.

Is this fair?

No. They should have abolished the registeration fee and reintroduced fees. The gap bewteen rich & poor has widened in this country. Why do the "well off" need to be subsidised to go to college?

I've held my tongue upto this point. But Cork, you are for want of a better expression, a f@king idiot, on this subject.

Abolish registration and introduce fees? ALl fine and well in theory .. BUT ...

At what point do you determine "well off". As has been mentioned by many here, the grant system is corrupt and totally unhinged, and those that should be getting the grant aren't because their family members are part-time civil servants, or are retired, or what-not.

Further more ... thinking that abolishing registration and introducing fees and upping the grant system is going to cost you (and me) less in taxes is WAYYY off the mark. They'd need to expand the grant eligibility to take in a larger scope of people, and where do you think that grant money is going to come from?? You and Me. So you're right back to square one, only there's a drop in those able to go to college.

The well-off will be able to do it anyway, and the poorest of the poor (of which many seem to value "education" just below taking a piss over a paying job) are able to go. Everyone else, including you and me, can go take a dump.

The whole "ECONOMIC BENEFIT" arguement is a complete non starter - The better off people will continue to go to college (same as they ever did).

So all those middle-class people who were suddenly able to go and then fill up IT jobs, etc didn't help fuel our economy?

The Grants system is a means test. It is fairer. Free fees is such a waste of resouces that could be spent on new schools, extra teachers of hospitals.

As for the means test being fairer than free-fees ... see my above mention about the grant system.

Cork

At what point do you determine "well off". As has been mentioned by many here, the grant system is corrupt and totally unhinged, and those that should be getting the grant aren't because their family members are part-time civil servants, or are retired,

They are few retired people who are on great income - The vast majority of people who are retired - their sons or daughters will qualify for grants.

Why is the grants system "corrupt and totally unhinged"?

Are people forging P60s?

Course not.

So all those middle-class people who were suddenly able to go and then fill up IT jobs, etc didn't help fuel our economy?

I know many IT people working on assembly lines - FYI the IT boom has passed.

Further more ... thinking that abolishing registration and introducing fees and upping the grant system is going to cost you (and me) less in taxes is WAYYY off the mark

It won't cost much more - It would be a more fairer & equitable system.

You have failed to mention how inequitable paying fees to the well to do is.

The minister who introduced this measure has now failed twice being elected to the Dail.

Lemming

Originally posted by Cork


They are few retired people who are on great income - The vast majority of people who are retired - their sons or daughters will qualify for grants.

Why is the grants system "corrupt and totally unhinged"?

Have yiou not listened to anything I, or more importantly, others have said on this thread already about getting grants?

Several people here have posted their PERSONAL experiences in attempting to get Grants.

I know many IT people working on assembly lines - FYI the IT boom has passed.

So suddenly having an IT trained workforce isn't worth sh*t anymore?

In order to attract, you have to have the facilities, especially in the far more demanding economic environment we face today.

Do you have myopic vision?? I'm just curious.

It won't cost much more - It would be a more fairer & equitable system.

Stop living in cloud-cuckoo land. It's already been spelt out just how unfair and inequitable the grant system is. And you propose that the VAST majority of people in this country are thrown to its mercy?

I wonder what the stats were on 3rd level education before free-fees. That'd make for interesting reading.

You have failed to mention how inequitable paying fees to the well to do is.

Capitalism's a bitch, eh? So you want to punish those who have been successful, whilst stopping everyone else from availing of 3rd level, since only the wealthy will be able to afford it anyway. Yeahh ... that's a great idea.

What do you want to do? Make the well-off pay more, whilst allowing the other extreme pay less? That's called discrimination and ends in unpleasant court cases.

All you're doing is punishing EVERYONE in an attempt to make things more "just".

JustHalf

Originally posted by Cork
I know many IT people working on assembly lines - FYI the IT boom has passed.

* sigh *

No, it hasn't... only most of the nonsense.

Cork

What do you want to do? Make the well-off pay more, whilst allowing the other extreme pay less? That's called discrimination and ends in unpleasant court cases.

All can apply for third level grants. Those who get them are not "poor". They are entitled to them.

Paying the college tuition fees of all in completely crazy.

It's already been spelt out just how unfair and inequitable the grant system is. And you propose that the VAST majority of people in this country are thrown to its mercy?

People apply for grants. They do not throw themselves at the mercy of it.

With the grants system everybody puts in their p60s. It is income related.

Giving free fees is not equitable.

They are few retired people who are on great income - The vast majority of people who are retired - their sons or daughters will qualify for grants.

Being on the OAP Pension will easily qualify for maintenance grants for their kids. People on the average industrial wage will also qualify. The grants system is fairwer than blanket free fees.

Cork

I acknowledge your arguments that the hike in the registration fee should have been signalled earlier. I believe that registration fees will probably end up as a replacement for tuition fees.

But, while agreeing with you on some points. The fact remains that “free fees” is inequitable and unfair. There exists a grants system that caters for a large proportion of our third level population. The maintenance grant element of these grants needs to be improved.

The maintenance grant is based on income. If a household’s income either rises or drops – the grant can either be granted or revoked.

It ensures that grants are given to those who meet certain income criteria. This is fairer than giving free fees to everybody in “Millionaires Row”.

While, in an ideal world – free fees would be great. We live in a society where many primary & secondary schools lack very basic facilities.

Giving free fees is a drain on badly needed resources. Even proponents of free fees must acknowledge that resources need not be used wisely.

Lawnkiller

look at this thread.

politics forum
i think it highlights the current trend of the govt. to attempt to pull money from areas it sees as being undertapped.

people who vote in the currnet govt. are not us - they are party politics voters. FF will always vote FF, FG will always vote FG, etc. but party politics ppl will always try to defend their own.

but back on topic:

there are ppl who cannot or will not be able to afford returning or beginning college due to this fee increase this year. that is bad and the manner in which it was dumped on them is bad. the increase in grants is all well and good for those who can get it but the problem area is with people who can't get a grant but don't have enuf cash for college. the situation has changed under unreasonable circumstances and the govt. are wrong to introduce such a change at this time. as was quoted earlier on - this gives people 2-3 months to save additional cash on top of what they have already had to save to to inflation, insurance premium increases,etc. i know someone will always be left out in the cold whenever the govt. decides to change something for the worse(as it were) but in this case the general concensus is that they are wrong on this one for timing and rate. the only people who could defend such a move need their head and party affiliations examined. they provide subjective instead of objective views which helps nothing(a few mates of mine are currently closet FF supporters - whenever they offer their govt. approved opinion, it just makes them look a bit silly ).

end of rant :rolleyes:

Cork

the only people who could defend such a move need their head and party affiliations examined.

Nonsense.

I believe in a more equitable society. Free fees is a gift to the "well to do". We need a decent grants system.

I really don't care for the whole free fees thing. In a society were the gap bewteen rich & poor is widening - it is a complete waste of resources.

It was introduced as a measure copying the British system. They stopped it - yet we seem to be persisting with it.

Free Fees is a poorly tought out concept

JustHalf

Free fees isn't just for the well to do, it is for everyone.

Lemming

Originally posted by Cork


All can apply for third level grants. Those who get them are not "poor". They are entitled to them.

Ah .... there's a contradiction. If some rich farmer's son or daughter gets a grant ... is THAT fair, whilst the kid who's mother is a part-time civil servant and father is retired is refused and thus can't afford to go to college?

But hang on a second .. you've just said it IS equitable and fair, since the rich farmer IS entitled to it. So the grants system must be really fair then, yes?

Oh .. and that was sarcasm in case you can't tell.

So all that happens is that the gulf between rich and poor which you so harp on about constantly is being perpetuated Cork.

Paying the college tuition fees of all in completely crazy.

Paying for health services for those who smoke drink use drugs etc is crazy too isn't it? Paying for someone else's heart-bypass is crazy as well isn't it? What about paying for the fire service .. since your house has never caught fire. What about social welfare. You don't know anyone on them, do you? SO why pay for them??

People apply for grants. They do not throw themselves at the mercy of it.

Under the current system .. they will be thrown to its mercy, since only those "entitled" to them (and many don't need them) can get them.

With the grants system everybody puts in their p60s. It is income related.

Income related unless you're a civil servant, and a few other professions thrown in there too I'm sure.

Giving free fees is not equitable.

Using your reasoning, free healtcare is not equitable. Why pay for free healthcare for all?

Cork

whilst the kid who's mother is a part-time civil servant and father is retired is refused and thus can't afford to go to college?

" part-time civil servant" must be earning alot. If you are on the average industrial wage - you'd qualify for a job. Working part time - she should have no trouble.

The medical point you made is interesting. Some are on medical cards, some are public patients and some have VHI

Everybody does not claim to be entitled to a medical card.

Giving a medical card to all would be a waste of resources.

Income related unless you're a civil servant, and a few other professions thrown in there too I'm sure.

Income related for all - that makes it equitable.

Free fees isn't just for the well to do, it is for everyone.

Good point - The "well to dos" get it as well. It is an obscence waste of scarce resources.

JustHalf

Back with the "waste" word again.

Can you show how it is a waste?

SheroN

Do we care ?

Please keep it relevant.