Government cutbacks and Price hikes

Cork

I think that the government are making savings in Health & Education to build needless new roads.

They could improve existing roads but this would make tolling impossible.

This is why new motor ways are being planned.

God knows, I am no "Leftie" - but Roads before peoples health & education is crazy.

I know new roads are needed - but many existing roads could easily be improved - thus saving money.

Aspro

Well you're the Fianna Failer. Why don't you ask them why?

Morpheus

What about them cancelling the 5 much needed and relatively inexpensive Search and Rescue Helicoptors for the Air-Corps?

Thats putting more lives at risk, it would also mean we didnt have to hire helicopters and crews from a scottish company to do what the countries bloody Air corps is there for in the first place.

Its a major f*ck up, an embarassment and a disgrace. and as for taking more money of motorists??? they already charge us 30% YES THIRTY PERCENT my friends more for new cars than other European countries, when the EU made them do away with import duty and other taxes on new cars, they simply invented Vehicle Registration Tax or VRT... And thats AFTER we pay 21% VAT on the cars as well (already VAT here is one of the highest rates in Europe)

want to hear the best bit?? NONE OF THE VRT GOES BACK INTO THE MOTORING OR ROAD INFRASTRUCTURE, its syphoned off into other govt coffers to balance the accounts.

Take the price of ANY new car today, now imagine it with just VAT and NO VRT on it??? thats a 30% saving on the price! GODDAMNIT it would pay for your car insurance if your under 30

Cork

There is no justification for massive price hikes & unnecessary and short sighted cutbacks.

A lot of money is being wasted on new roads where improving an existing road will provide similar results.

I voted FF - but I can't see the justification of massive price hikes when we are the 2nd most expensive country in Europe

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
A lot of money is being wasted on new roads where improving an existing road will provide similar results.

Just as a matter of interest....can you give an example of an unnecessary new road being built, and what road(s) could be improved to provide similar results?

I'm not saying you're wrong....I'm just unable to think of any cases myself.

jc

shotamoose

It's a bit hard to point out a road that is definitively 'unnecessary' - someone's always going to drive on it. That's not the same as being good value for money, but judging this kind of thing is exceedingly difficult. In the UK they've got the National Audit Office to judge value for money in government expenditure; has there been anything like that done here on roads?

Cork

OK. There is a new road being planned thru the lee valley in Cork. There is a new road being planned from Mallow to Croom.

They need to build new roads to toll - the existing routes could easily be improved without the building of new routes.

Check out: http://www.sensibletransport.com/


www.sensibletransport.com

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
They need to build new roads to toll - the existing routes could easily be improved without the building of new routes.

Errr - reading that URL you provided produced the following :

Also going nowhere because of the cash shortfall are the Cashel bypass, the Kinsale Road interchange, the Kinnegad- Enfield bypass and the upgrading of the roads between Castleisland and Abbeyfeale and Ballycarthy and Tralee in Co. Kerry

The government cannot afford to upgrade roads at the moment either due to budgetary constraints and the way they need to balance their books for the EU.

The same budgetary constraints which are forcing them into a "if you build, you toll" situation are also applying to a "if you upgrade, you toll" situation.

So upgrading is no more attractive an alternative.

As to why they are building new roads - there isnt a road to upgrade which would serve the same purpose as the Lee Valley project you mention. For a start, all of the existing roads are already highly limited because of the small towns and villages they pass through, which limits their upgradeability. This is typically the problem with these routes - its all very well adding an extra lane along the countryside length, but it achieves nothing if you have frequent towns acting as bottlenecks. Ergo, there comes a time when the most efficient option is not to upgrade the existing road, with several new town passes, but rather to build an entirely new road.

Bear in mind that these roads are not just to meet the traffic demands of today, but rather to cope with expected growth over the next 10 to 20 years.

Unless you can actually show figures about why a road is "unnecessary" in terms of local traffic, estimated growth, and so on, its very vary hard to say that a new road is unnecessary.

Also, given the serious unpopularity the government will face if they have to introduce tolls on these roads, dont you think they'd rather not build them in the first place if they werent needed?

In fairness, the more I look around and read of whats in that website, the less I am inclined to give it much credibility at all. All I can find are complaints about the current work being done on infrastructure. Nowhere can I find well thought out, practical alternatives.

Its not a campaign for sensible transport - its a campaign to complain about the current transport plans.

jc

Cork

While I agree that some new roads will have to be built – The government seems to very gung ho about building new stretches of motorway. The first option has to be improving existing roads. This would be better for both our environment and local communities who have to live among these roads.

While I agree that the Sensible Transport site needs to spell out alternatives – Some alternatives are obvious:

The present government does not intend to build any new rail track under the National Development programme.

Trains will to operate from Dublin to Cork on an hourly basis. There needs to be a direct rail route from Cork to Limerick. A rail link from Limerick to Sligo needs also to be looked at.

Building 4 lane dual carriageways through the Lee Valley makes no sense. Existing routes could be upgraded more cheaply. Introducing Road Tolls is a great idea – if we were not paying VRT or Motor Tax.

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
OK. There is a new road being planned thru the lee valley in Cork. There is a new road being planned from Mallow to Croom.
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Hah, have you ever actually driven from Cork to Limerick?

There are a few sections of the Mallow to Croom stretch that are accidents waiting to happen - notably the winding road from Twopothouse to Buttevant, half of the road from Buttevant to Ballyhea (the lack of visibility in no way stops people overtaking on these stretches) and the section from Ballybeg. The reasoning behind the new road is the same reasoning behind the Mallow-Cork road build mostly in the 80s - the existing road is dangerous. it's not a motorway - compared to some of the more inane suggestions it's fairly cheap. Unlike the proposed Limerick-Nenagh route it's not a 300m-wide corridor. Besides, it's not going to come into effect for some time, partly because no-one can decide what side of Buttevant the by-pass is going to be put, leaving traffic rolling over the worst section of town road I've been on in ten years.

Let's add in the new road system being built just outside Shannon to stop cars travelling from Galway to Shannon having to cross two national primary routes in the space of 100m (that's the N18/N19 btw - not mentioned on the sensibletransport site at all) - one of the most dangerous sections of road I've been on - with the exception of the extremely tight bend at Crusheen on the Limerick/Galway road. The new interchange at Shannon isn't a major new road but is actually costing quite a bit of money - necessary money imho.

I'm not going to mention the N22 Cork, because it's your neck of the woods and I don't know squat about it (I've only driven from Cork to Killarney twice)

Lawnkiller

the government seems to be like very bad management and suffering severe loss of value for their money. there should be some kind of audit and procedure in place so any inside or outside comapnies linked with the state return value for money indtead of contiuously leeching cash just cos its a state contract or semistate body. if this country was run like an effective company (can't think or any at the mo - they've all been cooking their books ) it would be in better shape than it is now.

as it stands, the current government has to fund loads of things such as the SSIA, roads, etc. at the expense of education, health, motorists, etc. these areas are clearly very far from the sight of the average govt. member (private healthcare, govt. car, etc) so "it doesn't really matter".

btw. nobody can say we have good or even effective transport in ireland. everywhere else in europe(except the UK) has better roads, drivers, public transport, and transport policies. for every one good stretch of road in ireland, there are 10 newly opened crap ones. the way u can tell a road is new in ireland is that it has less bumps than the old one. we also have a rail network that is being pi$$ed down the tube(no pun intended). most of the freight in ireland is trucked around contributing to gridlock etc.

note: i did not vote for the current govt. i reckon a government made entirely of independent candidates would serve this nation better for at least one term of office.

cynical rant over. :rolleyes:

Cork

There are a few sections of the Mallow to Croom stretch that are accidents waiting to happen - notably the winding road from Twopothouse to Buttevant, half of the road from Buttevant to Ballyhea (the lack of visibility in no way stops people overtaking on these stretches

Charleville, Ballybeg & Buttevent need bypasses.

Ballyhea is fine.

What the government intend doing is to build a 4 lane dual carriage way.

This is a waste of resources.

have u seen the stone wall going into Ballyhea. This section of road widening needs to be completed.

What we need to see is spending resources in areas of most need.

Have you seen the Ballyheagaa.com site - How the mighty have fallen.

BJJ

You're dead right Cork.

Except most of these idiots on brds.ie won't listen to you.

Education is crucial. Have any of you people been to West-Side London, East-Rome, Brooklyn-Newyork, South Central LA.?

A lack of education leads to unskilled, uneducated masses of people. It leads to more drugs and more crime.


The Irish-Transport Minitsry is possibly one of the worst in Europe, it's so dis-organized. I advise people to compare Denmark, Germany, Luxembourg and Switzerlands , Roads, Buses, Infastructure to Irelands. The Irish system is still in the stone-age. And talk about expensive, I was given a £3000
quote for a Car worth 900 Euros. Fu-ck that! Needless to say, I drive the car without insurance and I'm never paying Road-tax.

Winning Hand

Education is crucial. Have any of you people been to ........................rant.............................rant.....................
Needless to say, I drive the car without insurance and I'm never paying Road-tax.

Anyone else noting the irony?

Cork

Why do we need to waste money on roads over our heritage sies - while we are cutting back on health.

Should we just plan our cities better & invest in the rail network?

Health cutbacks are pretty low.

sceptre

Originally posted by Cork
There needs to be a direct rail route from Cork to Limerick.

Off topic really, given that CIE/IE effectively make their own decisions on much of their investment, but there used be a direct train service from Cork to Limerick (obviously running through Limerick junction) - taking about 70 minutes. Three services a day.

They dropped it. Takeup was so low that there was no way it was financially viable. Last time I took it I was the only person on the train who didn't work for CIE. It was only about four years ago.

Bringing it back would be a clear example of the money wasting you're arguing against. It was dropped for the same reason that the 11pm service from Cork to Mallow was dropped - no-one was using it. If you really meant a "direct" rail link from Cork to Limerick (as in building a new line through Croom), that is never going to happen.

Please reconcile the following statements, made in the same post:

Why do we need to waste money on roads over our heritage sies - while we are cutting back on health.

Health cutbacks are pretty low.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Why do we need to waste money on roads
......

Should we just ... invest in the rail network?

Errr? What? Cut back on roads, and build more track.
This will help us save money how exactly?

As for "planning our cities better"...what do you want? Tear down Dublin and build it afresh? If not, then exactly what planning are you talking about? And exactly what should they be doing that they havent been doing up to now?

The problem has not been the planning. The problem has been the legacy structure built up in towns/cities over the last several hundred years, mixed by progress and growth rates which were never envisaged.

Exactly what makes you think we can plan any more sucessfully today?

jc

jc

Cork

Look at cities internationally like Sydney. Dublin needs a good public transport system. Sitting in cars is a waste of time.

Dublin cannot cope with it's traffic levels.

We need proper regional development.

bonkey

Originally posted by Cork
Dublin needs a good public transport system. Sitting in cars is a waste of time.

Dublin cannot cope with it's traffic levels.

We need proper regional development.

So when you said "roads before public health is craxy" you only meant roads...and not transport in general??

People living in Dublin often seem to feel that massive investment in Dublin is necessary, but all those road works down the country are far less important, cause there's obviously far less traffic down there.

People down the country, on the other hand, very often feel that the traffic problems in Dublin are being given far too much attention, and the rest of the country left to suffer. This has the effect of keeping business centralised around Dublin, which puts greater pressure on the roads, creating a positive feedback loop.

Conclusion? Not enough is being spent on either system. And yet, we have complaints constantly that we're spending too much on roads and not enough on "important" things.

I'm not sure how to reconcile this. Surely we cant attribute all of these problems to nothing more than "bad planning"?

jc

JacquesPompidou

bonk

Shazbat

Originally posted by Morphéus
What about them cancelling the 5 much needed and relatively inexpensive Search and Rescue Helicoptors for the Air-Corps?

What is it with you and helicopters?

Originally posted by BJJ
Fu-ck that! Needless to say, I drive the car without insurance and I'm never paying Road-tax.

heh heh

Morpheus

Il tell you what it is with me and helicopters.

My friend Srg Pat Mooney, was killed in Tramore in waterford on a dark foggy wet night in 1999 while returning from a SAR mission when the Air Corps helicopter he was flying slammed into high sand dunes, while trying to make an approach to Waterford Airport in bad weather.

The government pledged to the families of those men killed that they would not only replace the much needed helicopter with new equipment, but that they would also update the current fleet. And provide new equipment to improve the ability of the Air Crews to fly at night in bad weather.

The govt pissed money away getting the Price Waterhouse report written up by civil servants (notice no army personnell where involved in its drafting) on defence.

This white paper on defence recommended cutbacks on numbers of personnell and purchasing of equipment. The defence forces let about many personnell leave, reducing numbers to just over 10,000 all ranks and closed numerous barracks around ireland, to raise money for the equipment.

Now the govt bought APCs but they needed replacement anyway, the others were forty years old, they started to buy helicopters, they planned to buy new training planes to replace those who's flying lives will soon end, but now theyve taken that money away, leaving them down on numbers, down on infrastructure, and down on equipment.


Im sick of the shower of ****es in the finance department, Mc Creevys head should roll.

thats my rant.:mad:

bertiebowl

The government have frittered away the boom on rubbish like Farmleigh house (€40 million) and the Dundrum bypass (an incredible €40 for about 3 kilometres!) not to mention pay rises for the TDs

Now the chickens are coming home to roost.

Cutbacks are inevitable given that McCreevy's house of cards tax cuts three card trick isn't working anymore.

Either cutbacks or tax increases.

But I'm not sure if the irish electorate would be willing to pay higher taxes

dathi1

and now there gona push for a yes to Nice and threaten our Jobs with European expansion. ...No way to Nice Jose!NO TO NICE MORE POWER FOR THEW LESS FOR US (AND THE SMALLER STATES TOO!)

Cork

What Cutbacks?

Berties main priorities for the rest of the year are Nice & the Budget.

Health?
Eduaction?

MrPudding

Originally posted by Lawnkiller

btw. nobody can say we have good or even effective transport in ireland. everywhere else in europe(except the UK) has better roads, drivers, public transport, and transport policies.

The UK is by no means perfect, but your statement is a joke. The roads in the UK are by far better than the roads in Ireland, have you ever driven in the UK? The drivers in Ireland are better than the UK, wake up and smell the coffee, drivers in Ireland are accidents waiting to happen. At least in the UK you have to sit a test to see if you are capable of driving a car. It is in Ireland and not the UK where can you sit a test of competency to judge whether or not you are able to safely drive a car, subsequently fail that test & be deemed unable to safely drive the car and then get into the car and drive home unsupervised. The number of near misses if have had since I moved to Dublin is scary( and I am from the north where the driving is pretty bad!), let me give you a couple of hints,
1) Amber means prepare to stop NOT speed up. 2) Red means STOP not "4 more cars please"
3) Traffic on the roundabout has right of way.

I cannot really comment on public transport as I don't really use it much, when I have used it in Dublin, as in the UK, I have found it to be ok. I have friends who use public transport a lot here and in the UK, both lots complain endlessly about the respective shortfalls.
I personally think it isn't really fair to compare the road network in the UK with that in Ireland, there are just too many differences in the countries, but I feel that to say the road in Ireland are better is a bit silly. I don't know if any scientifically based comparisons have been carried out but anecdotally I feel, as I'm sure most people who have driven in the UK, Irish roads are not better.