changing name servers - how to ensure no loss in e-mail services?

nahdoic

I'm sure a lot of people here have done this umpteen times.

So it would be great to find out HOW you did it, to ensure no e-mail downtime for the organisation.

They need to change from their current eircom hosting to well - a good hosting provider.

Nameservers:
auth01.ns.eircom.net
auth02.ns.eircom.net
auth03.ns.eircom.net

Start Of Authority: auth01.ns.eircom.net

auth01.ns.eircom.net is authorative for 1910 domains.

Mail Servers:
pri 10 mail.indigo.ie

The problem, of course is, the delay in getting the DNS databases around the globe updated.

- downloading the e-mail is fine - just enter the direct IP address to download from and you're done.

- sending the e-mail is fine - just use your dial-up/adsl provider host's smtp server and you're done.

- people sending mail to the old@company.ie could still be getting delivered to the eircom mail server while the DNS is being updated. So what can you do?

Perhaps a catch all forward from the old server to the new one? Great idea, but what address do you forward it to? You can't forward it to an IP address, has to be a domain, and if the DNS hasn't been updated yet then that's going to end up in a vicious circle, and possibly crash the eircom mail server.

So the only thing I can think of now is for the new server to periodically pop the old server, and download any mail delivered there, and add it to the queue on the new server. Anyone know of what software (running on *nix, or freeBSD to be exact) that could do that easily?

Or anyone know of a better way of doing it? I have a few other ideas as well, perhaps just adding two receiving accounts for the company during the transistion - so the company will pop both the old and new server. Is there some easy standard approach that you would always take for something like this...? Of if there is a flaw in my thinking please let me know!

mneylon

You're thinking doesn't seem to be flawed IMHO

If you can access the Eircon account via IP address then you could modify email client settings to collect email from both oldserver and newserver. That way you shouldn't lose any mail (in theory at least)

nahdoic

thx blacknight.

Like you said, i'll have to check to see if you can download the mail directly from the Eircom account via an IP address as well. That could be the only problem.

mneylon

If the new server is Linux there's an app available to download mail from an external server.

nahdoic

yeah. I would have thought as much - what's the app name?

(it's freeBSD so yep it's unix)

mneylon

Have a look here:
http://www.uk2raq.com/raqfaq/raqfaqshow.php?faq=98
It's for a RAQ, but it should work for any *nix OS with some changes

jmcc

Originally posted by nahdoic
I'm sure a lot of people here have done this umpteen times.

So it would be great to find out HOW you did it, to ensure no e-mail downtime for the organisation.

They need to change from their current eircom hosting to well - a good hosting provider.
please let me know!

The joys of being a sysadmin. First, since you are dealing with Eircom about DNS matters, the muppet factor is very high. The standard method is probably out so Blacknight's solution of dual checking is the best bet during the changeover period.

Both mail accounts would have to be checked for at least a few days. The standard method would have the old DNSes following the new DNSes so that they pick up the changes as secondaries. If you are dealing with a .com/net/org domain then once you change the DNS details to the new ones, then the rest of the world (excluding Eircom/Indigo and anyone using Eircom DNSes) will go to the new servers.

Once the domain is running on its new DNSes, it is IMPORTANT to get Eircom to remove the domain from its DNSes and the domain from their mail configuration. I don't have a high regard for Eircom's DNS management procedure so it is a question of getting to the one or two clueful people there. Be careful not to talk to sales maggots - you have to talk directly to the DNS admins.

If Eircom does not remove the domain zonefile/mail configuration, then all mail from Eircom/Indigo domains will end up in the old account and will continue to do so.

Regards...jmcc

nahdoic

cheers jmcc,

that is exactly the type of thing that I wouldn't have thought about. although I would hold the muppet factor of Eircom in the highest regard - I wouldn't have believed they could reach such heights of muppetry as not to automatically update their own internal DNS.

The best way to check that they have updated their own DNS would be to send a mail from a Eircom/Indigo account to the organisation and see whether it goes to the old account or the new one, yeah?

jmcc

Originally posted by nahdoic
I wouldn't have believed they could reach such heights of muppetry as not to automatically update their own internal DNS.

There was a major fsck up there a few months ago. Apparently 1300 or so indigo domains were giving the wrong information. Indigo has been swallowed by Eircom but the DNS info had not been updated and were still giving ann.indigo.ie and una.indigo.ie as the NS details even though everything had changed.

Domain shadowing among Irish ISPs is actually a lot more common than people realise. Sometimes it is down to the incompentence of the ISP or the ISP wanting to make life difficult for the ex-client.
However dealing with Eircom on DNS matters when you don't have the name of the right guy to fix the situation is a nightmare. While I think that such people do exist inside Eircom, it is the sales maggots who cause most of the problems. They tend to promise the sun, moon and stars to the sucker to get them to sign on the dotted line and then it is left to the techies to sort out the mess.

The best way to check that they have updated their own DNS would be to send a mail from a Eircom/Indigo account to the organisation and see whether it goes to the old account or the new one, yeah?

That would be the simplest way of doing things from a non-Unix/Linux box. If you had Linux, you could do a 'dig @auth01.ns.eircom.net domain.com mx' and that would give you the results as Eircom sees it. Though I think that dig is part of the named/bind software.

Regards...jmcc

nahdoic

That fetchmail program is exactly what is needed, and it's already installed on the server (pair are just the best) - thx blacknight

Never knew about that 'dig' command jmcc. It's very helpful indeed, thx. It's throwing up a lot of very worrying results from the eircom nameserver though. A few domains I transferred over a year ago have still not been updated!

I did a 'dig @auth01.ns.eircom.net mydomain.ie axfr' and it will get you the right results - as it consults an authoritive server. Then just query the eircom nameserver itself - the way you suggested, and the old non-updated-year-old nameserver and mail exchanger information for the domain comes up. What a complete joke. Are they being anti-competitive or imcompetent or indeed both?

hmmm ... I am thinking about making a program that will query all .ie domains from the eircom nameserver, then query an authoritative server and see how many domains eircom have messed up. Then try and find out why these domains have still not been updated from eircom. And get them updated.

Is there anyway to force the eircom DNS system to update a recrod for a domain from an authorative server? I'm guessing not since you had to deal with eircom staff directly, to get your domain(s) updated.

Just one more question then. Who or what exactly uses this crappy, out of dated errorcom nameserver information? I've never had a problem with people complaining about the website not coming, or missing e-mails...

jmcc

Originally posted by nahdoic
I did a 'dig @auth01.ns.eircom.net mydomain.ie axfr' and it will get you the right results - as it consults an authoritive server.

Most nameservers block axfr due to its potential for misuse. NS,MX and SOA are the important ones. The SOA can even give you the date it was last modified.

Are they being anti-competitive or imcompetent or indeed both?

Never attribute to malice that which can be explained by incompetence.

hmmm ... I am thinking about making a program that will query all .ie domains from the eircom nameserver

Actually that would not be too difficult for the WhoisIreland.com spiders to do. It would just be a case of running the SOA check across the major ISPs and flagging the ones where the SOAs differ. It may be a nice feature to add to WhoisIreland.com. (Been busy working on indexing about 895000 .info domains and their websites for the last few days and it is reducing my IQ to the state of a BigBrother housemate. I need some distraction.)

I'm guessing not since you had to deal with eircom staff directly, to get your domain(s) updated.

I had to deal with Eircom a few times to get client domains changed. It was a real problem to get to the right individuals.

Just one more question then. Who or what exactly uses this crappy, out of dated errorcom nameserver information?

Any leased line client using Eircom's DNSes would have problems as would Eircom's and indigo's dialup customers. If the claims of being the biggest ISP are to be believed, then it is a very significant section of the market.

Regards...jmcc

quozl

Perhaps a catch all forward from the old server to the new one? Great idea, but what address do you forward it to? You can't forward it to an IP address, has to be a domain, and if the DNS hasn't been updated yet then that's going to end up in a vicious circle, and possibly crash the eircom mail server.

The new site may not have your domain name on it yet, but it is likely to have another dns entry? Your future www.something.com may also be in a dns as server14.content.someHostingService.com
So you can forward mail to that. This isnt always the case of course, but if it is, then it's a handy way out.
quozl