Religion

lordsippa

Ok... I know this is a VERY touchy subject so first off let me say that pretty much every religion has its good points and if I do make any sort of joke about any it'll likely be about Mormans <"yeah... invisible writings that only you can see... *suuuure*"> and isn't meant to be offensive. I don't think i've gone an hour without having my tongue in my cheek, so I really don't mean offense ok?

And with an opening post this long... God, I know this is gonna be a popular thread. ;p

Now to the point... what are peoples religious views here? I ask cause I'm facinated with theology and philosophy and religion in general <including pyschological aspects to religious practices>.

Personally, I find organised religions scary. This I attribute to the fact that my generation were subject to lots of scares about cults and hence I've become all too aware of how similar the brainwashing tactics of cults are to rituals in most religious ceremonies... hence I've quite openly dismissed my official title of Catholic. Sorry, but I can't believe man can tell me what god is. Not saying that Christians, Jews and Islamics <and all the others that are similar but different in some way> are completely wrong... I just can't accept you as 100% correct and I'm one of those people who strives for the truth as absolute as I can get it.

My personal religious beliefs are kinda interesting cause they're very buddhist, tribal, <various religions that stem from Abraham>, crowley et moi.

I'll detail them below <next post> before I reach the maximum size a post can be...

lordsippa

First off, I nearly became an atheist but I am not. The reason... I found that my constant strive to find some definite logic behind a higher being inconquerable. It struck me that if I was to continue searching I couldn't justify questioning the existance of something I didn't believe in. So I just decided "well why the hell isn't there?" and accepted that I believe there is something. Not saying there is, just that I feel there is. <god I am a weirdo eh?>

Second, I think there's a supreme being. But I don't think it matters much. I mean... we don't have to worship it. Why would we? If it's supreme it shouldn't rely on our faith.

Third, I don't believe in an interventionist god.

Fourth, my idea of what this "God" is is completely undefined. I don't know and I've stopped caring. I just accept and leave it at that.

Fifth, thanks to study of Santeria <very mild study might i add> I've come to believe in the existance of Orishas or some such entitities. Orishas are kinda like demi-gods... or angels... and they take it upon themselves <well.. the ones we're in touch with> to help us. Everyone is kinda looked after by one of the orishas. But that's not saying every orisha has a different person... there are more of us than there are of them. The actual belief stems from Yuroba. Look it up.

Sixth, I tie the idea of the orisha into Zen, and suddenly it becomes apparent that my orisha is my Zen... my guiding force.

Seventh, I believe in Karma because not only is it a nice idea, but it seems to actually make sense when applied to my life.

Eighth, I don't know if all people are equal... I hate to say this, but some people are just scum and although I don't think they should be oppressed it is definitely true that they are in many ways slaves... I sorta get more into this philosophy the more cynical I get <this is where I turn into Crowley>... and I don't mean it as it sounds... just too long to explain here. So no angry replies calling me a bastard ok? I'm not being mean... I'm just not elaborating.

Ninth. This speaks for itself. "Love is the law. Love under will."

Tenth: "If God is love and love is all then there can be no opposite"

Eleventh: Who cares if there's an afterlife? I'm gonna be nice in this world anyway. If I go to some "Heaven" then lucky me. eh?

Tis all. For now... <my theological ideals go on for far too long to type here>

imp

I pretty much agree with everything that sven said except for his eigth and eleventh points.

I do care if there's an afterlife. I know its selfish but I don't like the idea of my existence ever completely ending. But I'm not really sure in my own mind whether or not I believe in an afterlife. If there is, then I think everybody has a chance to go there, no matter what they did in life. Maybe their actions on this earth will affect their chances but I don't believe it can ever be diminished.

}:>

Plasticman

ok, before i start, i just want everyone to know that i'm not trying to insult your beliefs, or anything like that. this is just my totally cynical and probably irrational views on religions, but not beliefs. i have no aversion to any beliefs, but what i'm saying is directed solely at the organisations, specificly at the catholic church. anyone who was at the discussion about religion at s1 2002 will probably have a fair premonition about what's gonna happen here...


religions are probably the most corrupt societies on earth. they are totally rife with corruption and all that crap. some may help poor people, but most just freeload off the public for say a few choice words in an obscure language.

all the major wars on the planet have had religous beliefs behind them. world war 2, well everyone knows the deal with that. same with "the troubles" up north. all the wars from about 5000 BC to about 500 AD were because of religous beliefs, mainly because the churches were the government, and they wanted power and land. "spreading the word of whatever god it was to the heathens" was just a handy excuse.

churches have always held positions of tenure throughout history. they have been above the law, and frequently WERE the law. they brought suffering to countless innocent people just because they didn't totally agree, or were slightly different. major examples of this are the witch hunts in britain and america.

nearly all religions have a rule saying not to kill. that's all fine and everything, but then they go off breaking their own rules, starting wars, eliminating opposition to their beliefs, and therefore, their power. this way, they prove themselves to be the worst type of hypocrites, the kind who shouldn't be trusted with anything.

well, now that my rant about corrupt religous organisations is finished, i'll try, probably in vain, to redeem myself.

while some of the ecclesiasticly inclined people of corrupt bastards, coming as close to evil as my utilitarian views allow, a great many more are genuinely nice people. it's just that the people who get to the positions of power are the more politically inclined people, who, for the most part, are the corrupt ones. the nicer people in positions of powertend to be manipulated by the others. in this way, organisations that started out with the best of intentions get too caught up in the political side of religon. i recognise the fact that all those who are portrayed badly by the media are vastly outweighed by the ones who genuinely want to help people.

while i totally dislike, if not hate, most religious organisations, there are a few i respect greatly. the formost of these are buddism and any other that has a history of keeping to their values even when it would have been better to throw it aside. they are the only ones, in my probably pretty narrow view, who deserve respect. i also like the beliefsof the old pagan races such as celts, but only as a basis for novels and things. they wouldn't stand up in a world like ours. i wouldn't follow them, i just think they're pretty cool.

i view religons these days to have reached the point where their prime role is to be a comfort to the ageing and those who seek redemption for something they've done. in my opinion, people have reached a point where they don't need to rely on a higher being for anything. all the good work done by the church could also be done by someone with good intentions working for a charity.

i personally don't have any views one way or another whether there is a god or not, and i'm not going to go out on a limb on the possibility of a higher being i could anger.

that's all i can think of at the moment. please don't hate me. these are just my views. i don't expect anyone to agree with me. i will now go to a corner to cringe in fear of the wrath i will have aroused from people with my extreme views on religions. *cringes in fear*

BEAT

Originally posted by lordsippa

Fifth, thanks to study of Santeria <very mild study might i add> I've come to believe in the existance of Orishas or some such entitities. Orishas are kinda like demi-gods... or angels... and they take it upon themselves <well.. the ones we're in touch with> to help us. Everyone is kinda looked after by one of the orishas. But that's not saying every orisha has a different person... there are more of us than there are of them. The actual belief stems from Yuroba. Look it up.

Sixth, I tie the idea of the orisha into Zen, and suddenly it becomes apparent that my orisha is my Zen... my guiding force.

I am very impressed that you are knowledgable in the area of the Orishas and Santeria...how did you first hear of it and what made you want to know more? I didnt think that too many people in Ireland even knew what this was.

Crash

Personally, i believe organised religion is the wrong way to go. I don't like the idea of having my beliefs dictated to me by a heirarchy of people, who from past experience from events worldwide tend to be highly hypocritical, something that angers me beyond belief.

Also, one of the main problems i have with catholicism is its belief that, from birth, we are sinners. i find this a very condemning belief and also it confines you in that if you do not follow their beliefs exactly, you are a sinner.
<J+SBquote>
PS: I've become very cynical over the past few years re: religion, so i may just sound very pissed off with the entire thing, and apologise profusely. remember, If god exists, he has a sense of humour. look at the platypus.

PPS: I apologise profusely to the platypus and its lovers. this stupid animal does not deserve to me mocked for its stupidity.

</J+SBquote>

Green Hand Guy

I don't believe in any god or have any really religious beliefs but I have no problem with people who do as long as they don't try and enforce them on me (e.g. my parents say I'm a catholic just because I was baptised one which is a load of crap since because of my beliefs baptism means nothing). Another thing I hate is the way that in school my religion teacher claims I'm an empty person with no morality. I'm probably the most moral person ever. I rarely get angry and even then I only get what most people would consider slightly pissed off.
I think that there are higher life forms than humans but they're not gods or anything. Somewhere in the universe there has to be some other life and chances are it could be more powerful than humans. They my even have created the cells that evolved into humans in a lab and placed them on earth as part of some big experiment. Sorry if I sound like I'm more insane than I actually am but it could be true.
Oh, and here's a question for you to ponder. If there is a god and he created us with free will wouldn't that contradict the fact that he'd want us to follow a certain set of thoughts?

oq4v3ht0u76kf2

I warn you now, this post won't be very coherent because it talks about some of my strongest and saddest feelings and times in my life.

My grandfather passed away on March the 25th of this year, he was 90 years old. Tony Moran is my hero. I only hope I can grow up to be half the man he is. (I don't say was because I see him alive every day in my uncles, aunts, cousins ands immeadiate family.) Although his soul has left this earth, I still talk to him and look to him for guidance. The only way I believe I can do this is because God has accept my grandfather into heaven and God now loves my grandfather more than he ever could have when my grandfather was alive. I will never be as great a man as my grandad, and I am comfortable with that because my grandfather was the greatest man I have ever known. He was kind, funny, talented, moral and intelligent. He spent his last days on a hospital bed in St. Patricks ward, Beaumont Hospital. It is in St. Patricks ward that I grew infinetely more closer to God, there were times when I was almost unable to sit in the presence of my grandfather because he looked so weak and feeble. The strongest and best man I have ever known was lying in front of me, hardly able to breath. That is when I realised that there is a higher power, someone stronger than even the strongest human being. However, I love and trust this higher power and hope to someday be accepted into his kingdom. I refer to this higher power as God. Anyway, I amn't an "organised" catholic or whatever as I feel that instead of sitting in a church for an hour a week God would be much more assured of my love for him by me living as he wishes and being a good christian. I believe in, love with all my heart and worship God. I do not agree with, know or believe every word in the bible but I do believe in God. Hmm, yeah.

Rest In Peace, Tony Moran
1912 - 2002

oq4v3ht0u76kf2

Oh, and I can vouch for Conor's (Green Hand Guy) morality. He is an extremely moral person, even more so when you consider he's a teenage boy.

article6

First of all, note that I speak as a practising Catholic.

Regardless, I believe that organised religion is a positive force in our society.

It is effective in alerting people to how they should live and awakening within them their own personal morality. Organised group worship is often an important part of religions, mostly traditionally Western religions, because it forms a sense of community inherent in the tenets of such religions (e.g. the Family of God). However, a good life can be lived without this worship.

OR: I believe that was an incredibly coherent and understandable post which almost reflected my own emotions on the death of my great-uncle, which I won't go into here.

Conor: Actually, free will is necessary for following such beliefs, otherwise there would be no point to God *wishing* us to follow them, because we would have to follow them anyway. Convincing others to do what is right can be a rewarding challenge.

Suffice it to say that in the hands of good people, a good force is good. In the hands of evil people, a good force is evil. But an evil force is always evil.

Crash

No offence, but i find that Catholicism is a very dated religion that has many problems. (where's Mark when you need some senseless bible quotes).

I think that organised religion is not the way, even if i was not an atheist. Religion is a very personal thing, its your relationship with god, and i believe how you communicate with your God(s) should be personal. It should not be controlled by a governing body such as the Vatican which should dictate right and wrong to you.

Re: peoples morality: it is much more related to your family environment than your beliefs. My family, while quite Catholic, never really forced the belief onto me, and yet i still am quite a moral person. ask anyone. cept for a few minor things which i do not believe effect me.

Neil

Man U babe

Like most people here, I was baptised a Catholic. From when I was very young, though, I've disliked the institution. It discriminates against women and has a very pessimistic world view.
What DO I believe in? I believe there is a higher power, but I don't know what form it takes. Out of the organised religions, I would probably lean more towards Buddhist teachings. I believe that you should try to live a good life and this is the basic essence of Buddhism-the Eightfold Path. I dont believe in reincarnation.

lordsippa

Firstly, Bob... although I didn't get to think like that through similar occurences, that is definitely how i felt before i became a heathen piece of scum. Personally... I don't know. I felt very close to God, but I nowadays feel much more that the concept of having an Orisha makes more sense... I don't know. It's just what my mind rationalises best.

Secondly, Afterlife wise, I never said I don't want to go to one, or that there is/isn't one. I merely meant that since we'll never know I'm not going to bother trying to work it out.

Thirdly, I first learned of Santeria through a girl I know who comes from cuba <za... ees Kalima>. It caught my interest and I researched into it. Still I haven't learned half enough, but there are so many other things of interest to me.

About Buddhism... I think THE Buddha was wise and enlightened... I think the people who tacked on all the mysticism were idiots. It is one of the religions where they've completely gone against the person they worship <who basically said "it doesn't matter who or what you worship... what matters is who you are">. ... Which is kinda stupid no?

Anyway, that's my current update.

BEAT

for those not familiar with what an Orisha is:

Why Find Out Who Your Orisha Is?

When we come to this world, each of us are accompanied by an Orisha. That Orisha helps us to better our lives and is one of our first lines of protection in life. We share many of the traits of our Orisha, and many of the things which are suitable for our Orisha are also most suitable for us. And by knowing who our Orisha is, we also learn to know ourselves better. Knowing who is the "owner of our head" also helps us to lead more effective lives. And the more we live in harmony with our Orisha, the more harmonious our lives will be. For example, when a person finds out they are a child of Obatalá they know they usually function best over time and that when they are hurried they are at their least efficient. They need time alone and require peace and quiet. Children of Obatalá need to take very good care of their heads and should refrain from drinking heavily or taking drugs. When you know who your Orisha is, you also know who to approach when you need help in life. Therefore, the identity of our Orisha is extremely important for us in the religion.


for more information on this subject go to :
http://www.seanet.com/~efunmoyiwa/santeria.html
or type in Orisha under search option and go from there.

Kay

My turn now.

Neil has made a good point about religion being your relationship with God, and therefore being a personal concern.
(-tickles Neil-)

My parents didn't have me baptised. But I feel deeply swathed in the spirituality which rebounds off the good things in the world.

Perhaps if you've ever had a reiki treatment, and felt the tingling power surging through you, you may understand what I mean when I say there is a semi-tangible energy in us, which is powerful and also quite wise.

Picture it as a vertical shaft holding you, the bumper car, steady.

I think it's called love.

That's all.

Love,
K.

wiensta

hmm, mesa buddhist
just to rectify: Buddhism is not a religion. a religion is a form of WORSHIP. Buddhism is more a practise, a state of mind, a way of being, a system of belief.blablabla. Yes yes i know it probably is defined as a religion but read into it, it aint. (unless its tibetan buddhism which imo it is ) anyways . bye

oq4v3ht0u76kf2

Oh, I also believe in the guardian angel concept. I like to think that mine is my other grandfather, who died a month after I was born. I amn't too sure but I think it's him. I don't know, from what I've heard of him and from looking over my life and mistakes I think it's him. I amn't sure. Anyway, an Orisha did you say? Yeah, got that.

s0l

I dont know.
thats me being honest, religion is one of those things thats a touchy subject for me.
I think I believe in a god but i have conflicting emotions. Maybe theres some advanced race(specieis?) out there that have ascended to godily hood.
But wether theres a god or many, I do believe that its only loosly invovled in our lives.
I do have a belief, maybe even a need, I want to see the future, I'm no realist, I have dreams and I'm going to do my best to see them come true, that is my religion, a passion for tomorrow, for what it will bring, on both the long and short scale. sure sometimes you dont want to see it coming but I'm going to face it and enjoy every moment of it, forget the specifics, there are none, its a primal urge I have to see it, even if i have another that makes me want to hide under the covers in the morning and do nothing and let it come on its own.
I'm losing my direction here but I do know that it is a personal belief of mine that will effect no one else so meh I'm letting my mind wander and typing for the sake of typing but i think this sums it up pretty well:



Face it, the present sucks

NeoSlicerZ

/me watched too much Dogma

Spidergal

I agree that religion is a very individual subject. I don't think that organised religion suits everybody, I think that everybody probably creates their own religion in a way, they take the main points of whatever religion they belong to and add some of their own personal beliefs.

My view of organised religion is this: it can be both dangerous and good. If you get one person who wants to abuse people at their most vulnerable than their beliefs are probably it - look at the pre-Lutheran state of Germany as an example, Absenteeism or the paying of indulgences (money to secure a place for someone in heaven) etc. It is when one person tries to interpret religion for a group of people that problems arise. Because each individual takes something different from their own religion.

The bible as I see it was written not just to detail the life of Jesus but as a general handbook of the time. It covers everything from religion right down to basic household maintanence. There is one section which talks about the removal of mold from a house! This mold would have caused sickness and at the time rabeiis acted as the local health inspectors so as a way of spreading knowledge the bible was used. I think that many religious ideas stemmed from common sense. For instance in the Muslim religion pork is not eaten. This religion comes from the middle east where the weather is extremely warm. At the time when organised religion was beginning they had no way of keeping meat fresh for long so pork would have gone off very quickly, therefore it only makes sense not to eat it. I'm not saying that's the only reason such things occured but I'm just throwing more light on the issues.

Religion offers people an escape at times of need and despair, it is for this reason that in my opinion it is important- it allows people a friend in whom they can trust at any time. Every religion I believe offers this. I like the idea of Orisha's and guardian angels and believe everyone has one.

Dalamar

Hrmmmmmmmm..... yes, religion is a touchy+personal topic... i'll won't rave on about the catholic church's faults, (though for a while i considered being a protestant, but decided no.), it's a topic most of you will probably know what side i stand on, and what i am. (Satanist, and NO! it's not because of the image business, i turned to Satanism almost a year ago at this point.)

Organised religion can be ok though.......

lordsippa

Ok... firstly... Spidergal... you made good points, but your examples and facts need some ... looking up? I'm not gonna nitpick but just be careful to know what you say is fact cause there are a lot of people <some on this> that'll rip into you VERY fast.

Sim... bleh. Talk to me when I'm back about what you believe and why, okay? Cause so far I've never heard of a satanist who wasn't A). a poser, . a loser, C). an idiot, or D). a conman.

Elvish

My beliefs about religion are as follows:

Religion is not corrupt in itself. It is a human system which therefore has human flaws. Greed. Nothing is evil in itself, it is just used for evil works. A gun for example: An incredible piece of modern engineering. Not evil on its own. Though they have been used for some of the most heinous crimes.

Religion's corruptness all boils down to human flaws. It is a problem with ourselves rather than with the system.


Many young people nowadays mock religion, saying there is no logic in believing in a supreme being. I sort of believe in a supreme being, I don't really know. I think organised religion is a huge blessing to the people of the world. Another example: My neighbour, she lost her baby at birth and was devastated naturally. After a few months she cheered up and thought of the death as a part of God's great plan.

Religion brings people together and keeps people happy. What else can you ask of an organisation? I think religion has its flaws but these are human flaws. Corruptness & sex abuse are both because of human weakness. Nothing more. Weaknesses with horrific consequences, but weaknesses.

I think you would be expecting too much of religion to expect perfection. I know this may sound odd to many of you.

-rob

lordsippa

I think the only measure of a religion is its beliefs. Not it's morality... not it's organisation... it's simple theoretical ideas.

BUT to subscribe to a religion, I could not be part of an organisation as flawed as all religions are. Any flaw, when it comes to spirituality, is too much.

I don't think that whether priests are, in general, nice or nasty should have any bearing on whether you believe in christianity or not.

oq4v3ht0u76kf2

For what it's worth Sven, in the five or six years that I've known Simon he's never posed about anything. He's not a loser or a conman, nor do I think he's an idiot. Anyone who remembers him from last year (Ses. 1) knows that whilst he wasn't the most sociable and he did almost always have earphones in he wasn't a poser and he didn't do it for attention. This year, he was, well, Sim. And Sim rocks.

claire h

"Love thy neighbour" is one of the Ten Commandments, if my hazy memories of my Catholic upbringing serve me right. Religions that place an emphasis on treating others with respect and love and all those other good things are certainly a positive influence on society. Life is about people. It's not about money or TV or music or chocolate or sex (although those things are all fantastic, definitely), it's about love. And I think anything that promotes that is a good thing. Love leads to happiness leads to inner peace leads to meaning in life, etc.

On the other hand, the institutions which claim to lead communities in their religious beliefs tend to abuse their power, promoting hate and intolerance towards others, usually anyone whose beliefs don't match up with theirs, which leads to segregration and war and general badness.

On the other other hand (yes, I'm a three-handed mutant), the institutions are necessary to bring people together in support of their chosen religion, gives them a sense of community. It's a flawed system, but it's what's there.

lordsippa

OK, I know and love sim <hey sim!>... but... erm... y'know there is no actual religion satanism? it's a belief thing and that the church of satan is a con-act. As regards the idiocy... well... the only people who have ever REALLY been satanists <as opposed to practicioners in dark arts> usually end up killing someone and when they have their heads checked are found to be quite mentally retarded.

So, sim... hatred etc is satanism... i know you like to think that, but do you REALLY want to live a life of suffering and supplication for absolutely no reward? hmmm?

Spidergal

O.K. point taken, I knew when I posted that I was leaving myself open to debate on some of the points in that post, but they are opinions based on fact (except the point about pork in relation to Muslims) that was purely personal opinion. Anyway, this is the dictionary take on religion, anyone have any comments?




Main Entry: re.li.gion
Pronunciation: ri-'li-j&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English religioun, from Latin religion-, religio supernatural constraint, sanction, religious practice, perhaps from religare to restrain, tie back -- more at RELY
Date: 13th century
1 a : the state of a religious b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith
- re.li.gion.less adjective

This was an interesting thread to start. Was anyone at the discussion on religion in session 1, 2002?

smiles

Religion and beliefs are two totally different things.

In my eyes religion sets down the basic ideas that some people had to try and make the world a little be easier to get around in. ie. take the 10 commandments, they're nothing there that isn't good common sense for not hurting each other, and i don't honestly believe god was involved. In my eyes organised religion is there to offer people hope and some good basic guidance, but it is a corrupt system as all things are.

However my faith is totally different, I believe in God, and i follow a basic Christian belief, I do not believe entirely in the religion, but I do have faith.

<< Fio >>

qwidgybo

ok,i doubt that there is a god,i just can't see this large mystical presence in the universe,i think it's all matter.having said that,there does seem to be something in us beyond matter,a mind,or spirit,or soul or something.so my beliefs tend to conflict,but i'm not at all set on them.i'm constantly reviewing and adding to my beliefs.that's why i say i "doubt" the presence of god,god could very well be there,i'm not ruling it out at all.

organised religion.....i think that religious beliefs are far too important to receive second-hand without much contemplation,like being baptised and then just taking what comes along with it for granted,without examining all that's involved.that's an element of organised religion that i don't like,but not everyone within an organised religion is like that.on the other hand,organised religions have given hope to people.they've made people happy,they've found guidance in religion.so i would never badmouth an organised religion.and although i agree that religion should be a personal thing,organised religion isn't necessarily impersonal.people can examine the beliefs of an organised religion and decide that they are the best for them.

on the subject of the catholic church,
1)the catholic church have moved with the times to a certain extent,it's isn't completely dated or out of touch
2)it's also not the only religion that could be accused of being out of date,quite a few religions could be seen that way.don't single catholicism out.

i think that's all i have to say,for now,anyway

Dalamar

hrmmmmm.... yes, i've heard that 'church of satan is a con' thing again and again.... i dunno really.. what religion isn't really? every religion has it's good and bad points.. this thread is making me re-consider though... and yes, it's belief rather than religion. religion seems........ very illogical to me... (if one definies religion a belief system where on worships or has higher being(s), and belief as a way of living life).