The automatic right of citizenship.

Typedef

I want to know what this country, this republic that we live in the Republic of Ireland is all about, I used to think I knew, but now, I'm not so sure.

The other day I was buying breakfast in a shop, and I happened to notice a headline in a paper proporting that "it is being debated" wether or not children born in Ireland of non Citizen parents should have the right to be Irish citizens.

I thought nothing of it at the time, except a little disquite that the pogrom against the blacks or (whoever) the politicos choose to terrorise to make themselves popular did not seem to have abated while I was living my life, working, largely and delibrately oblivious to the news, which is always sensationalist and bad and thus ignored by me.

Today however I watched a documentary on the siege of Sarajevo by the Serbs. At the time I was roughly 12 years old and largely too young to grasp the implications of what was going on in a distant corner of the world which was miles and miles away from mine.

I couldn't help but think as I was watching that documentary, that this country, resting on it's laurels, protected by NATO, was so guilty of doing nothing to help the people of Sarajevo. Why didn't we do something, why was our lack of action so easily thrown up to UN mandate and all of this country's talk of kinship with the downtrodden left as empty words as the shells fell on Sarajevo?

I watched the report and I wanted to know why, why hadn't someone in this country stood up and done something.... sent our army, increased spending on our army and sent them over there 'somehow' to stop this happening? What in the hell are we Irish even pretending life is all about? Freeing our people from English domination, maybe so, but then what? We are free so we just don't care about anyone else? All of our rhetoric is just that, rhetoric and a lie, we don't care for the downtrodden, as far as I hear it, Bosnians are spongers, so children of Bosnians or(insert some other nationality), have travelled through (n) countries before coming to Ireland, so their children can't be Irish citizens. Excuse me, did I miss something in the translation of the word Republic, from it's native beourgoise?

This train of thought led me to think of Irish people's attitudes to foreigners. This attitude is a national disgrace, people call immigrants, ******s, spicks, baloobas, sambo's and spoongers, they talk about denying the right of citizenship to children born on this island and then try to rationalise their xenophobic, racist, neo nazi views [1], by calling the mother's and father's of those children (Irish children, who happen not to be white or Catholic), spongers and decry them as an infestation that has to be dealt with.

And what of Milosevic? What was he? What did we do to prevent that infestation? Not enough apparently to prevent him. [2] Tell me what did this country do to remove him? Well we worked within the UN mandate hmm? And for the people fleeing the aftermath of this despot? No citizenship for their children, oh no, they are spongers in the eyes of this compassionate, downtrodden, 'Christian' nation.

It makes me feel sick.

[1]Goodwins law be damned.
[2]Enter an apologist stage left, telling us about Ireland's lack of political clout[3].
[3]If Ireland can sit on the security council, how valid is the lack of clout argument[2].

strawberry

Dept. of Justice is considering deporting one of my friends who came here from Kosovo.
She's been here for 3 years, and they're going to uproot her from school and friends and try send her back. Lovely.

And the worst thing about it is that if this was happening to me I'd be causing the greatest uproar, but she's only told a few people because she doesn't want to 'cause a fuss'.

And so we throw out people who want to make a real contribution to life here, and keep our white Catholic skangers.
We've got just about enough courage to deport school children, I think actual military combat in the defence of human rights might be a bit too much. Sigh.

gandalf

Typedef I think you need to take a step back and read what you have just written !

I sincerely hope you were drunk when you wrote this because it is pretentious crap.

Lets look at all the little aspects of your rant.

"it is being debated" wether or not children born in Ireland of non Citizens

Well at least they are now discussing it. But they need to look at the whole area of refugees and what way they are handled, the time it takes to process the claims and what way to deal with economic migrants.

I couldn't help but think as I was watching that documentary, that this country, resting on it's laurels, protected by NATO, was so guilty of doing nothing to help the people of Sarajevo. Why didn't we do something, why was our lack of action so easily thrown up to UN mandate and all of this country's talk of kinship with the downtrodden left as empty words as the shells fell on Sarajevo?

Ah complete horse****, if I remember correctly Ireland took it a higher proportion of refugees from Bosnia than any other European nation based on our population size. What did you want the Irish Army to go in. Join the real world please.

And what of Milosevic? What was he? What did we do to prevent that infestation? Not enough apparently to prevent him. [2] Tell me what did this country do to remove him? Well we worked within the UN mandate hmm? And for the people fleeing the aftermath of this despot? No citizenship for their children, oh no, they are spongers in the eyes of this compassionate, downtrodden, 'Christian' nation.

Well we are either a member of the UN or not. What do you want Ireland to go on a crusade by themselves. If you haven't noticed Milosevic is been tried at the moment and I am sure he will pay in prison for his crimes. Hindsight is a great gift eh, what would you have done sent in a hit team to take him out or does that not fit into your fluffy bunny world.

This thread really covers 2 different topics. Irish attitudes to immigrants (not foreigners getting too general there my boy) and yes Irish people are like others around the world (surprise, surprise) they do not like change. They especially don't like change if they percieve people are taking advantage of them, even if its only a minority, they don't like change if the government is not been proactive enough to make sure only the deserving cases (ie true refugees) are getting processed and granted citizenship or safe haven and not economic migrants.

Now onto the Bosnian situation. How the hell can we turn around and tell them how to sort out their sectarian problems when ours are still festering away up north? What would you have done to help the situation in Sarajavo back then ?

Oh and btw we are only on the Security council in the last year or so.

Gandalf.

dathi1

I think he has a point on Kosovans and Bosnians etc.. I'm against deportation. Its wrong, Its inhuman to see families and kids with Dublin accents being told out you go is ****. On the other hand I’m completely against uncontrolled immigration as we have now full stop. I also think that the passport for baby scandal that is being used by immigrants as a springboard for their own citizenship is ludicrous. The government say they are doing something about it… but I think its window dressing. Now as for Kosovo and Bosnia...Well its a prime example of the powder keg that is Multiculturalism. A little bit of multiculturalism is ok...but I dont want to see Ireland go down the same road as Oldham, Bradford, Lyon, Nantes, Marseille etc.

Cork

I'm against deportation. Its wrong

What is wrong at deporting people who has exhausted due process?

If kids are born here without one Irish parent - why should the kid get Irish citizenship.

I deplore racisim & I am not anti refugee. But we need to look at the EU and see what they do.

We need to adapt "best practice"

bonkey

For Ireland, I see two absolute paths which can be taken in situations like our reaction to Sarajevo etc.

1) We take the law into our own hands. We throw away any pretence of neutrality, beef up our army, and send it wherever we feel it is needed. Note that this may involve pitting our army against people like the US, should we find ourselves disagreeing with their politics, but if we're going to stick by our righteousness, then we should stick by it.

2) We abide by our alleged neutrality, and try and operate within an international framework, which while imperfect is still a damn sight better than solving all things through nothing but violence.

At the end of the day, option 1 can only lead to a world where might makes right, and where those with the largest armies will be able to dictate how they want things run. Last time the world worked completely like that, we had a few large wars.

Option 2 gives us a chance to evolve beyond our feudal existance. It gives us the possibility of another way. It may not work, but if we dont try it, then it cannot work.

I'm surprised to see Type making suggestions about Ireland using its military to deal with obvious threats like what happened in Sarajevo, because I'm pretty sure he opposed the American "dealing of threats" in Afghanistan, and I'm guessing that he also wont be a fan of their "dealing with threats" in Iraq. Unless you wholeheartedly support such actions, suggesting that the Irish ignore the UN and send their own army off to do similar work is a bit facetious.

Now, gettin back to citizenship, deportation etc. I think the government are right to question the notion that being born in the country by non-national parents should automatically grant you citizenship. I'm not saying that I'm opposed to the idea....but I am definitely in favour of the notion being considered and a decision reached, hopefully as part of an overall reform of our immigration/asylum laws.

As for individual cases of people being deported, there is something which is being overlooked here in the posts to date. People seem to think that we should keep the "good" and kick out the "bad" - that we should go from some form of republic/democracy to some form of meritocracy.

Whats next? "I'm sorry sir, but you're IQ isnt high enough. Get out".

The law is the law. If someone has illegally entered the country, then even if they are on the verge of discovering a cure for cancer, they should not be allowed remain. On the other hand, if they are legally here, then we must accept that we have granted them permission, and they now have the right to remain unless they violate other laws.

The irish government is not looking for "easy" targets to throw out. They are looking for people who do not have the legal right to be here. The problem is that those who are "legitimate" cases, but who entered illegally are much easier to find than those who came here for less honest reasons and still entered illegally.

Yes, at times this clashes with our sensibilities, and our moralities, but we have laws, and we cannot selectively apply them when we wish. We can change them, but until we do, we still must abide by them.

adnans

gandalf is right. in 1992 ireland invited many families from european countries that were getting filled up with the influx of the refugees. i myself was in the first 200 passengers that arrived in dublin. others also came as families were united once again in this strange country (most people i spoke to didnt have a clue where ireland was when we came, and neither did i).

after the serbian aggression was stopped by NATO and US planes, the Dayton agreement was signed and ireland then sent its army forces to bosnia as part of the SFOR (protection force) to help and rebuild the country and to help the peace last. this summer i went back to Bosnia and in front of a small comumnity school in Ustikolina (my grandmother and grandfather live there still), there's a plaque that says "Built by the Republic of Ireland Government" (not sure of the exact text but something similar). who knows how many more were rebuilt? even though Ireland couldnt do much to stop the aggression when it really mattered it's helping the country get back toghether now.

Originally posted by dathi1
...Well its a prime example of the powder keg that is Multiculturalism.

you do understand that most places refugees and asylum seekers come from is ten times worse then in ireland or more. you cant expect people to settle in like nothing has happened. you may not see any physical damage on a refugee or an asylum seeker, but the psychological damage is far greater then anything imagined.

Originally posted by Cork
But we need to look at the EU and see what they do.

if EU was politically prominent as it is now ten years ago, do you think they would have stopped the aggression from ever happening in Bosnia?

adnans

fisifan01

Yes people who are born in ireland should be entitled to citizenship. after all our ancestors the Celts came from Central Europe so technically we are all decendants of immigrants

JustHalf

If you're born in this country, you should get citizenship. How else do you get it?

Now, if you have a kid here, and you're not a citizen, why the heck should you get citizenship?

dathi1

Yes people who are born in ireland should be entitled to citizenship. after all our ancestors the Celts came from Central Europe so technically we are all decendants of immigrants

Looks like we will go the same way as the Tuatha de Danann.

Meh

Originally posted by JustHalf
If you're born in this country, you should get citizenship. How else do you get it?

This isn't the way it works in most other countries. In Germany, for example, even if you're born in the country you won't automatically get German citizenship unless your parents are German.

Now, if you have a kid here, and you're not a citizen, why the heck should you get citizenship?

You don't get citizenship if you are a foreigner who has a kid here. What you get (until recently) is the right to remain in the country to look after your kid, who is an Irish citizen. But the courts have recently decided that you can be deported, even if you have an Irish-born child.

Typedef

Originally posted by Meh This isn't the way it works in most other countries. In Germany, for example, even if you're born in the country you won't automatically get German citizenship unless your parents are German.

Enter Typedef: stage left.
Quoting goodwins law and how it's bad form to call people fascists & nazis on internet fora.

Still it's cathartic to do so.
God damn Nazis!

You don't get citizenship if you are a foreigner who has a kid here. What you get (until recently) is the right to remain in the country to look after your kid, who is an Irish citizen. But the courts have recently decided that you can be deported, even if you have an Irish-born child.

I have said before and I am reiterating now, that I think this move towards denying the right of citizenship to children of 'non-nationals' born in this country is a form of neo-fascism which stems from xenophobia and quasi 'white' supremecist ideology.

Some people call it 'sound immigration policy'.
I call it cultural eugenics.

/rant

The Corinthian

Originally posted by bonkey
Whats next? "I'm sorry sir, but you're IQ isnt high enough. Get out".

I think you may just have something there bonkey...

Meh

Originally posted by Typedef
I have said before and I am reiterating now, that I think this move towards denying the right of citizenship to children of 'non-nationals' born in this country is a form of neo-fascism which stems from xenophobia and quasi 'white' supremecist ideology

Countries that deny citizenship in such circumstances include such notorious fascist dictatorships such as Canada, Finland, Japan and Zambia. You're not going to accuse the Zambians of being white supremacists, are you?

Blade

Originally posted by Typedef
I have said before and I am reiterating now, that I think this move towards denying the right of citizenship to children of 'non-nationals' born in this country is a form of neo-fascism which stems from xenophobia and quasi 'white' supremecist ideology.

Some people call it 'sound immigration policy'.
I call it cultural eugenics.

If you want to continue to line the pockets of organised Nigerian criminal organisations why don't you just sign yourself up for a 419 scam, I'll even give you a few good contacts. You may also not mind handing over your hard earned taxes to pay someone who comes here 8 months pregnant 900 Euro a month in benefits, but personally myself and quite obviously a lot of other people in this country have a serious problem with it. If our immigration policy wasn't being so badly exploited then fine but the fact is that it is and it needs to be reviewed. Babies in this country have for many years been used by Irish people to fleece the welfare system and now you want us to extend this flawed welfare system of ours so it can be exploited by people from outside our country too?

It's about time all this was stamped out, I know of 2 couples who have babies and both the women are pretending that their not going out with the fathers anymore in order to have their rents paid by the state. Where in fact both fathers are living in this free accomodation and when the welfare wants to make an inspection they send them a letter and give them 1 WEEKS notice that they're coming out, so all the fathers have to do is move their stuff out for a few hours and then go back in when their gone. Does this sound like a good system to anyone? What other forms of inspection give advance warnings to people?

Sand

Typedef, ALL these people come to claim asylum from evil dictatorships and whatever else - They come to Ireland not because of its welfare system but back in whatever hellhole they come from they heard of the warm irish welcome etc etc. Lets start with that assumption as it would favour your point of view.

Well assume the unusually high incidence of pregnancies is just a blip - these are poor agrarian economies of course where sexual protection is unheard of and STDs etc run rampant, so its not surprising theyre pregnant. So thats grand.

These people will be judged as to the validity of the threat to them and will be accepted or deported ( well deportation is the theory anyway - you never really hear of it as the norm though) on the basis of the case. Should a kid be born in Ireland in the mean time then she/he should obviously stay with the parents - back to whereever theyre deported.

All removing the automatic citizenship does is remove a method by which *gasp* pretend refugees might use to "skip" the asylum process. Surely if they are all asylum seekers as you claim then they wont be affected by removal of automatic citizenship for kids born here anyway.

Ireland has a duty to take in asylum seekers - it has no duty to economic migrants beyond what it chooses itself, to suit its own needs. Asylum seekers are not affected by this law. The only reason you might have for wanting anybody and everybody to immigrate (by fair means and foul it seems - this is your sound immigration policy?) is a bit of the old cultural eugenics you accuse others of.

Typedef

Originally posted by Blade


If you want to continue to line the pockets of organised Nigerian criminal organisations why don't you just sign yourself up for a 419 scam, I'll even give you a few good contacts. You may also not mind handing over your hard earned taxes to pay someone who comes here 8 months pregnant 900 Euro a month in benefits, but personally myself and quite obviously a lot of other people in this country have a serious problem with it. If our immigration policy wasn't being so badly exploited then fine but the fact is that it is and it needs to be reviewed.

Do you have any actual facts,figures &/or evidence to support this claim or is this just some randomly racist rant?

Babies in this country have for many years been used by Irish people to fleece the welfare system

Actually yes, you're right, girls become pregnant to defraud the state, well umm thanks for clearing that up Mother Teresa.

and now you want us to extend this flawed welfare system of ours so it can be exploited by people from outside our country too?

Us? We? Actually I'd like it if this country wasn't so cowardly in offering sometimes the 'Grandchildren' of Irish ex-pats the right of citizenship and the same wonderful country has the audacity to turn and shout "J'Accuse" to someone black entering this country (as most of the "defrauders" as you so aptly put it are Nigerian in origin), and attempt to deny the right of citizenship to a child born here! Since when is it ok to cherrypick who can and can't be Irish [1].

It's about time all this was stamped out

Spoken like a true humanitarian.

I know of 2 couples who have babies and both the women are pretending that their not going out with the fathers anymore in order to have their rents paid by the state.
Where in fact both fathers are living in this free accomodation and when the welfare wants to make an inspection they send them a letter and give them 1 WEEKS notice that they're coming out, so all the fathers have to do is move their stuff out for a few hours and then go back in when their gone. Does this sound like a good system to anyone?

Well then lets not stop at deportation, lets go the whole hog and just stick the lot of them into camps. Oh but, wait I forgot, it's ok for the Irish to 'defraud' the state because the girls who get pregnant and are just trying to get benefits from your hard earned taxes are white or (ours) hmm? But if you are black and come to Ireland from the garden spot[2] that is Nigeria, well then you must be suck hmm?

[1]Since someone decided to persecute the blacks on the grounds of 'welfare' fraud I'd say.
[2] Warning in advance, if you don't agree with my views you probably don't want to read this article, it may actually make you think about your mono-theistic and disowned racism.

pencil

Originally posted by Blade


It's about time all this was stamped out, I know of 2 couples who have babies and both the women are pretending that their not going out with the fathers anymore in order to have their rents paid by the state. Where in fact both fathers are living in this free accomodation and when the welfare wants to make an inspection they send them a letter and give them 1 WEEKS notice that they're coming out, so all the fathers have to do is move their stuff out for a few hours and then go back in when their gone. Does this sound like a good system to anyone? What other forms of inspection give advance warnings to people?

Yeah, as far as I can see this biggest running joke in the country, fraudulent behaviour like this needs to be cracked down on heavily.

I also know two couples who are doing exactly the same, neither 'fathers' are unemployed (both are electricians & earn a bloody good wage). I have pointed out to both that they are actually stealing money from me - but get the standard Irish response - 'Ahh everyone else is doing it'.


Typedef: I don't think Blade was agreeing with behaviour.

Xterminator

I just want to point out that economic migrants who enter the country under the false pretenses of fleeing for there lives (e.g. true asylum seekers) are defrauding us, the tax payer.
(Obviously this does not apply to genuine asylum seekers).

Now being guilty of fraud is hardly a good reccomendation to keep them on here. Anyone guilty of this deserves to be deported. now I'm not saying weshouldnt take economic migrants, just not the ones who lie and defraud to enter the country.

I have no problem with economic migration. When there is a labour shortage in certain areas, it will benift us to have economic migration. But economic migrants should be vetted for criminal records, etc. to ensure we dont get undesirable criminal types in.

X

gandalf

As Xterm said economic migrants are fine if we have a skills shortage in that area. What are not wanted are people taking advantage of the social welfare system. What you fail to realise is that these types of economic migrants or in non PC term "spongers" are making it more difficult for true refugees fleeing from oppression to get their voice heard and to be processed and sorted out in the present system. You also have to recognise that there are those in Irish society who do not like change and all the advantage takers are giving them ammunition for their arguements.

The time has come for a proper structure to immigration just like they have in Canada, Austrialia or the US.

Just because your born in a country should not mean you have the automatic right to citizenship of that country, it should also be determined by the citizenship of your parents as well.

Gandalf.

dathi1

Absolutely. I think the best example for Europe would be immigration policies as advocated by Pim Fortuin






NO TO NICE MORE POWER FOR THEM LESS FOR US!

Blade

Originally posted by Typedef
Do you have any actual facts,figures &/or evidence to support this claim or is this just some randomly racist rant?

Yes I prepared a 300 page book of evidence especially for you last night. What part of the entire paragraph that you quoted have you a problem believing? Who the hell do you think smuggles these people into the country and organises false documentations, lends them 3,000 Euro so they look self sufficient and sets up false English schools? The tooth fairy? No, it's criminal organisations from China to Nigeria that you would gladly see continuing to profit from our flawed immigration system.

Actually yes, you're right, girls become pregnant to defraud the state, well umm thanks for clearing that up Mother Teresa.

Now that just shows what a complete idiot you are, I never said Irish girls became pregnant in order to defraud the state, I said that in Ireland babies have been used to defraud the state as per the example of the two couple I gave. Theres a difference so stop trying to twist my words.

Since when is it ok to cherrypick who can and can't be Irish [1].

Apparently they cherrypick the people who they feel deserve it.

Spoken like a true humanitarian.

I am a humanitarian but unlike you I have no sympathy for anyone who tries to take money from my pocket.

Oh but, wait I forgot, it's ok for the Irish to 'defraud' the state because the girls who get pregnant and are just trying to get benefits from your hard earned taxes are white or (ours) hmm? But if you are black and come to Ireland from the garden spot[2] that is Nigeria, well then you must be suck hmm?

Again this proves as already spotted by Pencil that your talkin cr@p. I NEVER said it was ok for a white Irish girl to defraud the state, I thought I made myself quite clear of that. Can you not read English? Or are you just twisting all my comments to lamely try and justify the cr@p your spouting on this thread?

Warning in advance, if you don't agree with my views you probably don't want to read this article, it may actually make you think about your mono-theistic and disowned racism.

Jesus Christ man you are such a sap, you sound like a 17 year old college student whos never done a days work in his life. WTF is your point here? That because 1 women might be stoned to death in Nigeria that we have an obligation to allow every single Nigerian into the country? She herself would be let in because shes being persecuted but that doesn't mean the entire country should be. Oh dear thats just made me a racist!

Typedef

Originally posted by Blade

Now that just shows what a complete idiot you are

Kindly refrain from making abusive posts, it just shows you up to be a sore looser.

Regards
Typedef.

BEAT

Originally posted by Blade
That because 1 women might be stoned to death in Nigeria that we have an obligation to allow every single Nigerian into the country? She herself would be let in because shes being persecuted but that doesn't mean the entire country should be. Oh dear thats just made me a racist!

this is my question...I can understand someone trying to escape such persecution, but why does everyone else have to be let in, cant the amount of these people being let in be cut in half by them having to prove escaping such events? Unless they are being directly affected by these happenings why are these people still being let in? I ask because now everything is getting stricter as far as non-eu people finding work because of so many immigrants in Ireland, why dont they just stop taking asylum seekers unless they can prove involvment in persecution?

Blade

How many people have agreed with anything you've said on this thread? My last post alone catches you out lying twice about me in the 1 post alone. Sorry pal but your the looser here like you always have been. Didn't you leave the boards a while back because everyone was giving out about what a muppet you are? Why did you bother coming back?

Blade

Originally posted by BEAT


this is my question...I can understand someone trying to escape such persecution, but why does everyone else have to be let in, cant the amount of these people being let in be cut in half by them having to prove escaping such events? Unless they are being directly affected by these happenings why are these people still being let in? I ask because now everything is getting stricter as far as non-eu people finding work because of so many immigrants in Ireland, why dont they just stop taking asylum seekers unless they can prove involvment in persecution?

That is in theory how it works Beat, they do have to prove that they are genuine asylum seekers to achieve asylum status here, thats not where the problems lies. The problems which you should have read on the rest of this thread stem out from people skipping the asylum process in various ways due to the loop holes in our immigration policies. Being an asylum seeker in Ireland entitles you to 20 Euro a week, crap accomodation and doesn't allow you to work in the country. This is why most claims for asylum are dropped after the first interview because the person normally finds a better way of staying in the country, either by having a child here or burying themselves into the black economy or just leaving the country to chance their arm in another EU country when they know they haven't a hope here. This is another problem the EU want to get rid of because they feel that if someone has already gone through a process of asylum in one EU country and failed then it should be accepted that this person isn't a genuine refugee and should not waste another countries resources and time going through the same process again.

So it's not a case BEAT that the flood gates are open and everyones just walking in no questions asked, as much as Typedef would like to give automatic citizenship to anyone who sets foot in the country.