50% drop-off in computer course applicants this year

Bard

IRELAND.COM reports:

Number of students opting for computer science halves
By Sean Flynn, Education Editor
_
The number of Leaving Certificate students opting to study computers at third level has fallen by more than 50 per cent, in a development which will cause alarm across the State's high-tech sector.

First preference application figures to the Central Applications Office (CAO) - seen by The Irish Times - suggest college entry points for computer courses are set to decline dramatically.

The number opting for computer courses as their first preference at third level has declined from more than 10,000 last year to just in excess of 5,000 in the current year.

But the figures also show some small resurgence of interest in science courses after a long period in which demand was declining.

As a result, college entry points for science may actually increase marginally, countering the general trend which will show a drop in points for courses.

On the basis of the CAO final first preference application figures compiled in recent weeks, college entry points for courses in business and arts may decline marginally.

But in the university sector points could actually increase in the social studies/humanities area; students are increasingly looking to these more secure areas of employment as they move away from the computer sector.

The CAO figures show only 3 per cent of students have chosen computer courses as their first choice university degree, compared to 7 per cent last year.

The trend is equally dramatic in the institute of technology (IOT) sector for both degree courses and for certificate and diploma courses.

For degree courses, the number of students is down from around 1,700 to 1,200 but for cert/diploma courses the number has halved from over 6,000 last year to less than 3,000 this year.

Education sources say students are turning away from computers because of the difficulties in the high-tech sector, especially in once fashionable Internet sector. The good news for students is that CAO points for computer courses will now decline dramatically. But the trend will worry large multinationals like Intel who need a steady stream of high-calibre computer graduates.

The Government and business will be heartened, however, by the resurgence of interest in science courses. Over 200 more students have selected science as their first choice for a degree compared to last year but in the IOT sector the percentage of students selecting science as their first option has almost doubled.

The final CAO figures also show a continued high level of interest in a teaching career, despite the ASTI strike. The number opting for education courses as their first choice in university has increased from 991 to 1,274.

The final first preference applications to the CAO do not give a definitive figure of demand for each course. These will change in the light of the CAO offers next Tuesday but they indicate the overall trend.

Last year in total over 10,000 opted for computer courses as their first preference for degrees in the universities, institutes of technology and cert/diploma courses in the IOT sector. This year, the figure is just over 5,000.

The Leaving Cert results will be made available in schools tomorrow. This year the number who sat the exam - 56,800 - was the lowest for more than a decade. In 1995, some 68,000 candidates took the exam.

The steep decline means fewer students are chasing more places at third level. This should see a continued decline in the points requirements, though the number of mature students opting to return to college means the decline in points will not be as dramatic as the Leaving Cert figures might suggest.

Lenny

This could mean good news for the people like me..

Draco

Not a surprise. a lot of people did CS courses as they seen lots of money in it. Now there is a slump they're not interested.

anthonymcg

Infacta nice one. This'll mean the people who were just in it for the money are gone. This'll result in better quality people getting the better jobs.

damnyanks

This is the best news I've seen for a while! My leaving results come out tomorrow and all my coures are computer based courses!

All I have to do now is make sure I didnt screw up royally!

wish

I agree with you there anthonymcg, but having said that I would also like to say that there should be a min cut off point, in order to insure that the people comming in are of a min calibre.

I know this sounds really bad, but some people get in due to the low points, who just do not have what it takes.
Like when I was in 2nd year, some one in my class asked a demonstrator what a for loop was. Come on for god sake. That person could not or would not grab the concept of a loop in 1st year.

Due to this industry down turn over all there will be less ****eHeads taking up CS just for the money.
I think the employers will much more choosier, and people who dont know what they are taking about will end up on their respective asses. People with talent will get what they are worth.

EvilGeorge

50% thats some drop, what happens if a college don't get sufficent nos to run the course - is it dropped ?

Draco

AFAIK if they offer a course they have to give it. It may not be offered again though.

seamus

That's grand. More money for us.

Bad though for the economy, if a shortage occurs, and gets really bad, companies could pull out of Ireland, or at the very least it would discourage co's from setting up shop here.

The way I see it, a lot of developing countries are poised to take the tech jobs anyway, 'cos of low costs etc etc. The government may be forced to offer incentives.........

Lenny

Originally posted by Draco
AFAIK if they offer a course they have to give it. It may not be offered again though.

They don't have to offer it, Thats why the same college asks you to put in a choice 2 and 3 if the first one is full/not enough people

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Yep OJ's right they can drop it.
I believe one of the IT's dropped film studies or the likes about a week ago because only 3 peeps applied.

--
I suppose this drop stems from the drop in numbers doing science subjects for the LC, and hence in turn not having done the mandatory science subjects that the CS courses require.

Dont blame them tbh. I did 8 subjects...All Non-Science !!

BTBB

I agree that this is probably a good trend, but only for this year. Of course I'm slightly biased as my results are out tomorrow and all 4 of my choices are computers. There will indeed be better candidates applying as the glamour of computing disappears.

Being good at Half-Life doesn't qualify you for computers - which I'm sure counts for a good few applicants. There are those though who are just good at computers on the other hand who mightn't be good at school in general who will get into computer courses now.

As for those already working purely for the money, they will be overshadowed by better people as companies thin out and realise that they can't support such big staffs.

BTBB

Draco

Originally posted by OJ
They don't have to offer it, Thats why the same college asks you to put in a choice 2 and 3 if the first one is full/not enough people

Wha'? So your saying if I wanted to do say Electrical Engineering, the college would ask me to put down two other courses as well? That's sh!te. If it's offered through the CAO I'm pretty damn certain that the course has to be given. Particular modules within the course may not be give due to lack of interest, but that is a different matter.

Wook

Maybe i am getting very old skool here but this is good news.
all those little ****ters that just study CS to get a salary job and sit on their asses all day well f*ck them !
I know guys in manager positions (IM = Information technology?)
that doesnt even know a simple dos command.
Girls that create databases and doesnt even have a computer at home.. personaly i cant understand that at all.

There used to be a time that there was honour in 'knowing'.
I still remember 'Basic' and our discussions about it.
I was hooked on programming txt adveture games on my C64 (modified with reset button) . it was different.. a bit like the 'Hackers manifesto'

Draco

Originally posted by Wook
Girls that create databases and doesnt even have a computer at home.. personaly i cant understand that at all.

Now that's just silly. So they don't have a PC. Their job is just a job, rather than being an extension of their hobby. How is not owning a PC going to impact on their ablity to create databases. That's an elitist attitude that turns people away from doing CS courses.
So a manager doesn't know DOS commands. whop-dee-oo. He's a manager, not a techie.

SheroN

from what i've seen, any hard core techie's make ****e managers. usually coz they've got the communication skills of a washboard.

EvilGeorge

from what i've seen, any hard core techie's make ****e managers. usually coz they've got the communication skills of a washboard.

Can half agree with you on that one, mainly because I've seen come go on and make a hash of it and others do it quite well , might depend on personality , ability to cope and adapt.

I know another manager from a completely non techie environment , the worst thing in management I have ever seen.

Now back to the point, unless the jobs start picking up these nos may not increase.

Soes anyone know if the ppl trying to do work experience as part of their course have had probs getting jobs ?

Bard

Basically my expertise is in computers, the Internet, web development, etc. - I'm looking to (finally!) back that up with a piece of paper (i.e.: a degree) and so I've enrolled in Trinity for an evening degree course in Business and I.T. starting in October.

When I see numbers dropping off like this, it concerns me... makes me wonder if it's actually going to be worth my time (4 years) and my money (many thousands of euros) going for this particular course if the jobs are still going to be few and far between. I want to believe it's worth it and I'm leaning in that direction... someone convince me!

This is where my experience, interest and expertise lies - I just want to strengthen and consolidate it by studying and achieving a degree in it... sounds sensible, yeah?

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Good for you Niall. Hope it all goes well.
I have the utmost admiration for mature students. It takes a lot of balls to make the committment (both perosnal and financial).
Gluck

--
Draco,
you might want to take a look at this page...

1. COURSES IN THE 2002 HANDBOOK WHICH HAVE BEEN CANCELLED:

http://www.cao.ie/general/Changes_notitle.HTM

stevoslice

Originally posted by EvilGeorge


Soes anyone know if the ppl trying to do work experience as part of their course have had probs getting jobs ?

Yep i'm on work experience now, and i had terrible trouble finding a job, eventually went out and asked any place with a computer, and finally got one after about 2 months.
About half of the people in my course didn't get any co-op at all so the universityhad to run some kind of new module for those that were left behind!!!

Draco

Originally posted by 80project

Draco,
you might want to take a look at this page...

http://www.cao.ie/general/Changes_notitle.HTM

Hmmm...must let my boss know about this (for those that don't know I work for a college dept.)

zAbbo

as for the money grabbing people who apply for computer courses, most of them fall on there arse, when going through the IT route(as IT courses are stepped in years/drafts/rounds), if you don`t make the cut, you`re outta here etc.

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Heres another off-shoot to doing CS...
'Computer geek' genes 'may be linked to autism'

hmmm...that may explain some of the muppetry around here of late.

JustHalf

Thebhoy, you in Maynooth?

Gerry

Most of the money grabbing people haven't fallen on their arses, thats a vain hope bazh.

In maynooth, most of the people who I thought would not make second year, are now going to make it into fourth year. The college authorities are disgusting me, basically they make a supreme effort to get everyone through in any way possible, if this involves dropping the standards then they'll do that also. The amount of course material which has been glossed over or skipped completely is not funny. Most of the class have absolutely no interest in computers whatsoever, but all the college seem to want to do is get more and more disinterested students, instead of a smaller group of enthusiastic ones. Quantity over quality, all the way.

If it was a golf tournament, the cut would be set at around 200 over par, so you could make it through with your eyes closed.

I lament the fact that about 25% of the year are actually interested in computers, some of this 25% seem to be afraid of showing this, in case their ****-cool friends will sneer at them, even though these ****-cool people are also doing the course! IMHO, if messing about with computers and programming occupies none of your time, you shouldn't be allowed into the course.

I think that if standards were higher, a lot of people who know their stuff about computers but aren't bothered getting a qualification would change their mind. They would see that this would actually improve their skills hugely.

Wook

Originally posted by Draco
Now that's just silly. So they don't have a PC. Their job is just a job, rather than being an extension of their hobby. How is not owning a PC going to impact on their ablity to create databases. That's an elitist attitude that turns people away from doing CS courses.
So a manager doesn't know DOS commands. whop-dee-oo. He's a manager, not a techie.

i am wondering how they can be good or even improve if they show no interrest...

b20uvkft6m5xwg

Good points you make there Gerry.
Perhaps a practical should be introduced like the way it is needed for certain art and music courses.

I know peeps who went into it soley for the promise of some cash at the end of the day, and have hated every minute of CS (in Trinity and UCD at least). I just cant understand why you would do something that you have no interest in. I mean college can be hard enough at the best of times, at least you want to be doing something you like. Having said that, alot of people do law for the exact same reason (skulks in chair:p)

Kalina

I don't think dropping the points is a good way to get people into cs courses... well maybe in the short term it is. People will think the courses are far easier than they actually are and apply for them. Then when they get there they realise that it's twice as hard as they imagined and struggle and fail. Just like I did.

Stephen

Points have no relationship to the difficulty of a course, and anyone who applies to the CAO without realising that is an utter twat and deserves whatever pain they get

Draco

Originally posted by Wook


i am wondering how they can be good or even improve if they show no interrest...

So a person can only improve themselves out side of work hours? Personally, I leave my work at work. I don't sit at home reading about apache/samba/what ever I'm working on. That doesn't mean I can't improve or learn about these things.

SheroN

nah it's a well known fact draco, real computer gurus work all day then go home and sit in front of a computer untill they sleep.