Reclaim the Streets

JustHalf

The last RTS (when the Gardai decided "I'll assault who I like!") was a joke. No formal protest. No real sense of organisation. A couple of people throwing back cans.

It was very difficult to take seriously.

Of course the Gardai going mental was completely unacceptable (predictably tagged "state repression" by the SWP, as opposed to "police brutality"). But I don't see how exactly it's a protest, when most (if not all) of the advertising invited people along to a party?

The next one will have more people going along "for the laugh" than the last one, because of what happened. It will be harder to take seriously.

It seems to be a bit of a joke, to be honest.

And Gerry, I'd just like to tag you with the nickname "CommiePhil"

androphobic

Sorry for going off topic for a minute but would you mind not referring to the protestors as "students and wasters" or "students and layabouts", etc, etc?

Sand: I also take exception to your remark about free college education. Some of us work damn hard to pass our college exams and support ourselves - 30 hours of lectures plus 20 hours working plus study etc isn't exactly an easy ride you know.

It seems that whenever the topic of protests comes up some people are too quick to point the finger. Sure there are students involved but for god's sake, there are tens of thousands of students in Dublin alone.. talk about a huge generalisation.

What are you so bitter about?

[Rant over, sorry]

Lawnkiller

each protest0r should be given a brief questionaire to fill out to see if they understand the purpose of the protest...or sumfin

it seems that most ppl either support the ideaology or don't give a damn.

i haven't vote on this...yet.

Gerry

Originally posted by JustHalf
blah blah blah

And Gerry, I'd just like to tag you with the nickname "CommiePhil"

I'm not a communist, just not as jaded and high and mighty as Sand or yourself.

photty

Originally posted by Sand
And you make it better by adding to the blockages?- ah right its really just an incredibly smart way to make a point about congestion- increase it!!!
...
Until there *is* an alternative that is useful, all youre doing is annoying the hell out of an already stressed population. In that spirit I hope the Gardai beat the everloving snot out of the RTS.

There already is an alternative. You know how to ride a bike right? You also seem unhappy about the public transport system in Dublin so why not cycle to this high pressure job of yours or even participate in a Critical Mass event instead of sitting back and waiting for it to happen. For me CM have much clearer goals than RTS but the underlying discontent with public transport puts them on the same team. Critical Mass organise bike rides through Dublin the last friday of every month. Meet at Garden of Rememberence on Parnell Sq. 6-ish I think.

By the way Sand this wasn't you was it??
http://flag.blackened.net/revolt/wsm/news/2002/critmassAPR.html

DadaKopf

CM is more defined because it makes one simple, resounding point: "Cyclists aren't blocking traffic, they are the traffic".

RTS's goals are so much more widespread. It has much more to do with the reclamation of public space from commercial control and state control than just traffic congestion and pollution.

CM makes a point about the lack of cyclable streets; RTS uses the car as a symbol of the loss of communal space that seems to have risen with the rise of free market capitalism. RTS is therefore part radical ecological-protest, part critique of free market capitalism, part street-party but always an act of civil disobedience.

The rise of late-capitalism is directly correlated with the rise of the car and the increasing control of public life by business and government. RTS emerged, partly, as a reaction to the Criminal Justice Act in Britain that outlawed spontaneous gatherings; shopowners on O'Connell St. tried to bring in a similar bye-law last year and now we have the Public Order Act that many assert is a threat to civil liberties. The difference between the Criminal Justice Act and the Dublin bye-law and Public Order Act is that the latter two are economically motivated - people cannot spontaneously gather because it's a threat to profit-making. So legislation in this country, and others, is being geared more toward economic interests rather than human ones.

By addressing pragmatic, economic issues, successive governments in Ireland have increased overall prosperity but have created totally unsustainable ways of living. This has to be changed and protest is a legitimate means to a desirable end.

I'm not a bitter socialist, I'm just someone who thinks that laws/government action that threaten civil liberties and social and ecological health in the interest of money and not people is fundamentally wrong. Beneath this pattern of laws lies a particular political-economic ideology which many believe to be fundamentally flawed and which should be resisted.

RTS operates by symbolically, but literally, reclaiming these spaces, turning this contradiction on its head. It makes public urban space social, not economic. It (and CM) makes the streets spaces for everyone except cars, which are understood as a symbol of the contradictions of our economic system. RTS is an act of civil disobedience but one which I think is justified. Considering that the Republic of Ireland was attained through acts of civil disobedience, simply commenting that it's wrong because it's against the law misses the point entirely.

If I was to make any criticism of RTS, it would have to be that more of an effort has to be made this time to get the ideas across to people more.

pencil

DadaKopf

Well said, that gets my vote for post of the week.

Biffa Bacon

RTS's goals are so much more widespread. It has much more to do with the reclamation of public space from commercial control and state control than just traffic congestion and pollution.

That’s all well and good, but I still don’t understand the goals of RTS in practical terms. Is it arguing for the right to close off streets and hold carnivals there whenever they want? Or do they just want more pedestrianised streets? Why not be clear about this? Because when you aren’t clear about your goals, as the organizers of RTS aren’t, the event just comes across as being entirely self-serving.

RTS is an act of civil disobedience but one which I think is justified.

Again, this is the problem with the movement. There’s absolutely no point in civil disobedience if no-one knows why you’re doing it. Are you protesting against laws prohibiting people from impeding traffic at will, or are you protesting the right of cars to travel down these streets? Is it just the streets the protest takes place on that you want closed to cars, or are there others as well? Do you want them closed off all year round, or just on certain days? Has anyone even thought these things through?

Considering that the Republic of Ireland was attained through acts of civil disobedience, simply commenting that it's wrong because it's against the law misses the point entirely.

This is something of a side-issue, but I think it’s an absolute disgrace that every single person taking place in these events isn’t arrested. Either it should be against the law, in which case those breaking it should be punished, or else it shouldn’t, in which case the laws prohibiting it should be repealed. But this business of just getting the participants to disperse is me eye.

DadaKopf

This link might help to explain things a little better: http://www.crimethinc.com/library/situa.html. It doesn't refer to Reclaim the Streets at such but explains much of the ideas behind it.

There's also good info on http://reclaimthestreets.org/links.html

Turnip

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon
This is something of a side-issue, but I think it’s an absolute disgrace that every single person taking place in these events isn’t arrested. Either it should be against the law, in which case those breaking it should be punished, or else it shouldn’t, in which case the laws prohibiting it should be repealed. But this business of just getting the participants to disperse is me eye.

Does anyone know how the Public Order Act will affect this thing? Shall we see a few arrests or what?

Unlike the violent protests like we saw at Genoa and elsewhere this is an event I vaguely support because it has less anarchist/socialist purely political motivations. I would hope the organisers are using the legal means available to advance their aims as well.

Biffa Bacon

I understand why people want to reclaim the streets from cars, but I don’t understand how they plan on doing it. The links you gave shed no light on this at all. I can only assume that the answer to the question I put earlier, “Has anyone even thought these things through?” is a resounding “No”, and my suspicion that “…the participants don’t really care if anything is achieved as long as they have their day out”, is correct.

Interestingly, I did find the following quote here:

Won't the streets be better without cars? Not if all that replaces them are aisles of pedestrianised consumption or shopping "villages" safely protected from the elements. To be against the car for its own sake is inane; claiming one piece as the whole jigsaw. The struggle for car-free space must not be separated from the struggle against global capitalism for in truth the former is encapsulated in the latter. The streets are as full of capitalism as of cars and the pollution of capitalism is much more insidious.

Maybe this opinion doesn’t reflect the views of all RTS participants, but shouldn’t those who agree with it own up to their real agenda?

ReefBreak

Not if all that replaces them are aisles of pedestrianised consumption or shopping "villages" safely protected from the elements

LOL, ROTFL, etc, etc.

"So what we're saying here, roight, is that we want Dame Street replaced with a loike, you know, a big field."

Can I change my "Don't Know" to "No"?

DadaKopf

There's no 'real agenda' beyond popular consent in RTS - everyone is welcome to exchange and discuss ideas from many points of view. Nothing in RTS is dictatorial. Like I already said, it is connected with a critique of capitalism.

One other comment: think about Temple Bar. It's car free but it isn't public space - it's run by Temple Bar properties, a semi-state economic venture, run by Temple Bar proprietors in their interests. RTS may as well reclaim Temple Bar from commercial control as other parts of Dublin from the car. Remember, the car is a tangible symbol but RTS's critique extends far beyond just traffic problems.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by DadaKopf
And you don't, for a second, consider RTS has anything to do with the greater good? While the RTS protester's point is sustainable and community-based.

No. Just another excuse for an almost exclusively middle class group of twits and SWP bandwagoners to fight de powah. These fads come and go.

Yours is selfish and self-defeating.

Selfish - absolutely, but there lies that old argument about human nature (which is OT here). That it is self-defeating is simple conjecture upon your part. Certainly any evidence would presently point to it being more practical than any idealistic fist waving.

I might turn up though to watch the fun from a distance though.

Release the hounds.

Biffa Bacon

Originally posted by DadaKopf
There's no 'real agenda' beyond popular consent in RTS - everyone is welcome to exchange and discuss ideas from many points of view.

If there is no "real agenda" then what do you expect it to achieve? Surely you must concede that it's an entirely self-serving exercise?

It wasn't me!

Hell, I think it's a great idea and I will be there if I possibly can. It would be wonderful if we could clear out the city centre of cars. Wonder if this new sign-system is going to help that at all.

Crash

I'm gonna be at this one, not to protest, but more to get information on what they're protesting about specifically. Personally i support a more pedestrianised city, cus i'm sick of ****e public transport and getting nearly run over.

Sand

Sand: I also take exception to your remark about free college education. Some of us work damn hard to pass our college exams and support ourselves - 30 hours of lectures plus 20 hours working plus study etc isn't exactly an easy ride you know.

I know - Ive done it myself. However Arts students seem to have the time to pursue their worthless ( toliet paper has more practical use than an arts degree- what would you rather have? ) degrees whilst at the same time polluting public space with their whinging, illogical and plain annoying rants, protests and posters.

I'm not a communist, just not as jaded and high and mighty as Sand or yourself.

Thanks for the vote of confidence.

There already is an alternative. You know how to ride a bike right?

This really makes me want to slap you around a bit but Im a nice guy so ill just ask you to give me an estimate of how long itll take me to travel ooooh 15-20 miles ( conservtive estimate- suffice to say im not even in county dublin) in rain and hail to my place of work right in the city centre - you might as well tell me that the simpsons is an alternative to studying for passing exams.

By the way Sand this wasn't you was it??

Nah but Ive got to say I laughed when I heard what happened - a blow struck for the common people against the student brigade imho.

"Every time we heard a number of the cars and trucks toot their horns we cheered and punched the air with our fists."

i.e we really did our best to rub it in their faces that we were slowing them up - did our best to provoke them. Then shock horror we found out that very stressed ppl *can* be pushed too far and he wasnt taking our ****. Personally Id give the guy a medal. Sure, what he did was technically wrong but the greater good was served. If some guy was to kill Hitler, youd have to congradulate him even if murder is wrong.

That said I can see how acting like gob****es on bikes and pissing off drivers trying to get home - seemingly you pick Fridays cos its more fun to piss off ppl trying to get home so they can head out- can be seen to be a lot of fun to gob****es aka students. Just why they pretend theyre making a political point is beyond me though.

This has to be changed and protest is a legitimate means to a desirable end.

No its just an exscuse for arseholes to act like arseholes- nothings accomplished whatsoever except their need to justify their persecution complex. Theyd rather not act a lobby group because thats hard, it requires effort, planning and an actual concise vision of what youre trying to achieve. All RTS have, as you so clearly presented, is a rambling, confused, unfocused exscuse for a pissup which is far more fun than lobbying anyway. Just be honest - with yourself at the very least- and stop pretending youre doing ppl a favour here.

gandalf

Well I've been thinking about this RTS stuff a little more. And the more I think about the more angry I get that people who in the main have not contributed to society are threatening to grind the city to a halt over wishy washy aims. I want a decent public transportation system, the very lack of one is the reason I bought a car in the first place.

I am paying thru the nose in Tax, Tax on Fuel, NCT & then Insurance to actually use my car. I would warrent that most of the RTS brigade are hardly paying any income tax and they are telling me that I cannot drive my car in the city. I repeat if there was a efficient viable alternative I would sell the car and pocket all that money it would save me from not using it.

I'm reading here about Global Resistance etc and how this is about fighting corporate entities and the system, what pathetic claptrap. If you have a problem with Government demostrate outside the Dail, if you have a problem with a Corporate entity, demostrate outside their headquarters but to effect the ordinary citizen from going about their own business is selfish, stupid and counter productive.

Gandalf.

Turnip

Originally posted by The Corinthian

No. Just another excuse for an almost exclusively middle class group of twits and SWP bandwagoners to fight de powah. These fads come and go.

Hey. I'm middle class. I studied at Trinity. My dad owns a successful business. I make good money in my chosen career. What's wrong with any of that? Got a chip on your shoulder about your lack of social status or success? Too bad buddy. Work harder. Don't come whining at people like me just because you're bitter and jealous.

If this thing was to be co-opted by a beer company and made a regular event would your attitude change? As for it being a "fad". What does that mean? Give us an example of another "fad". I'll bet some of the same people involved in this are involved in the music, arts and cultural scene. I might disagree with their politics but I don't see anything wrong with that. If I refused on principle to go see any group or artist whose personal politics I disagreed with I'd probably never leave the house.

As long as the focus is on offering the public free outdoor music, art and entertainment (it's got to turn out to be better than those bloody clowns in meeting house square) rather than boring us with pathetic SWP anti-american garda baiting then I don't object. Sure it might inconvenience a few people. But purely commercial events like concerts at Slane and matches at Croke Park are far more inconvenient for locals. Anybody object to them?

photty

Originally posted by Biffa Bacon

Again, this is the problem with the movement. There’s absolutely no point in civil disobedience if no-one knows why you’re doing it.

I think the reason is a general dissatisfaction with what western society has become. Dominated by large corporations, increasing voter apathy with people less interested in mainstream politics (and no wonder when you actually do vote on something the government decides to just ignore the result because they don't like it). I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons too.

I don't agree with everything these people do (in particular I hate images of anti-globalisation protesters ripping apart beautiful other peoples european capitals) but it's clear that something is not right and it needs to be addressed. Again I come back to the environmental issues of public transport and improved inner city living conditions. This is just one aspect but we could do so much better in Ireland. I have seen other citys that are really light years ahead and we can have that too. This is where the focus should be. It seems with the recent traffic changes in the city that theres a shift in the right direction. Even if that has been tainted by in fighting and office politics.

photty

Originally posted by gandalf
I am paying thru the nose in Tax, Tax on Fuel, NCT & then Insurance to actually use my car. I would warrent that most of the RTS brigade are hardly paying any income tax and they are telling me that I cannot drive my car in the city. I repeat if there was a efficient viable alternative I would sell the car and pocket all that money it would save me from not using it.

This is exactly what I'm talking about. People rightly have the attitude that they worked damn hard for their car so they're gonna damn use it every chance they get! I mean they pay enough for it, right?

I'm guessing a lot of people feel the same way gandalf. I still think that even if there was a good public transport system you would be very tempted to use the car. Quite a few Irish people seem to think the using public transport is somehow beneath them. Something best left to students, OAP's and the less fortunate in our society. That's the real issue here. Who wants to be on a smelly 16A right?

I mean you could sell your car right now and cycle to work if Dublin was a bike friendly city (which it's not). Anything around 15-20km is manageable once you get used to it. It helps if theres showers in you're work place too . Point is that people can make a difference right now if they so choose.

But at the end of the day you do work hard for you're motor and you do have the right to drive it where and when you like. Thats today. In the future I can imagine thats not going to be the case with, I hope, more restrictions on inner city traffic being introduced.

photty

Originally posted by Sand
This really makes me want to slap you around a bit but Im a nice guy so ill just ask you to give me an estimate of how long itll take me to travel ooooh 15-20 miles ( conservtive estimate- suffice to say im not even in county dublin) in rain and hail to my place of work right in the city centre - you might as well tell me that the simpsons is an alternative to studying for passing exams.

It's simply an alternative. I'm not suggesting you do it in the pouring rain. But 15-20 miles on a good road bike isn't that much. It would take you just over an hour or so at medium effort if you are relatively fit. You should consider it for the summer. Are there no bus routes either? You could drop the car in the nearest satellite town and take the train or bus some days. My point is you don't have to sit in traffic jams (if bus lanes are clear).

Personally Id give the guy a medal. Sure, what he did was technically wrong but the greater good was served. If some guy was to kill Hitler, youd have to congradulate(sic) him even if murder is wrong.

Nothing technical about it. Intentionally running a cyclist over is manslaughter if he did it in a fit of rage. Lucky for the rider he got out of the way in time. Hitler? It's not nurenburg you know.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Turnip
Hey. I'm middle class. I studied at Trinity. My dad owns a successful business. I make good money in my chosen career. What's wrong with any of that? Got a chip on your shoulder about your lack of social status or success? Too bad buddy. Work harder. Don't come whining at people like me just because you're bitter and jealous.

Where on Earth did you get that ridiculous interpretation of what I said? Nothing is wrong with working, being successful or middle class - outside of a propensity to feel morally responsible for everything, which I suppose was my point.

I’ve never met a SWP member who was actually working class, for example. Almost all radicals in western society appear to come from a specific demographic which indulges itself for a few years before slipping back into the more acceptable (and conservative) mindset of self interest. They’ll still vote Labour though.

As for “Got a chip on your shoulder about your lack of social status or success” - ROFL

If this thing was to be co-opted by a beer company and made a regular event would your attitude change? As for it being a "fad". What does that mean? Give us an example of another "fad". I'll bet some of the same people involved in this are involved in the music, arts and cultural scene. I might disagree with their politics but I don't see anything wrong with that. If I refused on principle to go see any group or artist whose personal politics I disagreed with I'd probably never leave the house.

Demonstrations and marches are fun. We’ve had countless ‘people powered’ campaigns, demonstrations, occupations and marches over the years. Did camping outside Greenham Common make a bind bit of difference? No. But many activists saw it as an ideological rite of passage to take part in the 80’s. Poll tax, Pro-life/pro-choice anti-globalisation; regardless of the validity of these campaigns or their success, they come and go and remain only as a faint memory once they burn out.

This ‘Reclaim the Streets’ campaign is just another one. A chance for a few of the aforementioned demographic to go out and feel heroic in their fight against ‘da pawah’ and for groups such as the SWP to adopt as their own so as to aid their never ending need to recruit new members (Most of their members last less than a year before seeing through them, as such their churn rate is to high to be an effective political group. There’s a few old skool still there from my day, but I don’t mind them as I know that they’ve got to make a living somehow and the SWP is all they have left).

As long as the focus is on offering the public free outdoor music, art and entertainment (it's got to turn out to be better than those bloody clowns in meeting house square) rather than boring us with pathetic SWP anti-american garda baiting then I don't object. Sure it might inconvenience a few people. But purely commercial events like concerts at Slane and matches at Croke Park are far more inconvenient for locals. Anybody object to them?

Normally, if you want to offer the public free outdoor music, art and entertainment that may disrupt traffic and business in the area you get permission. You organise it so as to cause as little disturbance as possible. Tell me; will RTS be supplying people to clean up any litter caused by the day after the fact?

People do object to commercial concerts and some have been stopped as a result.

The SWP are fairly harmless. I would be more concerned with the odd group that would consider violence to be the reson d’etre of the day.

Sand

Hey. I'm middle class. I studied at Trinity. My dad owns a successful business.

Turnip dont take this the wrong way, but Id already guessed that from your attitutde:)

If this thing was to be co-opted by a beer company and made a regular event would your attitude change?

Not really, but Id be blaming Carlsberg for example instead of RTS students.

As long as the focus is on offering the public free outdoor music, art and entertainment

Giving the RTS organisers (heh) the benefit of the doubt by assuming they have a focus to begin with, a political protest by definition is not a music, arts and entertainment cultural event.

People rightly have the attitude that they worked damn hard for their car so they're gonna damn use it every chance they get! I mean they pay enough for it, right?

And what Gandalf actually said was......

I want a decent public transportation system, the very lack of one is the reason I bought a car in the first place.

It's simply an alternative.

Sos walking the 15 - 20 miles. Its a pretty *simple* alternative too.

Nothing technical about it. Intentionally running a cyclist over is manslaughter if he did it in a fit of rage. Lucky for the rider he got out of the way in time. Hitler? It's not nurenburg you know.

I can honestly say Id cheer that driver for what he did. I personally believe there wouldnt be a court in the land who would convict him given the provocation - if there is any justice left in a world where thieves get bigger sentences than scum who rape their children anyway. Either way, you can be glad it wasnt me- Id have probably reversed back over you to make sure. Hitler dead= good thing, arts students crying= equally good.

shotamoose

Originally posted by The Corinthian

I’ve never met a SWP member who was actually working class, for example.Almost all radicals in western society appear to come from a specific demographic which indulges itself for a few years before slipping back into the more acceptable (and conservative) mindset of self interest.

I don't know many SWP members so I can't comment on that, but I'm assuming that you're reemphasising here your earlier remark that those who attend RTS were 'almost exclusively middle class'. I know it's a qualified generalisation, but it's a dodgy one.

Firstly, define working class and middle class in the Irish context. I think the boundaries have been blurred in recent decades with the blurring between 'working class' and 'middle class' occupations. So I'm wondering on what grounds you're basing your statement on class. I hope you're not just assuming that people who go to RTS are middle class, as that would be just silly.

Similarly, if the couple of previous RTS events I've been to have been anything to go by, there'll be plenty of working people there. I'm presuming that you're not going to claim that none of them are working class, since that could imply that only the unemployed actually are 'working class' and that would also be silly.

Another question is why you concentrate on the SWP. Sinn Fein's got pleny of working class members and plenty of radical policies, for example. Tony Gregory's a long-time working class radical. So's Tom Hyland - not an anti-capitalist, but radical in his way. Maybe you just meant a certain type of radical - the type that fits your great big generalisation.

Even if your generalisation wasn't so dodgy, I'm not sure it would mean all that much in the first place. So idealists get selfish as they grow up? That doesn't mean the ideal is wrong, but it does imply to me at least that economic self-interest gets in the way of ideals (and that in turn makes me question why some proud car-owners are so keen to call protesting students selfish).

But maybe you weren't interested in being accurate, maybe you were just trying to discredit RTS and other more or less socialist movements.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by shotamoose
Firstly, define working class and middle class in the Irish context. I think the boundaries have been blurred in recent decades with the blurring between 'working class' and 'middle class' occupations.

Social class is a blurred and inaccurate scale of measure. However, working class would tend to be formally uneducated and blue (not-necessarily trade) rather than white collar (not-necessarily professional) in background. Most left wing activists involved in the more modern new age flavour of radicalism are well educated and come from white collar, often professional, backgrounds. Their numbers begin to slowly dwindle from the moment they notice how much has been taken out of their first paycheque after.

Even if your generalisation wasn't so dodgy, I'm not sure it would mean all that much in the first place. So idealists get selfish as they grow up?

No that the idealists were briefly idealists for all the wrong reasons.

But maybe you weren't interested in being accurate, maybe you were just trying to discredit RTS and other more or less socialist movements.

Fair cop gov - And just as I was getting ready to oil the wheels of capitalism with the blood of the workers. Buffone.

gandalf

Originally posted by photty


This is exactly what I'm talking about. People rightly have the attitude that they worked damn hard for their car so they're gonna damn use it every chance they get! I mean they pay enough for it, right?

Man talk about missing totally what I was saying. If there was a viable public transport system in place I would sell my car tomorrow and save myself a fortune. I do not like driving but thanks to our pathetic transport system if I want to work, have a social life I have to.

I'm guessing a lot of people feel the same way gandalf. I still think that even if there was a good public transport system you would be very tempted to use the car. Quite a few Irish people seem to think the using public transport is somehow beneath them. Something best left to students, OAP's and the less fortunate in our society. That's the real issue here. Who wants to be on a smelly 16A right?

ROFLOL. Again I don't care how I get somewhere. When I worked on the Northside I had to get 2 buses to work. If I missed the first bus in the morning I was f**ked because all the other arrived full and passed us by. If you did get on it was dangerously overcrowded. I was then relying on a connecting bus outside Liberty Hall and if I missed that I was late and there was only so many times I could tell the boss "Eh I missed the bus" so the only choice was a car. That was over 6 years ago and I believe the buses have gotten worse since then. If they build, maintain it and ensure it runs on time I'm there.

I mean you could sell your car right now and cycle to work if Dublin was a bike friendly city (which it's not). Anything around 15-20km is manageable once you get used to it. It helps if theres showers in you're work place too . Point is that people can make a difference right now if they so choose.

Thats fine if your in a job where you don't meet customers and theres shower facilities available. If however you are like me and most of the people in my company where you have to meet clients & partners its not really a option to turn up sweaty now is it.

But at the end of the day you do work hard for you're motor and you do have the right to drive it where and when you like. Thats today. In the future I can imagine thats not going to be the case with, I hope, more restrictions on inner city traffic being introduced.

No actually I work hard to get the money I earn and I hate wasting it on a depreciating asset like a car with all the additional costs associated with one. I am also for restrictions on inner city car traffic providing they are putting proper Public Transport provisions in place before they impliement the restrictions.

Gandalf.

Turnip

Originally posted by The Corinthian

Social class is a blurred and inaccurate scale of measure. However, working class would tend to be formally uneducated and blue (not-necessarily trade) rather than white collar (not-necessarily professional) in background. Most left wing activists involved in the more modern new age flavour of radicalism are well educated and come from white collar, often professional, backgrounds. Their numbers begin to slowly dwindle from the moment they notice how much has been taken out of their first paycheque after.

I'd class people who've been educated in RTC's as being working class. They may have got the points to go to a decent university to study middle class professions like law or medicine but for economic reasons they had to go down to some substandard boghole down the country. At least that was the way it was when I was a student. Working class people also go on things like FAS courses. So to say they tend to be formally uneducated is incorrect. I'd also class people who work in unskilled jobs in places like call centres (done it myself but only briefly) on 16k or less as being working class.

Anyway mark my words - it won't be long before the city makes an event like RTS a regular occurrence with better organisation. It'll probably end up being sponsored which may upset the purists but they can't have it all their own way. It's up to the creative types to come up with new ideas that make the city a more enjoyable place to live in.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Turnip
I'd class people who've been educated in RTC's as being working class.

LOL - You are so going to get flamed

I'd also class people who work in unskilled jobs in places like call centres (done it myself but only briefly) on 16k or less as being working class.

Only the nouveau riche believe that.

Anyway mark my words - it won't be long before the city makes an event like RTS a regular occurrence with better organisation.

You mean when it goes commercial? :rolleyes: