Reclaim the Streets

Borzoi

Interesting definition of class there turnip, not one I'd subscribe to myself, but that's irrelevant.

RTS have a number of problems:
1) They have no clear goals. Maybe they know what they want, but very few others do.

2) They have no clear leadership, hard to deal with a mob.

3) They have no clear opposition, their demonstrations effect the public, who are the prople the are trying to help.

4) They are associated (rightly or wrongly) with anti-globalisation groups and left wing radical groups, which automatically means mainstream authority is not inclined to deal with them, and the public will have little sympathy for their cause.

As a result, I suspect that they'lll just fade away.

Turnip

Originally posted by The Corinthian

LOL - You are so going to get flamed

Schools in working class areas are not exactly Gonzaga standard so students will not be able to attain the same points levels needed for high demand courses in universities. Although a percentage of working class people who want to succeed badly enough will succeed in moving up the social and economic ladder.

You mean when it goes commercial? :rolleyes:

The idea will be taken by the city and improved. Bureaucrats like those in the city council are useless at coming up with ideas. They need them to come from the creative community. However, the creative community needs the business community to help make cultural events viable.

JustHalf

Turnip = Cabbage?

DadaKopf

Hey, if you want to discuss class, start a new thread, please. This one is about RTS.

DadaKopf

Originally posted by Turnip
The idea will be taken by the city and improved. Bureaucrats like those in the city council are useless at coming up with ideas. They need them to come from the creative community.

Firstly, have a look at http://www.dublin.ie/Strategy%202012.asp - lots of ideas there.

However, the creative community needs the business community to help make cultural events viable.

Not really. There's no reason why people can't have cultural events that are completely free of commercial interests. That's the point of RTS.

Turnip

Originally posted by JustHalf
Turnip = Cabbage?

A totally irrelevant six syllable post. Heh.

You have got to be one of the gibbering straight D student welfare cases that was packed off to some RTC or other because it was free and easy to get into rather than because you knew what you wanted to do with your life.

Well done.

Seriously though, since Corinthian uses the term "middle class" as an insult directed at RTS people then is class not an issue? Like I said, in this case I believe personal politics or party affiliations are largely irrelevant because RTS appears to me to be a cultural and artistic event first and a political one second.

I'll check out that site later Dadakopf.

photty

Originally posted by gandalf
Man talk about missing totally what I was saying. If there was a viable public transport system in place I would sell my car tomorrow and save myself a fortune. I do not like driving but thanks to our pathetic transport system if I want to work, have a social life I have to....snip ...That was over 6 years ago and I believe the buses have gotten worse since then. If they build, maintain it and ensure it runs on time I'm there.

We agree on that. However, I still think RTS and CM have a part to play in achieving the goal of better transport for the capital. Protesting raises awareness and gets people talking about it. I suspect we will agree to disagree on that one. But just look at this thread for example.

Thats fine if your in a job where you don't meet customers and theres shower facilities available. If however you are like me and most of the people in my company where you have to meet clients & partners its not really a option to turn up sweaty now is it.

Point taken. I'm a dirty code monkey so it a lot easier for me.

No actually I work hard to get the money I earn and I hate wasting it on a depreciating asset like a car with all the additional costs associated with one. I am also for restrictions on inner city car traffic providing they are putting proper Public Transport provisions in place before they impliement the restrictions.

The next step should be a restructuring of the way Dublin Bus charge. A zone system should be introduced where you can go between buses with the same time based ticket. E.g. i want to cross 2 zones and my ticket will last for 2 hours. I can travel as much as I want in those 2 hours with this one ticket thaty cost 4 or 5 euros or whatever. Also bus and dart/luas ticketing should be unified and operate on the same zones.
This kind of system is in operation in many many european citys with great success. How we get this in place I'm not sure but the current pay per stage of the journey effort is utter ****e.

JustHalf

Originally posted by Turnip
You have got to be one of the gibbering straight D student welfare cases that was packed off to some RTC or other because it was free and easy to get into rather than because you knew what you wanted to do with your life.

I'm expecting to graduate from NUI Maynooth this year with a First in Computer Science and Software Engineering, something I've always wanted to do as a backup in case my artistic endeavours fail.

Thanks for the completely inaccurate insult. That, sir, is what we call a prejudice.

I'm too fed up to anti-troll.

DadaKopf

Or, alternatively, they could adopt London Bus's charging scheme: 75p to go anywhere. The same scheme operates in Boston and New York - if it operates anywhere else, let me know.

Dublin Bus would make more money on the shorter journeys but encourage more people to use the bus so they'd recoup their losses on the longer journeys. It would also get rid of fare-dodging as there's only one price.

deco

The greatest weakness of democracy is letting the voters have their way....

Streets where made for cars...

Let the debate end their.

bonkey

Originally posted by DadaKopf
Or, alternatively, they could adopt London Bus's charging scheme: 75p to go anywhere. The same scheme operates in Boston and New York - if it operates anywhere else, let me know.

Dunno if they still operate it, but the metro/bus system in Lyon used to be fixed-price. You bought a ticket which was valid for 1 hour (and Lyon isnt that big) except for return journeys. So your bus/metro/bus combi was one ticket, which cost the same as getting a one-stop lift to the shops.

Worked very well. Especially combined with the ruthless fare collectors. Team of 4 get on a bus. One at front door, one at back door, two in centre door. Fifth man stays outside and checks the tickets of everyone getting off. By the time the bus got to the next stop, they had checked everyone. If you didnt have a ticket you had a choice - fork over the cash immediately (200F at the time, I think) or get out at the next stop and have your details taken.

jc

The Corinthian

Two problems with attempting to change the pricing system for public transport:

1. The CIE group is subsidized to a very low extent in comparison to it's European counterparts. As such many of the pricing models suggested simply won't work because the figures won't crunch.
2. Trying to get the unions in the CIE group (esp. Dublin Bus) to agree to anything is somewhere between a nightmare to impossible.

Nonetheless, the subject of bus fares is going seriously off topic.

Turnip

Originally posted by The Corinthian
I’ve never met a SWP member who was actually working class, for example. Almost all radicals in western society appear to come from a specific demographic which indulges itself for a few years before slipping back into the more acceptable (and conservative) mindset of self interest. They’ll still vote Labour though.

I know what you mean. But take Rimbaud for example. He came from a good background, began rebelling in his mid teens, spent a few years reinventing poetry and raving about the "derangement of all the senses" then finished his literature career by the time he was 21 or 22 after which he went off to become a merchant. So was he "wrong" to be "radical" in his youth just because he'd get bored with it one day and decide to make some cash? His ideas and work inspired many a movement in the 20th century it has to be said.

I don't think RTS is all that radical really. The city council site Dadakopf pointed out features some plans I'm sure RTS people would agree with.

As for “Got a chip on your shoulder about your lack of social status or success” - ROFL

Ok I went OTT there but I'm sick of the term "middle class" being used as an insult by people who want to be middle class own their own homes have 2 or 3 holidays a year and the rest of it.

Did camping outside Greenham Common make a bind bit of difference? No. But many activists saw it as an ideological rite of passage to take part in the 80’s.

It didn't make a difference in getting the missiles removed but it did help politicize many women. They couldn't vote not so long ago so I thought it was quite an important milestone in female empowerment more than anything else.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Turnip
So was he "wrong" to be "radical" in his youth just because he'd get bored with it one day and decide to make some cash? His ideas and work inspired many a movement in the 20th century it has to be said.

His actions would not engender to me any movement that would follow the teachings of a man who ultimately did not take even his own words too seriously.

I don't think RTS is all that radical really. The city council site Dadakopf pointed out features some plans I'm sure RTS people would agree with.

You will get a radical element there. It’s inevitable. Most, though, are harmless.

Ok I went OTT there but I'm sick of the term "middle class" being used as an insult by people who want to be middle class own their own homes have 2 or 3 holidays a year and the rest of it.

Class has very little to do with money, house ownership and holidays. It’s largely a state of mind and identity.

It didn't make a difference in getting the missiles removed but it did help politicize many women. They couldn't vote not so long ago so I thought it was quite an important milestone in female empowerment more than anything else.

That’s arguable. I could equally argue that Thatcher’s political success also empowered many women. We would both be right. We would also both be talking sh1te.

Turnip

Originally posted by The Corinthian

His actions would not engender to me any movement that would follow the teachings of a man who ultimately did not take even his own words too seriously.

If that's the case, I suggest you have a look through your books and CD's and throw out anything created by anyone who has been influenced by his work. I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit here.

Class has very little to do with money, house ownership and holidays. It’s largely a state of mind and identity.

What state of mind? What identity? I'm intrigued.

That’s arguable. I could equally argue that Thatcher’s political success also empowered many women. We would both be right. We would also both be talking sh1te.

Can you think of any other time in recent history when 50000 women congregated in pursuit of a political aim? It'd be interesting to track them all down now and see if their activism had any bearing on the direction of their lives. Of course Thatcher was an important icon for women. In particular she showed conservatives (who tended to be chauvinistic in the past) that women can do jobs as well as, and in many cases, even better than men.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Turnip
If that's the case, I suggest you have a look through your books and CD's and throw out anything created by anyone who has been influenced by his work. I'm playing devil's advocate a little bit here.

If the book/CD is enjoyable, why? I kind of like some of the Manic Street Preachers work, but I still think the underling political message they promote is self indulgant toss.

What state of mind? What identity? I'm intrigued.

The topic of another thread, methinks.

Can you think of any other time in recent history when 50000 women congregated in pursuit of a political aim?

Again arguable.

Chaos-Engine

Perhaps I'm jumping the gun here a bit but...

"RTS/EU Car Free day" is on SUNDAY next. Not a week day

For most you hard working family provider types sunday is a day to spent with your family.
What student has a lecture on a sunday?
Who is in such a hurry to speed through town on a sunday?
What serious commerical loss will result from the reduced traffic?
I actually think shops will do more business next sunday from protesters using them. Cars just speed by. There is no money in cars. Just hassel...

DadaKopf

European Car Free Day: http://www.22september.org/

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by The Corinthian

Nonetheless, the subject of bus fares is going seriously off topic.

No it isn't you pasta-munching cretin. It's a vital part of an alternative proposal to the system against which RTS is currently protesting.

The CIE group is subsidized to a very low extent in comparison to it's European counterparts. As such many of the pricing models suggested simply won't work because the figures won't crunch.

Exactly. So you have to come up with alternative proposals which are reasonably costed so that you can present a political argument which can be used to beat politicians with at election time.

eg 'Here's a system. Here's how much it will cost. Here's what the average traveller will pay. Now we think that improvals to the ease of use of the public transport system will increase the number of travellers by x amount. The shortfall is y million euro. The benefits to society will be

a greater willingness to use public transport leading to reduced car use; more comfortable driving conditions for those who still have to/want to use their cars a more flexible work force who are actually able to get to work in these God-awful business parks with clogged carparking spaces less stress involved in so doing leading to a slightly improved quality of life ....and that's without mentioning pollution

So armed with that you ask Mr Coathanger-Smile the local TD what his position is on these eminently sensible proposals when he comes knocking on your door at election time, making it clear that your vote is contingent on a positive response.

Trying to get the unions in the CIE group (esp. Dublin Bus) to agree to anything is somewhere between a nightmare to impossible.

I'm sure a good Italian boy like yourself knows how to deal with unions. You just 'make 'em an offer they can't-a refuse'

JustHalf

I'll be in town on Sunday, ready to kick some crusty face.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
It's a vital part of an alternative proposal to the system against which RTS is currently protesting.

No. The whole problem with the RTS is that it doesn't have any defined alternative propsals.

I'm sure a good Italian boy like yourself knows how to deal with unions. You just 'make 'em an offer they can't-a refuse'

Sure, ask your ma. She never refused.

Chaos-Engine

Originally posted by The Corinthian

No. The whole problem with the RTS is that it doesn't have any defined alternative propsals.

It is right in your face and you still can't see it.
The objective is:

To remove cars from the city centre and return the spaces occupied by cars to the citzens of the city.

It is as plain and simple as that. You DON'T need a new alternative to cars. They were invented before the car was. They are called Bicycles and buses.
Don't moan about the cost of a bus fare.
A yearly bus pass is still many times cheaper than running a car for a year even though buses are over priced compared to the rest of europe..

Another alternative is perhaps Car clubs.
You don't own a car. You are in a club that owns many cars. You pay a small yearly members fee and then per kilometre(25c per km) that you use the car and petrol of course. You book the car in advance(12hrs or more) and then pick it up at your local depot(train stations and stratgic locations through out the city)...
This system is in use widly through out Scandinavia, Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, Italy and it is starting to catch on in the London area.

You happy???

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by The Corinthian

No. The whole problem with the RTS is that it doesn't have any defined alternative propsals.

So some of us here have defined a few.
RTS creates the mood. Others serve up the substance. What's your problem?

Sure, ask your ma. She never refused.

Trying to get this thread closed too? Like the one in which you insulted my grandfathers before I could reply? That's brave.

Italian, are you, by any chance?

Turnip

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine

You happy???

Sad fact is that some people would rather sit in their cars gridlocked for two hours a day than use a bicycle and muss up their hair.

I have a car but I use the train for work and I use buses to go into the city in the evenings and at weekends. Makes sense. Lots of people do need their cars to get around but many do not.

RTS seems pretty straightforward to me. They're asking people to consider a shift in the mindset we're stuck in re: the use and abuse of public space. But as far as I can make out, some people here lack either the intelligence or imagination to work it out and need to be spoonfed like bloody babies.

seamus

Originally posted by Chaos-Engine

It is as plain and simple as that. You DON'T need a new alternative to cars. They were invented before the car was. They are called Bicycles and buses.

Surely the car was created before the bus?

Don't moan about the cost of a bus fare.
A yearly bus pass is still many times cheaper than running a car for a year even though buses are over priced compared to the rest of europe..

All well and good, except that buses aren't feasible ways of getting around in Dublin.

• Almost every bus in Dublin travels more-or-less radially, ie from somewhere into the centre centre. Buses which don't enter the city centre and quite rare.
• Bus timetables are rarely accurate, and dynamic information is unavailable to almost all travellers. So if a scheduled bus is cancelled, no-one knows about it, and is left waiting.
• Many routes are chronically underserviced, particularly those through dense suburban areas.

I live in Lucan. 2 of my brothers live in Lucan, another lives in Tallaght. My parents live just past Blessington. My gf lives in Terenure, and almost all of my friends live in the Dublin 16/6W area. I go to college in UCD and work in Donnybrook.
The only direct bus to UCD leaves at 7:30am and returns at 5:30pm. At all other times it takes at least 2 and 1/2 hours to traverse the city by bus. The same goes with travelling to Terenure/Templeogue. For this reason, buses are useless to me. My bike is worth it. If I want to see my gf or my friends or my brother or my parents, I can do it at anytime of the day, and can return home whenever I feel like it. If I'm working til 12am, I don't have to fork out €25 to pay for a taxi home. I haven't got time to sit around waiting for buses and to use them, and I'm 20 - any plans I make usually have a lifespan of about 20 minutes, I need flexibility. I'm all for getting people onto buses and getting cars out of the city centre, but RTS need to be badgering the CIE and the Government, not the population as a whole. Even if you ask people to limit the use of their cars, they'll refuse, because they're paying a serious amount of cash to have the thing, they're going to want as much use as possible out of it. People need to be convinced that they can ditch the car completely, or move from a 2-car family, to a 1-car family.

Another alternative is perhaps Car clubs.
You don't own a car. You are in a club that owns many cars. You pay a small yearly members fee and then per kilometre(25c per km) that you use the car and petrol of course. You book the car in advance(12hrs or more) and then pick it up at your local depot(train stations and stratgic locations through out the city)...
This system is in use widly through out Scandinavia, Germany, The Netherlands, Belgium, Italy and it is starting to catch on in the London area.

An extremely good idea, which has been considered, but our insurance costs would kill it. Chances are, people under 27 wouldn't be allowed use it. And again, buses that travel close to the depot would need to be extremely regular, or people wouldn't want to use the service.

RTS, to have any real effect need to address the cause of our problems - namely infrastructure and co-ordination. For a 'developed' country, our overall infrastructure is crap. Poor bus services, woeful train services, awful roads, few motorways,(relatively) poor telecommunications networks, etc etc. Dublin City council introduce a new system and the Minister for transport is never consulted. They create a ring designed to keep cars out of the city, and yet all the major carparks are inside the ring. Obviously they never consulted city planning officials. The problem is that many areas of our government are still being run like they were when Ireland was poor and badly lacking in everything - ie Someone comes up with an idea, and just implements it, on their own authority, based on the fact that "They have a system like this in Germany/England/France". I've gotta stop typing now or I'll never stop.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
Trying to get this thread closed too? Like the one in which you insulted my grandfathers before I could reply? That's brave.

I didn't get any thread closed. You and Turnip did with your clueless racist rantings. I only questioned your grandfather's courage after you questioned my grandfather's courage. And for that you can go fsck yourself and your whore mother, as far as I'm concerned.

Italian, are you, by any chance?

Irish-Italian - but unlike you, I have a clue what it means to be either.

bonkey

Originally posted by seamus
All well and good, except that buses aren't feasible ways of getting around in Dublin
....
An extremely good idea, which has been considered, but our insurance costs would kill it. Chances are, people under 27 wouldn't be allowed use it. And again, buses that travel close to the depot would need to be extremely regular, or people wouldn't want to use the service.

See, this is the type of thinking which exacerbates the existing problem. Its like saying "AIDS kills people. Therefore, there's no cure for AIDS, so why bother looking for one".

Youre looking for current problems and saying this is why RTS cant work. RTS is saying "these are the problems. If enough ppl make noise, maybe someone will think about looking for solutions".

For example : you are correct that there are major problems with Dublin's radially-oriented transport system. Great for in-and-out of city centre, but thats not how the city functions any more.

Solution 1 : Everyone needs to buy their own car, because the bus system is broken

Solution 2 : The bus system needs to be completely reworked, so that it becomes a useful option once more.

I dont see why option 2 is impossible, so I dont see why the current system is the issue.

Now, lets look at the other concept - car-clubs vs. high insurance in Ireland.

Thought 1 : Insurance will not permit this to work, therefore its a bad idea.

Thought 2 : If I can afford to buy a car, and pay for my insurance on that, there is no reason why I cant rent a share in a car and pay for my insurance on that instead. Given that I'm driving less often, it should be possible for an insurance company to offer some reduced insurances, based on the number of days you drive....or even implement "non-fixed-term" insurance systems - a "Ready To Drive" if you will. Couple this with considerations whereby your insurance type may place restrictions on the car type you can hire, and Roberts the Brother of Your Mother.

While I do not agree with the manner in which RTS protests often end up being carried out, I do agree with much of the basic ideals behind it.

It boils down to one blindingly simple concept for me : The solution to the broken system is not to put more cars on the road. The solution is to find out how to fix the system, so the cars can be removed.

Any idiot can point out the flaws in a system. Pointing out the ones without solutions is a lot tougher, and unsolveable problems is about the only argument against the RTS ideal - whatever about their methodology.

jc

p.s. Corinthian and Homer....chill. If you must insist on aggravating each other, why not do it via PM where you're not p1ssing everyone else off as well. This discussion doesnt need your backbiting.

Blade

Originally posted by Hairy Homer
Trying to get this thread closed too? Like the one in which you insulted my grandfathers before I could reply? That's brave.

Italian, are you, by any chance?

Your the one trying to get this thread closed when u started with your personal insults again on this thread:

' No it isn't you pasta-munching cretin '

&

' I'm sure a good Italian boy like yourself knows how to deal with unions. You just 'make 'em an offer they can't-a refuse' '

Any idiot with even half a brain like yourself can see you started first again as you did on the other thread you got closed. I don't know if you got to read my post to you before amp edited it but your very brave behind a computer screen. I don't think your going to be around these boards for too long anyway.

gandalf

Hairy Homer I normally send a PM when I warn people but in your case I'm not.

READ THE RULES before you post next time. If you post anything else on this forum that wiffs of racism I will ban you from here for good.

Corinthian & Turnip please keep this thread on topic or it will be closed and I may take action against you as well.

Gandalf.

DeVore

When Gandalfs done ... daddy'll come to spank you.

And not in a good way.

DeV.