My Opinion about people on these boards.

dathi1

Isnt it great that 1984 didnt make the mistake of trying to limit itself to a timeframe so that people could say "what a load of crap" once it became obvious that society was not progressing at the pace that Orwell imagined.

The time frame is irrelevant its the substance of the story that matters.
EU plans to enforce electronic data storage
13:50 20 August 02
NewScientist.com news service
European Union member states could be forced to keep records of all electronic communications for at least one year under a proposal leaked to civil rights campaigners.
The draft Framework Decision, formulated by the Belgian government, proposes that telecommunications companies within the EU should retain records of all telephone calls and email messages for at least 12 months.
(not that I mind the Lithuanian Police force trolling through my email)

The mathematician in me, in fact, would hazard that there have been sufficient views of the future written in the past 50 years that at least one of them was statistically likely to hit close to the mark, which means that Orwell's writing may be nothing more than lucky co-incidence, further weakening your position.

You're right Orwell was way off the mark. So subtle is the politics of control now via media and other means you're convinced that we're heading into a European Democratic State were everybody will have a great time and equal status.
I'm just a thought criminal.

Typedef

Originally posted by smiles

The make up of Northern Ireland's religious groups is unimportant to the British Government at this stage.

Not entirely ture Fio. The Church of England is 'still' the official religion of the UK and the British Monarch is 'still' recognised as the head of the Church of England.

Granted Prince Charles has stated that if he were ever made King he would want to be 'head of all churches', thus distancing himself from the one particular religion.

Nevertheless, it was fact that the Northern State was structured such that the more property you owned, the more voting rights you had. In practice this meant that the ostensibly more affluent Northern Unionists (who are by and large Protestant of some genre) had more votes than the Catholic (who are by and large Catholic). Added to this was a practice know as GerryMandering or the drawing of constituencies such that particular candidates were more likely to get elected and that process was wieghted again in the favour of the Unionists who were also Protestant.[*]

As it stands now, there is effectively joint authority in the North and peace is creating an environment for greater prosperity.

Again kids peace and harmony is what is ultimately important, that is largely what the civil rights marches up North were about to begin with.

[*] I have attended exactly two Protestant Schools in my life, I was born into a Secular Family, which was once a Catholic family.
I've been Typedef... it's been real.

bonkey

Originally posted by dathi1
The draft Framework Decision, formulated by the Belgian government, proposes that telecommunications companies within the EU should retain records of all telephone calls and email messages for at least 12 months.
(not that I mind the Lithuanian Police force trolling through my email)

Now, you see, this is more of it.

First of all, the people who are being asked to store these data already have complete access to it. You trust them to carry your data, but you wouldnt trust them to store it?

Or maybe you feel that the reasoning behind the requirement is somewhat sinister? No more sinister than requiring a bank to keep a record of all its transactions for 7 years (current minimum I believe). Do you have a problem with that? What about the personal profiling the bank runs on you because of this store of data it is forced to amass about you? Still happy? There is nothing new in this legislation except the arena it is being applied to. If anything it is putting a widely accepted practice (accountability) into an arena which has long lacked it.

This isnt a loss of personal freedom. If it is, then its a freedom we have willingly given up in so many areas that I fail to see why this new one is in any way important. I also fail to see a single reason why we should have a problem with it.

Lithuanian police reading your email? Have you considered the use of PGP, GPG or one of its ilk? No-one is forcing you to transmit anything sensitive unencrypted.

Finally, I think the Belgians will quickly realise the impracticality of what they are proposing when they discover exactly what volume of data we are talking about here. This is yet another piece of ill-conceived legislation - not because its a bad idea, but because its impractical.

The time frame is irrelevant its the substance of the story that matters.

If the timeframe is irrelevant, then whats its relevance to today, or our future?

Orwell predicted a future that has failed to come to pass. If you believe otherwise, then you really do need t lighten up on the old conspiracy reading.

You are now saying that by removing a timeframe from this, it somehow becomes more relevant? Why? If the timeframe is irrelevant, then there is no reason to believe Orwell is predicting our future at all. Or if he is, it cvould be 1,000 years down the road. He is discussing a reality alternate to our own, but which bears some small similarities. If the substance is important, then its telling us "be grateful you dont live in this world". Well, I dont live in that world, and I am grateful.

Face it. You wrote a piece of futurustic scaremongering. Your bluff was called. You're not Orwell, and every defense of him is only showing why your original piece should be taken less and less seriously.

jc

dathi1

Orwell is predicting our future at all.

I don't think he was trying to predict anything...but we can all learn from writers like Orwell to stay on our guard..i.e.: Power block consolidation like Nice etc..

First of all, the people who are being asked to store these data already have complete access to it. You trust them to carry your data, but you wouldn't trust them to store it?

I'm not sure if your well up in the IT department bit emails are not stored by your ISP for surveillance purposes...track records of mail routes and finger printing perhaps..but not direct storage.

Lithuanian police reading your email? Have you considered the use of PGP

Not if they introduce more legislation aka Clintinesque chip based pc that only the government has the key to..PGP or not.

volume of data we are talking about here. This is yet another piece of ill-conceived legislation - not because its a bad idea, but because its impractical.

not true.. a years worth of email + phone calls can be easily compressed and stored on a temporary rack server system.

You're not Orwell

never said I was

why your original piece should be taken less and less seriously.

I was wondering why you were responding so much.

bonkey

Originally posted by dathi1
I'm not sure if your well up in the IT department bit emails are not stored by your ISP for surveillance purposes...track records of mail routes and finger printing perhaps..but not direct storage.

I never said they stored it. I said they have complete access to it.

Not if they introduce more legislation aka Clintinesque chip based pc that only the government has the key to..PGP or not.

Which is completely useless if the data stored on the machine has been encrypted via a third-party mechanism they have no control over.

The simple fact is that cryptography is still stronger than cryptanalytic techniques. The only way this could be prevented is not only by controlling access to your pc, but also by controlling the software you run on it, the websites you connect it to, the hardware you attach to it, and so on and so on.

not true.. a years worth of email + phone calls can be easily compressed and stored on a temporary rack server system.

I think you should go ask someone like esat (or whatever theyre called these days) about the volume of traffic they process daily. You might be surprised.

Now sure, if you limit it to voice and email, you might have manageable quantities, but then again, once you do that, the people wanting to avoid surveillance will use something else. Ultimately, your only option is to track all traffic, because any of it may be useful. You need to track source and destination. You need to track *from* that destination, or else simply international relays will be enough to foil any such surveillance.

In short, once someone with half a clue about IT and IT security looks at the issue, it can be made very clear that the problem is intractable without storing all traffic, everywhere, and even then is probably computationally impossible to resolve. And that volume of data, I assure you, is impossible to store for any period of time. The mere cost of leeching it off without crippling performance is prohibitive.

In short, even if the legislation is not doomed, it cannot work. Its pointless.

Ergo, while you may see it as a loss of personal freedom, I see it as scaremongering.

Oh, and in case you're wondering, I've been in IT for 10 years, am well versed in IT security, have a passing interest in cryptography and cryptanalysis, and know people working with networks where the limits of modern technology really are limiting them. I have had the conversations about the feasability of such legislation and can guarantee you 100% that it is impossible for it to work.

And no, I'm not bragging - you wanted to know if Im up on IT. I am. Its my job.

jc

PHB

If a EUv2.0 did happen it would hopefully be based on proportional representation, and not on the stupid US system.
In which case Germany/France/UK would have a lot of control, compared to now when they have a lot of control, compared to the past when they had a lot of control.
Get over it

Hairy Homer

Originally posted by gandalf

As regards Michael Collins & Padraig Pearse and all that died in 1916 I hold those men in the highest of regard. They fought for something like soldiers and didn't shoot taxi-men, bomb school girls and other so-called "legitimate targets" in the back as the so-called "freedom fighters" of today have.?

Ohh dear me Gandalf. That one's a whopper. Read that nice Mr Myers in the Irish Times and he'll put you right. He regularly dredges up dastardly republican atrocities from the War of Independence (ie the one that Collins was active in)

Ironically, many of them seem to have come from a little pamphlet called 'The Good Old IRA' published by the Republican publicity machine in the early 1980s. It provided a litany of atrocities carried out by the IRA in the Tan War taken from contemporary newspaper accounts and it was intended to prove 'that lot were even more bloodthirsty than we were'

Still, I reckon an Irishman has more right to fight for Belfast as a yank has to fight for Afghanistan.

IndiaSkye

I'll keep this simple. I absolutely agree with you Johnny regarding a United Ireland. It's as simple as why not? Canada has similar problems with separatists but the majority remain firm. I know a little about the Ireland contention and hope this site may enlighten me further. I hope. What can anyone tell me about the Sho Shannon Butchers? Were they ever revealed or proscecuted? Can anyone tell me about Castleraigh? I apologize if I mispelled it... Does it still exist? No one likes to bring up a past full of pain, and that's not my intent. It's important to learn the facts before making an intelligent decision. I look forward to reading your comments.

Mike66

Butchers


...

Prodestants that kidnapped and killed IRish Catholics and skinned them alive for amusement during their drink & drug gatherings..



....
..


Is that what you refer to?

IndiaSkye

Hi Mike66,
That's exactly what I was talking about. But I have since heard the term Shankhill Butchers. I must have forgotten that I changed the name for my book. I read about this information some time ago on another site by Jane [?] and decided the information would be valuable for the book but my information is scant. Few people like to disccuss such atrocities. Althought the media doesn't mind discussing third world countries and their tragic lives.
The book is fiction and I could just make it up as I go along, but I prefer to add real material for people to chew on. If you could be at all helpfull with anything pertaining to that strain of contention I would be appreciative.

Sand

There was a movie called Ressurection Man about the Shankill Butchers (rather more of a dramatisation (with creativity included) than a documentary) from the very late 90s. Cant tell you much more about it beyond the fact the ending was rather good if only for the look on the guys face. Think there was another movie, but it seemed a lot more made for TV so i dunno - cant even remeber the name at this stage.

If youre looking for (factual) info on the troubles could always try the cain website. Has plenty of stuff there on a variety of stuff - the shankill butchers are there as well probably.

Macker

Here's my 0.02c for what it's worth

Sorry I can't be as eloquent as went before me...but here goes

Am I in favor of a UI ..yes
Do I think Siné Fein has left terrorism behind...yes
Do I think David Trimble is a spineless bástard who wouldn't stand up to the "nay" sayers...yes


Johnny 5
You need to lighted up...for a start get the name of the National anthem right ...you lost me when you called it the "Soldiers song".....your spouting nationalism but don't seem to practice it.

You're right when you say David Trimble doesn't condemn loyalist attacks....for years we heard Gerry adams say he wasn't into comdination....especally when he carried the coffins of murdering IRA bombers

Shinji:

"My Opinion about Johnny 5
So, in simple terms, this is a lengthy, badly formatted and un-punctuated rant "

When you criticize punctuation you've lost the argument,
"punctuation" is for sissys....kiss...kiss

Boston
"when they come along, then a doll queue or boat to England"

....was this at Christmas time..

sorry couldn't resist

Well that's all for now...sure I'll be back with more pointless drivel

Macker

IndiaSkye

Hi Sand, thank you for replying. I've never heard of the movie Resurrection Man. Has it been distributed world wide? I'm in Canada, nevertheless I'll look for it. I'd rather have a personally reported experience rather than a hyped up movie version. If you happen to know someone who's had the misfortune of losing a loved one to the Shankill Butchers have them add to this thread. I'm a writer not an investigator. I hate what is or rather has been going on in Ireland for hundreds of years.

North, South, East and West, Protestant or Catholic, Israeli or Muslim, I don't care where or who, the fighting is all pointless. The only people benefitting from these wars are the politicians and munitions suppliers. My position is that I don't believe anyone should have a degrading power over anyone. I know it's living in fantasy land, but it's my opinion. It's the children who suffer in the end. They loose their moms and daddys, brothers and sisters, their homes. And grow up to be human bombs or used for target practice. For what, nothing!:( Save that crowbar for a flat tire. Could you send me the article from the Gopher re:2004 summit. I would appreciate it.

sceptre

Originally posted by IndiaSkye
I've never heard of the movie Resurrection Man. Has it been distributed world wide?

http://us.imdb.com/Title?0140508

IndiaSkye

So Macker,
can I suppose that you oppose the IRA and their fight for freedom - period. From your words I really can't tell what you support other than a United Ireland. Being from Dublin doesn't paint you on one side or the other. I refuse to call it a Protestant and Catholic contest because it's gone beyond that. Does anyone know what they are fighting for any more? As I've said to Sand I believe the politicians are causing the war to linger. Which one has their hands in the pockets of corporate manufacturers of guns and amunition.
Why don't you tell me what you know about the Shankill Butchers and the tortures of Catholic prisoners, I'd surely be interested in your point of view.

IndiaSkye

sceptre, does this mean I can rent it at my local Blockbuster Video store?
What do you know about this personally? Anything real that hasn't been falsely publicized or media hyped? I'd like to hear your story.

Sand

If you happen to know someone who's had the misfortune of losing a loved one to the Shankill Butchers have them add to this thread.

Im afraid (or should i say Im glad) I dont know of anyone who had the misfortune.

Save that crowbar for a flat tire. Could you send me the article from the Gopher re:2004 summit. I would appreciate it.

The Gopher is a forum member and thats one of his quotes that had me laughing for ages - its regarding the Reclaim The Streets crowd, basically dozy students. the Gophers great because he makes me look positvely left wing:D

can I suppose that you oppose the IRA and their fight for freedom

The fight for freedom part is going to get you into a lot of trouble there - quite simply the IRA are terrorist scum, staffed by complete psychos with a dollop of misty eyed romatic heroism thrown in to justify the bombings of civillians - oh and the stomach churning moral sermons delivered by Sinn Fein, their political mouth piece. Most right thinking people, even those who seek a united Ireland oppose them. I dont know if you literally meant fight for freedom but if you did it would simply be an indication of what a good propaganda job the republicans have done abroad ( espcially in North America) to disguise the truth - which includes the fact that the IRA have killed more Catholics than the British Army in Northern Ireland - some defenders of their community.

As I've said to Sand I believe the politicians are causing the war to linger. Which one has their hands in the pockets of corporate manufacturers of guns and amunition.

Perhaps not on the scale you might imagine- The British would love to wash their hands of the whole mess, a fairly large proportion of the Republic dont want anything to do with the conflict up there - misty eyed romaticism be damned. However the local politicians who are fairly powerless in the greater scheme of things can make political capital out of tensions as many do - the beloved Ian Paisley ( Theyve got a second model in production as well, god help us ) for one. The terroritst tend to get their guns from second hand conflicts - such as Gaddafi and Libya in the 80s, the balkans in the 90s and so on, rather than from Heckler and Koch.

Shazbat

Originally posted by IndiaSkye
If you happen to know someone who's had the misfortune of losing a loved one to the Shankill Butchers have them add to this thread.

Are you for real?

What could you possibly want them to add? And what makes you think that somebody would want to discuss the brutal murder of one of their 'loved ones' on this website. You're one sick puppy.

Samba

opinions are like assholes, the only difference is how big they are

bonkey

Keep it civil.

Both sides.

jc

IndiaSkye

:mad: I guess this reply is for the smerf,
Are you talkin' to me? What kind of moron are you to think I want a family to discuss in detail the death of a loved one. Use the brain you were born with. What I'm looking for is someone to discuss this matter from a personal point of view. Not the opinion of a loyalist who would rather sweep in under the carpet. I would like to know if this has continued and if anyone has been charged with the atrocities. I'm not looking for an arguement, I'm asking for an intelligent dialogue with someone who really knows what's going on. Not form someone who has only heard the rumours.
If that's not you then mind your own business.

bonkey

Apparently IndiaSkye cannot understand simple requests like "keep it civil".

Thread locked.

jc