Petition to eMinister, Communications Minister and ODTR launched

dahamsta

It was automatically sent if you signed the petition on eircomtribunal.com yellum. I got it too.

adam

LoBo

I got same, word for word. Doesn't say much of note, does it?

Dustaz

Originally posted by Yoda
The FAQ should be looked at with regard to the currency issue.

The Ireland Offline FAQ?
I dont think so.

DeVore

Dear Tom,

I refer to your email regarding the pricing of internet access.

I share your interest in having low-cost internet access in Ireland, both
on the basis of dial-up access and through technologies such as DSL.

The Government have put in place substantial funding under the National
Development Plan to facilitate the rollout of broadband networks, including
DSL, and substantial progress is being made as a result. In addition the
Office of the Director of Telecommunications Regulation has played an
important role in relation to the unbundling of local loop facilities to
enable the development of DSL on a competitive basis. Competition among
operators will help to bring prices down and improve quality of service..

As regards dial-up access on a flat-rate basis, I am pleased to see
interest among operators now in making available such a service. I
understand that the Office of the Director of Telecommunications Regulation
is closely involved in the negotiations between Eircom and the other
operators and the Director's powers under the Interconnection Regulations
are available to her if needed. I look forward to a successful conclusion
to these negotiations.

As regards your proposals that I set prices for FRIACO and DSL and prevent
Eircom from offering retail services for a period, I do not have to power
to take such steps. It is important to allow commercial negotiations among
the operators to proceed to conclusion, facilitated as appropriate by the
ODTR. The regulatory framework includes provisions aimed at preventing
anti-competitive behaviour and the ODTR is in a position to apply the
framework as it considers necessary in the interests of promoting
competition and consumer benefit.

Your sincerely,
Mary Hanafin T.D.
Government Chief Whip
Minister of State with reponsibility for the Information Society

There I was thinking I was special

DeV.

dahamsta

There I was thinking I was special

Oh, you are.

adam

mike65

I got the same e-mail a moment ago, and I thought I
was special!

Mike.

Ivan

Absolutely brilliant site, I went through some of the articles in hysterics. It then dawned on me that I was laughing about stuff that I should be pretty mad about, such as the ODTR misrepresentating, and Bertie's laughable eGovernment.

That said excellent job, I shall spread the word as much as I possibly can.

Ivan

Toast

I had this petition sent to me from a friend with the line "sign now for better internet access". I knew it would have originated or shown up here quickly enough and found this thread. I post here to say I refuse to fill this out on the grounds that I believe e-mail petitions do more harm than good.

There is a great explanation at http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/petition/internet.htm which covers a lot of different types of online petitions and points out the problems with them (alot of which dont relate to this petition). However a very significant point is the slacktivism element.

From the above URL:
"Real letters (the kind that are written in a person's own words and are sent through the regular mail) are accorded far more respect than form letters (let alone petitions), and that should be kept in mind by those intent upon being heard. Yes, the effort it takes is far larger. But so is the potential for making an actual difference. "

The automated responses to the mails that have already been recieved seem to suggested that the most likely thing that will happen is the petition will become an annoyance replied to and deleted by a filter. Suggestions of randomising the topic to prevent this would put this mail in a category I and many others would call spam. Most good email filters could do a filter by any field anyway (originating ip for example). But If 10k ppl sign this and a random field for filter subverting is added how long before it is considered a mailbomb? What would stop some well meaning but naive teen writing a script to increase the submissions tenfold with random names and email addresses effectively creating a DoS?

To get back to earth, In the most likely scenario of this doing the email rounds and each person recieving it and signing it and passing on the URL we have an automated response and a person will sit back in the warm rosy belief they have done their bit when in fact it has done nothing.

Im sure people will argue with this point of view but remember it is simply that... a point of view. If you feel its wrong by all means sign the petition (rather than waste time trying to change my mind here which you wont) but I do want that people consider what I have said on this and consider, if they really want to make a difference, a snail mail in their own words instead of the easy way out.

Tellox

From :
Minister.Hanafin@Taoiseach.Gov.IE
Subject :
Re: Petition
Date : Mon, 23 Sep 2002 11:52:46 +0100
Dear Eoghan
I refer to your email regarding the pricing of internet access.
I share your interest in having low-cost internet access in Ireland, both on the basis of dial-up access and through technologies such as DSL.

The Government have put in place substantial funding under the National Development Plan to facilitate the rollout of broadband networks, including DSL, and substantial progress is being made as a result. In addition the Office of the Director of Telecommunications Regulation has played an important role in relation to the unbundling of local loop facilities to
enable the development of DSL on a competitive basis. Competition among operators will help to bring prices down and improve quality of service..

As regards dial-up access on a flat-rate basis, I am pleased to see
interest among operators now in making available such a service. I understand that the Office of the Director of Telecommunications Regulation is closely involved in the negotiations between Eircom and the other operators and the Director's powers under the Interconnection Regulations are available to her if needed. I look forward to a successful conclusion to these negotiations.

As regards your proposals that I set prices for FRIACO and DSL and prevent Eircom from offering retail services for a period, I do not have to power to take such steps. It is important to allow commercial negotiations among the operators to proceed to conclusion, facilitated as appropriate by the ODTR. The regulatory framework includes provisions aimed at preventing anti-competitive behaviour and the ODTR is in a position to apply the
framework as it considers necessary in the interests of promoting
competition and consumer benefit.

Your sincerely,
Mary Hanafin T.D.
Government Chief Whip
Minister of State with reponsibility for the Information Society

Stonemason

I got one of those today hell youd think that she had something to do with it the way she is going on.Typical TD wait till someone like UTV comes along and actualy does something then try to steal the credit.


PS BTW my UTV account was also activated today but i go to the site to sign up put in the code they sent and it wont confirm, any ideas ?

DonegalMan

Originally posted by Toast
I had this petition sent to me from a friend with the line ... refuse to fill this out on the grounds that I believe e-mail petitions do more harm than good.

Would normally agree with what you are saying but I think this situation is a bit different due to the profile that IOFFL and the whole Internet access issue have gained recently.

The fact that someone in the Minister's office took the time to reply to these emails individually (or at least took the time to set up a personalised automated response) shows that they are wary of ignoring this subject, another indication of the stature that IOFFL and associated operations like EircomTribunal have achieved

Martin Harran

P.S. i got one too

SkepticOne

One of the things I found mildly encouraging was that the response was at least accurate. In the past there have been many replies from Government departments about subsidies for national fibre networks and the like which have very little to do with flat-rate 56k and consumer broadband. This basic lack of understanding is very depressing and I hope it is changing.

I agree with Toast that individually worded letters demanding an individual reply are likely to have a far greater impact. It would be interesting to reply to this automated response with some detailed questions.

sceptre

Originally posted by SkepticOne
I agree with Toast that individually worded letters demanding an individual reply are likely to have a far greater impact. It would be interesting to reply to this automated response with some detailed questions.

Very fair point from Toast.

Just finished typing up my personal response to the response. I'll try to remember to post it up tomorrow evening (given that I'd like to actually receive a personal response to share (which may take a few days if ever) I'll wait until it gets there). It's reasonably short (1458 words) and may not be 100% accurate despite my best efforts but I suppose it's honest and all that:)

sceptre

I've a feeling I'll never get a response from Mary Hanafin's minions, so here's the response I sent her after my receiving the same form mail posted by Tizlox and deVore:

Ms Hanafin

Firstly thank you for your response. It may surprise you to learn that this is the first response I have received from a Fianna Fail TD on this matter, despite my having contacted every TD by email prior to the report stage of the Communications (Regulations) Act 2002 and my local TDs on a number of occasions. Local opposition TDs have been a little more forthcoming, all having sent me a personal response to each communication (some handwritten, some with sincere requests for more information)

Before making a detailed response to your very welcome communication I would like to request a response to the following points (based on the points raised in your mail to me):

1.

The National Development Plan has indeed achieved a number of targets, notably in the west and north-west of the country, in building an infrastructure of fibre capable of providing increased traffic. However, almost all of this fibre has remained unlit over the past two years. It is analagous to building a network of roads, not allowing traffic on it and deeming the project a huge success. It would, by the way, be a mistake to respond to this point with a statement that this project is progressing well and will be finished soon. It's finished and has been for the past two years. Does the government plan on taking steps to ensure that the project it funded is used? If so, what and when?

2.

With regard to local loop unbundling, it is true that the regulations are in place. However, if I were Minister of State with reponsibility for the Information Society, I would check to see how many lines (or even exchanges relative to the total) had been unbundled before listing the implementation of the regulations as a success. Additionally, LLU, though a worthy and necessary endeavour, has little to do directly with the rollout of any brand of xDSL. While it will facilitate some telecoms companies in rolling out their own self-administered branded DSL products it is not a necessary ingredient and hence not a factor. For example, broadband rollout in the UK began before a single local loop was unbundled; it has continued to (dramatically) outpace LLU since its introduction and will continue to do so. Let me stress the point: there is no necessary direct relationship or correlation between local loop unbundling and broadband rollout, except perhaps on a political level. The UK market is obviously different to the Irish market; however the technology is the same. Does the government realise the lack of a necessary connection between LLU and DSL rollout? If so, why is the connection implied?

3.

The recent introduction of a number of state-wide flat-rate related Internet products from two companies in the Irish market is obviously a welcome development for Irish businesses. However, as you are no doubt aware, these products are not full flat-rate products and additionally are only available off-peak. The obvious solution is FRIACO. The favoured evaluation of Irish Internet access (see ODTR document 2/50) - "internet penetration rate" - fails to address the greater issues of active internet users and average online minutes per month. The ODTR's own report has a damning indictment of what it styles the "active Internet Universe in Ireland". What steps will the government (not just the ODTR)take to help or ensure the introduction of an affordable flatrate product (implied by the Communications (Regulation) Act 2002)?

4.

With regard to the negotions between Eircom and the OLOs (Other Licensed Operators) negotiations have been stalling for two years. I use the term "stalling" as the then CEO of Esat Fusion, Derek Kickham mentioned on August 29 of last year that Eircom were taking over two months to respond to basic queries concerning LLU and a possible FRIACO-style offering from Esat. I grant that communications may have improved since then - given that it is not likely to be within your sphere of knowledge, I am not asking you for news of progress on this matter. In any event I fully appreciate that as a government/regulatory body matter you might not wish to inform me, though I will be checking to see if the existence (not contents) of such communications fall under the FOI Act. The current Director of the ODTR is fully aware of the slow communications; in any event, on my asking Etain Doyle (in person on August 29 of last year) the question of whether such a communications delay would be considered a "breakdown in communications" (as covered by her remit and discretionary powers), I failed to elicit a response, except to say that it was up to the negotiators to make a declaration that the negotiations had broken down. This is of course not the case - the discretionary powers are clear. Does the government have a view on exactly when negotiations between two parties necessary to preserve and expand the telecomunications industry have broken down? If so what is it and what steps is it willing to help the process progress?

5.

Therefore I would submit that the Director's powers under the Interconnection Regulations are indeed needed - they are just not being used. I understand, as implied from your reply, that you neither have the power to enforce them, nor to insist that they be enforced: I am merely informing you that, in my opinion (and doubtless the opinion of other replies that you may receive over the lifetime of this government), they need to be enforced by someone, whether that enforcer is the current ODTR, the forthcoming CCR or a government Minister. Will the government ensure that steps are taken to ensure the well-being and progress towards well-being of the telecommunications industry (and hence Irish businesses not involved in telecoms)? Rather than simply throwing money at the problem, will there be a commitment to ensure that projects that are begun are also finished (see first point above)?

6.

On 1 May 2002 Minister O'Rourke announced the following: "Ireland will be the first country in the EU to have a minimum standard of 5 Mbits for home users and substantially higher for business. Within 5 years we will have wired the island." On the same date a press release (available at http://www.fiannafail.ie/breaking_news.php4?id=582) stated "Within 3 years Fianna Fáil will provide cheap, open-access, “always-on” broadband infrastructure throughout the state, placing Ireland within the top 10% of OECD countries for broadband connectivity". This ties in neatly with Minister O'Rourkes statement from 29 September 1998 (available from http://www.irlgov.ie/tec/press97-00/press98/sept29th98.htm): "I hope Telecom Éireann will now turn their attention to address the issue of introducing a flat rate Internet charge. Such a move would be a major boost to the promotion of Ireland as a centre for E Commerce". Obviously only the first two statements are effectively promises, the third is merely an aspiration made available by the Minister from a government office. However, recognising the old adage of never making a promise outside election time that can't be kept, has the government abandoned this four-year old aspiration? If it has not, what steps is it itself prepared to take to ensure the progression towards affording Irish citizens the same facilities available in almost all other developed countries (and a surprising amount of undeveloped ones - list available on request)?



I am, however, interested in whether you would personally consider such slow communications mentioned above as tantamount to a "breakdown in communications". I fully understand that you may consider it a regulatory matter, outside your remit to respond but would appreciate your knowing that at least one person is fully aware of the sham of a situation in which the negotiations are. "Competition" is a word bandied about by all, from Mario Monti down to local hackney drivers. Competition without effective regulation is a philosophy that has been abandoned even by Milton Friedman. The key word is "effective". Anything else is simply window dressing.

I fully recognise and appreciate the hours you put in in your Ministerial position. I for one was greatly pleased, based on your outstanding work in your previous ministry, when you were given the appointment. This is certainly not a compliment I pay very often. As a member of no political party, I base my evaluation of the performance of a Minister on that actual performance and not based on the views of a TD's grandfather on who owns Antrim. These are steps that need to be taken now. These are the issues on which your reputation as effectively Ireland's eMinister will depend.

This is obviously just a brief mail with a few points. I would appreciate as full a response on the above as you are prepared to give at your earliest convenience.


Genuine Regards

Seamus Ryan

As I've mentioned a few times here, I don't know a staggering amount about telecoms so I'm well capable of being blinded by someone with a few catchy phrases in an argument on telecoms. However, I still reckon I'll never see a response to the above. At least not until I start sending it daily.

Dangger

Excellent sceptre! It would certainly be beneficial if everyone who recieved an automated response took the time to respond in their own words and with their own views to the Minister's original email.

Thanks also to eircomtribunal for getting this particular ball rolling!

dahamsta

At least not until I start sending it daily.

Well, we all have printers...

Great letter Seamus, nice job.

adam

ednwireland

nice one sceptre i too email my td's regularly and have never had a reply (i even faxed the ioffl leaflet to all candidates with no replies )
i have met one on several occasions and she doesn't even say anything if you bump into her on the street, mind you now she's in a ministers merc no chance of that happening anyway.
how do these people get votes ?
Nice to know i'm not the only one being ignored

LoBo

great letter sceptre - hopefully you'll get a reply

seamus

Yes, great letter sceptre. When Ms. Hanafin sent out all those emails (if she even played a part in it, that is), I bet she didn't expect to hear back from people so well armed with facts and links. Those three links - back to 1998! - are a great touch.

yellum

Nice one Sceptre, really really good reply.