Beggars on our streets

MDR

Peeps,

I am seeking consensus on this issue, this is an issue not many of us will talk about. Our city is becoming awash with beggars.
In the course of this post I am going to talk about some of the minority groups who are resident in our city, this is not meant as a commentary on the habits of these groups as a whole, but rather on a subsection of those groups.

The situation has become very bad over the last few weeks. I have noticed a change, I watch the city closely, I watch the street, its a habit I picked up from working as a night security guard.

Initally before the 'celtic tiger' boom (I use the term loosely), the beggars on our streets where mostily members of the travelling community, women and children from that community. This has been a long held tradition of the this community.

Then around 1998 the travellers disappeared (I amn't sure why) and Romanian Gypies appeared to take there place. Romanian Gypies they had been travelling gradually west after the fall over communism, I encountered them for the first time in Paris in 1995. It is also the long held tradition of this community to beg, by the time I lived in Paris for an extended period in 1997/1998, they numbers had swelled considerably and it had become difficult to go anywhere in the city without encountering them. It is also the tradition in this community for the women and children to beg, however the men will also play the accordion (at which they are quite talented).

Around mid 2001, the number of Romanian gypies seemed to decline and in its place the number of young male beggars seemed to grow. They are present all week but mainly appear during friday and saturday in greater numbers. I don't really know why alot of them are there, a small proporation for drug money, some are homeless, some are quite well dressed.

Now around in mid 2002, the travelling community have returned to our streets, the romanian gypies have remained, as have the young male beggars. Every pitch in the city is now manned, it is frankily the worst I have ever seen it.

When I worked in security in the center of the city, I used to watch beggars from the travelling community being dropped in a van in the morning, and later being dropped off their lunch at around 12:30. I also have seen beggars (who I recognise) from the romanian community wiring money home (their are one or two place in the center of the city they perfer to do this). And as for the young male beggars, I have seen a few of them (the well dressed ones) agressively beg for a hour or two, and then go for a pint.

So my question is, how do you percieve these groups ? and if you had the power what would you do ? Should they be helped, be moved on or left alone ?

thedrowner

i try to ignore people when they come up to me, if they seem genuine i'll give them money, but i usually get upset thinking about it, there's one guy in particular who has brought a tear to my eye on occasion, he stands at the bottom of westmoreland street and plays the tin whistle, but he just alternates between 2 notes coz i dont think he can properly play it.

im gettting annoyed at all the concern people and the likes who come up to me. I know theyve got a job to do, but they now position themselves so that if u cross the street to get away form them, theres someone lying in wait on th other side of the road. They make really offensive comments sometimes too and if youre in a rush to go somewhere they still ownt leave you alone. I'd [refer to give money to charities in my own time, and research it a bit first before i make that commitment. sorry...getting a bit sidetracked.

Winters

I have to agree...i have noticed a lot more beggers on the streets and most i have to say would be of a foreign background.

I have already had the following on trips to the city center:
Indian Woman singing on the dart then going around to everyone looking for money (/me thanks MD walkman )
Foreign begger following me for a few meters looking for money
Foreign begger walking up to my and my friends during a conversation and "tormenting" us for money.

If I have caused any offence on the above post I apoligize .. didnt mean to


I am now finding it annoying the amount of begging going on. It has not really got to the point that it is a hassle to get into dublin every week day and back home again. I think the garda should really do something to stop it. It was grand when they sat on the side of the streats .. i would give them some change there but when they come up to you and follow you .. nearly "demanging" money it becomes VERY annoying.

MDR

I think the garda should really do something to stop it.

I would argue in defense of the Garda, I know from what I read i the papers that the Garda have almost given up with regard to this problem. I was cited a case by an Sergeant I know of a Romanian Women who would beg at an interchange of the M50, moving between the cars waiting for lights to change.

She was arrested 16 times, the judge in question saw her so often, he knew her by her first name, no penalty was imposed upon her.

Indian Woman singing on the dart then going around to everyone looking for money

This used to happen to me alot on the metro in Paris, Romanian guys playing the accordian and then demanding money. /me is not impressed peeps are doing something similar on the dart.

but when they come up to you and follow you .. nearly "demanging" money it becomes VERY annoying.

I think because people have a little less money now, and they are also more educated about the background of the beggars, they are less inclined to give them money. Therefore the beggars have become more agreesive to turn the same coin.

Gaz

When i finish work i walk form leeson street to stephens green , not a very long distance and i pass 4 -6 beggars every time .... And i hate it to be honest, call me whatever but i really cant stand it ...... I usually just walk past them but lately you have to walk around them as they are so in your face demanding money.

The worst incident would be when i was walking to the bus stop a romanian beggar held her baby up to my face and said "feeds my baby ...my baby needs to eat"

I lost it to be honest and screamed a few obsenities at her ...

Its getting worse in my opinion

MDR

I read of incidents on Italian Buses with Romanian Gypies, were a woman would throw her child at a person who was facing them (pretending to trip), that person would catch the child and return it to its romanian mother. The romanian mother would simle and thank the good samaritan. However while all this was happening another Romanian women standing behind the good samaritian would pick the samaritian's pocket.

The Corinthian

First of all, it would be unfair to attribute all gypsies as Romanian. As an ethnic group, gypsies are not tied to any one country and will be found to originate from much of Eastern Europe and the Balklands. Indeed, Romanians would be offended with the inference that gypsies are from their country. The general consensus (by both gypsies and non-gipsies) is that they are not of any particular country, nether do they have any allegiance to any particular country.

Gypsies have been is Western Europe for a long time, long before the Berlin Wall came down. I remember them as a child in Rome well over twenty years ago. I would not be exaggerating if I were to say that pretty close to every Italian living in a city with a large gypsy (or zingari in Italian) community, has had a bad experience with them, first hand.

In Italy they are well known for their begging and pick pocketing (tried on me on one occasion), but also for their trade in children, that they kidnap when left unattended by their parents. For years, I heard Irish people complain about the Travellers and would just smile - and lo and behold, one day in the late nineties, I was walking down the road when I heard that all too familiar begging moan – only this time with a few token English words, rather than the pigeon Italian I’d heard a hundred times before.

As for the other homegrown beggars, they’re simply following the old “the World owes me a living” philosophy that is one of the traditional origins of begrudgery in Ireland. There are a few who are truly in need and who appear to have fallen through the social net, but they are a tiny percentage.

The only reason for the level of begging on the streets is because people (women, I find) give them money. Dublin is still growing up and most of its population would not be classified a ‘big city dwellers’ from a European perspective, where dog eats dog and as such are more gullible to such scams.

As we become more cynical, we’ll stop and the beggars will disappear.

Then the bad sh1t will begin.

jd

Originally posted by The Corinthian

Then the bad sh1t will begin.

what bad sh1t do you have in mind..

The Corinthian

Originally posted by jd
what bad sh1t do you have in mind..

When the money from begging dries up, do you think that the beggars, especially the gypsies, are all just going to go off and get office jobs?

lordsippa

What REALLY gets me is how they start pulling at me. I'm becoming VERY mean to the ones that really pester...

But yeah... they've stopped in the middle of traffic mesees...

Nih... that guy with the card is also really annoying have given him money but you tend not to give too often to the same person and now he's ALWAYS pestering me... and he must get a disabilities welfare thing...

GRR!

Makaveli

For some of them, the foreign ones more so, it's like a business.
I see them when I'm on the bus.
A group of women, each with child. They will talk and then head off to their respective postions and then I'm sure they meet up again when they have worked their shift.
TBH, I don't give them any money.
I will give money to some of the Irish people though. There was a man that used to beg near Grafton St. I often gave him some change, I dunno if he is still around.
But the majority of the time I will ignore them.
But what really really really pisses me off is when they come knocking door to door.
Most of the time I wont answer but when I do it's the same old story. They have a little sob story learned off in English and they regurgitate it at every door. Funny how they all have the exact same harrowing story.
I've noticed it isnt Irish travellers that go door to door so much at all now, the majority is foreigners.
Don't come knocking at my door, because I wont give you any money.

This all may seem awfully harsh, but I've had enough problems in my life with gypsies so excuse me if you find this offencive.
It's all imo.

Mystic Fibrosis

What REALLY gets me is how they start pulling at me.

Yeah, I've had a few experiences where beggars physically hang on to me...apart from being rude, it's kinda terrifying, 'cause I'm pretty paranoid.

magner

When i won the Lotto last year,my wife said to me that we should keep it private, but i said no,
But she said what about all the begging letters??
So i said to her to keep sending them,,,,,,,,,,,,,

MDR

First of all, it would be unfair to attribute all gypsies as Romanian

Fair point, I was attempting to use the term Romanian Gypsy to distinguish that ethnic group from Romanian People (who are a hard working, likeable lot, who make fairly decent red wine). I should have been clearer.

The question is what should we do about this problem. I amn't sure this problem is related to Dublin 'growing up', I can't see Dublin's personality changing so much that people's generous nature would change, and so this problem would persist. I would tackle it through the courts, by making judges hand out harsher sentences, encourage garda to attempt to tackle the problem again and exile all the lawyers to the Aran Isles . Also, if your asylum application is being processed, and you have more than one (everyone deserves a second chance) conviction for begging (public order act ?) it would be automatically be found to be 'Manifestily Unfounded'.

Meh

Originally posted by MDR
Also, if your asylum application is being processed, and you have more than one (everyone deserves a second chance) conviction for begging (public order act ?) it would be automatically be found to be 'Manifestily Unfounded'.

I can't understand why this isn't being done already. I have no sympathy for bogus asylum-seekers who break the law like this. They're abusing the UN Convention on Refugees, and they're giving the genuine asylum-seekers a bad name.

MDR

I can't understand why this isn't being done already.

I have a feeling it is being done already, but I amn't sure ... :eek:

Turnip

Shoot the filth. And all buskers too.

meglome

I've been to Romania and you see Romany gypsies begging all over. The Romanians themselves (in general) would gladly line them up against a wall and shoot them (like really). I thought we had a problem with the travellers but it seems we are not a patch on how the average Romanian feels about the gypsies.

I really do hate their aggressive begging tactics, I’ve had gypsies grab me and hold on demanding money, which I wasn't too happy about. Fair enough I told them to **** off but it's not something I should have to do.

The reality is that the vast majority of beggars in Ireland are Irish. And especially in Dublin, the vast majority of them are drug addicts and/or alcoholics. I work and live in Dublin city and at the beginning I felt sorry for them and helped when I could. But after years of crap and lies from junkies I feel very little sympathy for them. In the centre of Dublin if you put something down for more than twenty seconds someone will probably try and steal it. From experience I would say that 80% of that is drug related.

I think it should be illegal for anyone seeking asylum to beg, which will stop people coming here just to bum off us. I'm all for people working whether they be asylum seekers or not. I have also seen the traveller children being dropped off by their parents in the van and then collected in the evening, nice little business.

Might be nice if some politician had the balls to do something about the drug problem while they're at it.

pork99

however the men will also play the accordion (at which they are quite talented).

theres one who plays at Stillorgan shopping centre who is hopeless - I might give him money otherwise.

However I think its better to make a contribution to http://www.focusireland.ie/ (you can donate online) or a similiar charity than to give directly to beggars.

But its our own fault; if you work here for say 3 years with getting into trouble with the cops you should automatically get citizenship and entitlement to social welfare etc. Otherwise if you come here, dont work, beg and steal you should be deported so fast you wake up in, for example, Bucharest or Lagos* before you know what is happening.

I have heard that Ireland has come to be considered a "soft touch" with refugees. If you are expelled from any other EU country you just come here no worries. I believe we have a duty to take our share of asylum seekers, we have literally taken the EU dollar, but if its not on a "level playing field" with other EU states we risk giving encouragement to some very unpleasant political elements.

* just examples - not picking on Romanians or Nigerians

Wook

what i don't understand is the beggars in dublin that just sit there and do nothing. i can sometimes give money to somebody who tries to sell or does something, like playing music or whatever.
If i look around in dublin i see a lot of young people begging, i wonder why that is..can they not get a job anywhere?
Doesn't matter what you do , it beats sitting on the street and hoping for the best. am i being naive , if so ..why do they not work , explain to me please ...

MDR

i wonder why that is..can they not get a job anywhere?

Alot of them are homeless, or addicts, or alcholics, or lazy, meaning holding down a job isn't really something they would consider. They usually make about €80 - €120 a day begging, Irish are generous in nature, its a natural thing to do, it worries me what these peeps would be doing if the Irish weren't a generous people ...

eth0_

And a great deal of them...the kids really, aren't homeless at all, they're sent out there by there parents to beg.

I was in Toronto recently and the 'beggars' there were hilarious, they were middle class kids in tommy hilfiger gear, homeless me arse! I think they were doing it because they were bored.

LizardKing

IMHO a lot of the beggin I've seen has been from junkies.. :mad: especially around Tara Street Station. Some other types I've encountered which was a little bit sad was a young foreign girl (I won't say Romanian cos ' I did not ask ) knocked to our door with a card beggin for food money. It was a little heart breaking but its like feedin stray cats , if you give in they'll mark your address and pester you regularly. In this case I tried to close the door and say sorry no, but she put her foot in the door and dropped the card into my hallway. I dont know if this was a ploy or accident however I just picked up the card and asked her to move her foot , which she eventually did and then left. The worrying thing is some older people might not be able to deal with this and could seem forced into paying the beggar.

My solutions

- Hard line - Start some sort of campaign , to ask people to not give money to these people i.e stop the source of money, if there is no reason to beg maybe they'll stop... (or get worse)
- Garda crack down , more money pumped into drug programs , re-housing homeless people etc.
- Jail repeat offenders and deport illegal non-nationals who continue to offend.

I do not think there is a soft solution to this . I also think that some of the people talked about , playing music might not have been beggars but buskers. My brother busks on Grafton Street with friends , they do it for pocket money and cos' they love playin music.

LFCFan

A lot of them don't work because they are homeless. Sad thing is, most of them would probably jump at the chance to work just to have enough money to survive. Because they're homeless though they have no chance of getting a job. It's these 'beggers' that I feel sorry for. They are getting a bad name now because of all the chancers. I will give some change to the ones that I feel are genuinely down on their luck. The other ones can go a take a running jump(preferably into the Liffey) before I'll give them a cent, especially the Gypsies with their Babies who are already claiming benefits from the Government.

MDR

Trouble is sometimes its quite diffcult to tell them apart ...

pork99

Trouble is sometimes its quite diffcult to tell them apart ...

Then donate to http://www.focusireland.ie/

I'm sure they will not pass on your donation to scam artists

nim psychotic

And why oh why do they sit beside the cashpoints? I mean, you're hardly gonna give them a tenner are you? I'm not going to feel guilty withdrawing my money after a hard week's work thank you very much. I do give spare change if I think someone is REALLY genuine but the whole cashpoint thing just annoys me.

MDR

I know what you mean ... drives me nuts too.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by nim psychotic
And why oh why do they sit beside the cashpoints?

Because it's a good way of intimidating ppl into feeling guilty about all the money they have while someone 'homeless' is beside them.

Never give. Ever.

Makaveli

Originally posted by pork99
theres one who plays at Stillorgan shopping centre who is hopeless - I might give him money otherwise.

Yeah, but he's dedicated to it. And he brings his dog along too now. This tiny little puppy that just sleeps between his legs.
Actually, he's not bad, because he's not pushy he just sits there and plays. The drunks though are really annoying. There are 3 or 4 of them, and they live in the church grounds generally. But a lot of the time one of them sits beside the AIB banklink beside the cinema.
That's really not on. I'm sure a lot of people are quite intimidated by this. Especially older people. Really they should be moved on from there quite quickly. Obviously at night there is no security card in the bank, but the police drive by it all the time.

LFCFan

Originally posted by Makaveli
but the police drive by it all the time.

Yeah, and do you really expect the Gardai to do anything. Maybe if the drunk was in a pub drinking after hours they might do something.

eth0_

Originally posted by LFCFan
Yeah, and do you really expect the Gardai to do anything. Maybe if the drunk was in a pub drinking after hours they might do something.

That's a dumb thing to say. What has after-hours drinking got to do with anything?
I've seen the police move on beggars who sit at banklinks *plenty* of times, on Grafton st, Temple Bar Square etc.

LFCFan

Originally posted by eth0_
That's a dumb thing to say. What has after-hours drinking got to do with anything?
I've seen the police move on beggars who sit at banklinks *plenty* of times, on Grafton st, Temple Bar Square etc.

I said it because the Gardai seem more interested in raiding pubs serving drink after hours then they do dealing with issues that effect us all. There's not enough Gardai and the ones we do have are not utilised to great effect.

eth0_

Originally posted by LFCFan
I said it because the Gardai seem more interested in raiding pubs serving drink after hours then they do dealing with issues that effect us all.

REALLY? When was the last time you were in a pub after hours and it was raided? A law's a law, licencing laws are just as valid as begging laws.

Are you a publican by any chance?
:-D

LFCFan

Originally posted by eth0_
REALLY? When was the last time you were in a pub after hours and it was raided? A law's a law, licencing laws are just as valid as begging laws.
Are you a publican by any chance?
:-D

Ok, d'ya wanna know what has me miffed at the cops with after hours drinking etc. A friend of mine was mown down by a drunk drivers who was just after leaving a pub that was raided by cops for after hours drinking. They were more interested in the licensing laws then stopping some gob****e from drink driving. Another night the shop I worked in was broken into and the alarm was raised with the Gardai. They arrived 3 hours later and their excuse was that they were after being at a pub giving out tickets to people for having a drink an hour after they should be. In the meantime the thieves thrashed to shop and nicked anything that wasn't bolted to the floor. That's 2 incidents in my experience where the Gardai are more interested in the easy target then they are in tackling the issues that affect our lives. If someone is having a drink after hours it's no skin off anyones nose. They're outdated licensing laws anyway and no, I'm not a publican.

Gordon

If someone asks me for money for food I will try and go and buy them an apple or biscuits. I do it rarely though because once I did and the guy said "Oh, apples and bananas? Nah can't eat that matem got a stomach ulcer y'see".

I am considering taking a thermos flask and some paper cups around with me when I walk Dublin so that I really can give someone that "cup of tea" that they need money for.

I worked in a shop once where this beggar came in with rakes of coins and I changed them for notes about €50 worth. It was only mid-day and I asked if it was a good taking for the day and he told me that he was just getting started, that was nothing!! Couldn't believe it, he was making more than me man! And a friend of mine had a similar experience, he gave someone money and saw them just after walk up to a cashpoint and withdraw notes of money.

But in saying that I'm sure there are legitimate homeless people (I know there are kids that are out on the streets homeless and seemingly prostituting themselves). The only problem is the fact that it is difficult to believe if someone needs the money for charitable reasons.

Turnip

My friend and I are so sick of beggars, especially at cashpoints, we're going to start giving them some verbal intimidation back and see how they like it. If people stand up to these scum in some way, instead of trying to ignore them or encouraging them by giving them money, then they'll soon miraculously disappear.

tribble

what i don't understand is the beggars in dublin that just sit there and do nothing. i can sometimes give money to somebody who tries to sell or does something, like playing music or whatever.

Employers cannot employ sombody who has no fixed abode.


b

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Turnip
My friend and I are so sick of beggars, especially at cashpoints, we're going to start giving them some verbal intimidation back and see how they like it.

I wouldn’t advise it, unless you’re looking to get a knife or syringe stuck into you.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by tribble
Employers cannot employ sombody who has no fixed abode.

Yes they can, all they need an address, if if it's a church or hostel.

Anyhow what did that have to do with what you were quoting?

Turnip

Originally posted by The Corinthian
I wouldn’t advise it, unless you’re looking to get a knife or syringe stuck into you.

I'm well able to look after myself m8. If more people did even a couple of self defence classes they would not have anything to fear from street scum.

Unjaku

If people continue to give money, people will continue to keep begging.

Many of the people of non-irish origin begging on our streets are now naturalised, others are financially supported as they go through the asylum-seeking process. Few of them are homeless or desperate.

They are opportunists, and I don't particularly despise them for it:

There is an old joke that the irish provided all the rabble, beggars and scum the british empire ever wanted. We have a history of being down on our luck and existing on the poverty line, not terribly long ago.

Let's cut these people some slack, Roma or gypsy culture has a long tradition of aqquiring money by wits instead of work, and it is not seen as shameful. Panhandling is an art, after all.

The answer is not to be abusive or intimidating in return, but to adopt of a clinical approach. Ireland has a thriving migrant labour market, and they need to be gently funnelled into it. A lot of them are already part of it to some degree anyway, or familly members are.

What concerns me is young kids begging to supplement familly income when they should be in school.

The Corinthian

Originally posted by Turnip
I'm well able to look after myself m8.

You’re not. Trust me.

Originally posted by Unjaku
Let's cut these people some slack, Roma or gypsy culture has a long tradition of aqquiring money by wits instead of work, and it is not seen as shameful.

Let's cut some slack for grifters, fences and thieves. Let’s cut some slack for all those nice people who have earned an ethic right to live off our labour.

No. Let's not.

Unjaku

Originally posted by The Corinthian
Let's cut some slack for grifters, fences and thieves. Let’s cut some slack for all those nice people who have earned an ethic right to live off our labour.

No. Let's not.

When I say 'cut them some slack' I'm saying that demonising people who ask for money on the streets as 'scumbags' is not productive.

Begging and thieving are two different things, the crucial difference being that begging only continues with the tacit approval of the public- the people who hand over their money every day.

Meh

Originally posted by Unjaku
Let's cut these people some slack, Roma or gypsy culture has a long tradition of aqquiring money by wits instead of work, and it is not seen as shameful.

Well, Irish culture has a long tradition of viewing begging on the streets as being socially unacceptable behaviour (as well as being illegal). If we're supposed to respect gypsy culture (which we should), then shouldn't they respect our culture in return?

Red Devil

No employer will give you a job without a fixed abode in most Western countries.

In 1998 I lived in a youth hostel for my first six months of college due to the accomodation problems in Dublin. It was at the height of the Celtic Tiger and I had returned to college after working for two years in Europe and the States.

I had a good Leaving Cert and work experience but without a fixed abode I was turned down constantly for jobs I felt i was over qualified for. More often than not, no reason was given but at least some had the honesty to admit that when i had my accomodation sorted out they would be glad to talk to me.

Spent a year on Erasmus in Turin where there is virtually no student accomodation and very little accomodation for short term leasing. I once again lived in a youth hostel for about six months and experienced the exact same situation.

Without an address you cannot get a job. Without a job it is difficult to get some where to live and it is quite easy to slip through the net. The majority of people who are homeless in Ireland are young and are suffering from some form of mental illness. Some of them are trouble but some of their stories are terrifying. I worked at night throughout college and the level of teenage prostitution, particularly male, in Dublin is frightening.

It is complete rubbish to claim that we are being over run with Roma(not Romainian) beggars. In total there is at most 100 Roma gypsies begging on our streets.

To refer to a person who is begging as "scum" says more about the poster than about anything else. Maybe you and your friend could educate yourselves as opposed to dishing out verbal intimidation.

We are not over run with refuges. We have a problem accepting that people now want to come here for a better life. Some come to escape various forms of persucution, some come to earn money. And yes, some are chancers who have come to con and freeload of our social welfare system.

However, look at Irish life, from the Church clerical abuse coverup, to the Flood, Lindsay, Moriarty and Morris tribunals and the ripping off of consumers in this country. It is not as if we don't have our own fair share of chancers.

It is intimidating to have someone begging at an ATM but if they were not given money at ATMs they wouldn't beg there. Why not ask all your friends to politely refuse to give over money at an ATM.

Don't give money to Roma gypsies as they are fed and accomodated. If you feel sympathy for the kids buy some sweets or food and give it to them.

Never give kids money, end of. They have some chance if they get an education. The parents who send them out begging would soon give it up if they arrived home day after day with fruit, sandwiches and sweets.

Offer to pay for a hostel or buy the cup of tea. Every single one of them is human and has a story.

Unjaku

Originally posted by Red Devil
No employer will give you a job without a fixed abode in most Western countries.

While I agree with 99% of the rest of your post, I would disagree with this.

As in every other first world country, there is a thriving under-the-table labour market in Ireland. Many non-nationals find work as labourers and in other industries working illegally. They get what they want, to stay in Ireland after their asylum application has been rejected, or their visa expired, and employers get a cheap source of labour.

It is complete rubbish to claim that we are being over run with Roma(not Romainian) beggars. In total there is at most 100 Roma gypsies begging on our streets.

Agree. This reflects the fact that only roughly 1% of asylum proposals to the Irish government are accepted, in contrast to maybe 14% in the UK and greater numbers in other european countries. We take in a trickle, which is not surprising, considering the kind of psuedo-racists we elect to represent us in this country.

MDR

It is complete rubbish to claim that we are being over run with Roma(not Romainian) beggars. In total there is at most 100 Roma gypsies begging on our streets.

My dad is a gardener for a set of apartment blocks in North Dublin. Two of the apartments are let to dept of social welfare who houses Roma Gypies in them. From what he tells me it is used a focal point for Gypies to be picked up and ferried around the town with buckets to go begging. He reckons he sees about forty of them in a day.

This is highly organised systematic begging of their part.

However, look at Irish life, from the Church clerical abuse coverup, to the Flood, Lindsay, Moriarty and Morris tribunals and the ripping off of consumers in this country. It is not as if we don't have our own fair share of chancers.

Very true, but I often hear this arguement. Having chancers in Ireland doesn't mean which should readily accept new ones. I feel equally annoyed no matter what the race, colour or creed of the beggar.

We are not over run with refuges. We have a problem accepting that people now want to come here for a better life. Some come to escape various forms of persucution, some come to earn money. And yes, some are chancers who have come to con and freeload of our social welfare system.

Around 7,000 arrive every year, we deport around 600 a year, leaving us with a net gain of around 6,400. That equates to 64,000 people over 10 years, that would consitute a bigger community that the Travellers. Ok perhaps we aren't being over run, but their are a fair few arriving each year. At a conservative estimates around 70% of assylum claims are fraudulant.

From what I hear, money gained by begging by foreign nationals is usually send overseas, I urge anyone to stand outside the postoffice in phisboro or dorset and see they amount of cash being sent of overseas it startling (I talked to peeps in the post offices). At best guess the money is being used to bring relatives and friends over too ... self-perpetuating system.

here ends my ramble.

Meh

Originally posted by Unjaku
Agree. This reflects the fact that only roughly 1% of asylum proposals to the Irish government are accepted, in contrast to maybe 14% in the UK and greater numbers in other european countries.

Incorrect

Ireland granted refugee status to 456 individuals in the regular asylum procedure (first-instance decisions) during 2001, resulting in a 9 percent approval rate. Additionally, 478 individuals were granted asylum at the appeals stage during 2001. About 70 asylum seekers were granted temporary protection during the year.

Ireland denied 4,532 applications during 2001, while another 7,195 applications were deemed abandoned and administratively closed.

So out of 5536 yes/no decisions made last year, 1004 people were allowed stay in Ireland -- an 18% approval rate. Even if you count the "abandoned" applications as "denied", it's still an 8% acceptance rate.

The Corinthian

Discussing refugees and asylum seekers in Ireland is going off topic, which is the endemic problem of beggars in Dublin. Roma gypsies are an easy target as they are easily identifiable as a traditionally itinerant but not homeless community. To be honest, the topic of gypsies actually requires a thread in itself as begging only touches on their traditional industries.

Generally I find that those beggars that will try to intimidate me are Irish. Gypsies are experienced enough to know that, at best, they’ll get le corne from me. On the other hand, while many Irish beggars are homeless, many are not, but are in fact heroine addicts who will commute between their ‘spots’ and the nearest Health Board clinic every day.

Regardless of the situation, it is very rare that someone has absolutely no alternative but to beg. Ireland has a very good social security net, as well as many private organisations that do a lot of good work helping people out of their ruts.

If we accept this, then giving to beggars is simply perpetuating a twilight existence of self-loathing for those in need or funding a fraudulent industry. The only benefit that remains to such donations is that it sooths the conscience of the giver.

Red Devil

Ireland's social security system:

Sorry if this goes on too long and sounds like a whine!

I have been unemployed for the last 10 weeks and have signed on for the last six. I don't have enough stamps built up so I get Unemployment Assistance as opposed to Unemployment benefit.
This is €118.80 per week.

I managed to get my student loan down to €2500 from €5000 during the summer labouring. I now pay €30 per week off my loan as it is the minimum that the bank would accept. My €90 left overpays for bills and food etc. and I have payed my rent up to this point from my savings.

Next week I have a couple of interviews and who knows I might get lucky. I have bitten the bullet and started to apply for anything in the last fortnight.

For what I want to do long term I am underqualified and lacking experience, but for other things such as stacking shelves etc. I have been told they only want people who will stick around. With Christmas coming you would think I would have no problem, but when i show my CV I am told that it is not worth their time as I probably leave once i get a better offer(which is probably true). I hurt my back playing football so at this moment in time labouring is not a option.

I have applied for a rent allowance but because I share my apartment with a girl I have been refused. We are not a couple but because she is female the apartment is considered unsuitable for rent relief. I can't afford this months rent as last months was payed by credit card and i owe that bill, basically things have caught up on me.

I told the woman who refused my allowance that i was effectively being made homeless as I have tried to get a new apartment but no landlord will accept me while i am on UA. Her reply was well I can't do anything.

Now I will probably get through all this and something could work out but in reality i could be homeless in 4 weeks time due to the terms of my lease.

So I think after all this I could safely say that I have gained an insight into the social welfare system in this country.

In reality, from where I am sitting, slipping through the net can be easier than it seems.

(needless to say I am not the one who is paying this phone bill.)