How will you be voting in the upcoming Nice treaty ?

mayhem#

Originally posted by irishguy
Situation 1.
Imagine if you were an international manufacturing company [such as DELL who employ about 4,500 staff in Ireland most unskilled or semi-skilled] would you move to Ireland where you would pay €7.80 per hour for a factory worker [starting rate of pay in DELL €.50 margin of error] or would you move to Poland where you will be able to get all the same facilities and access to the European market plus you will receive many government and EU incentives which you would no longer be able to receive in Ireland on top of this you can get people to work for around €3.00 per hour [which is a fare wage in Poland]

So it's allright for Ireland to re-build it's economy using these methods but not for other countries?

Situation2.
Imagine if you were an international high technology company would you locate in Ireland where you would have expensive and sporadic access to broadband/phone calls, very poor public transport/roads/rail or you could locate in another EU member states such as Germany or France where you would receive cheap access to broadband/cheaper phone calls and an have access to extremely good services and transport, all this and it will cost you the same wages [the biggest single cost to high technology companies] you would also have the same company tax rate.
If the niece treaty goes ahead in its current form this is what you will have plus there will be 1 million more farmers producing cheap food which will price Irish farmers out of the market and they will be thousands of migrant workers moving here as early as 2004

So we should vote no to protect our mis-managed, monopolised economy?
When the Nice treaty will receive a YES vote we will be on the way to having to "obey" to certain levels European legislation. This will make it impossible for fiasco's like the current lack of broadband in this country to happen again. It will also show the Irish farming industry for what it really is: an over-subsidised, near death industry that couldn't support itself if the lives of all the farmers in the country depended on it...

bonkey

Originally posted by Hobbes
Someone give Meh a cookie.. that's what I wanted to see.

What I find interesting is that by and large, only people urging a yes vote are actually using the Nice Treaty to back up their claims.

I accept Gandalf's reasoning to vote no - a loss of sovereignty (although technically, we're not ruled by a sovereign, so its a loss of independance).

I accept that both sides are engaged in FUD.

However, my attitude is very simple. It is undeniable that (to date) our membership of the EEC/EC/EU has been beneficial to this country, and each step of greater involvement has involved a loss of independance.

Regarding the current treaty, I have yet to see a single claim from the No camp which clearly outlines a new risk to the nation. We get a lot of FUD, a lot of downright untruth, and a lot of people making incredibly illogical assumptions.

Unless someone can give me a credible reason to vote no, I will stick with the continued assumption that continued and increased involvement will continue to offer this country long-term benefits.

Here's an example of the strangeness.

We hear from teh No camp about the Rapid Reaction Force. The Yes crew (usually in the form of Meh or Swiss) reply with the exact quote showing that we cannot be made to take part in this. The reply is "but our government will only want to suck up to Europe / are being bullied by Europe, so we wont have a choice.".

This, of course, is coming from the same people who say that the only reason we have a second referendum is because our government wants to suck up to Europe / is being bullied by Europe, so we dont have a choice.

Huh? The logic defeats me. Either we're already screwed because our government are out to shaft us, or there is no reason to believe we are screwed in the future. In other words - Nice is irrelevant to the "our government will screw us" argument. Which equally reverses to say that our government being out to screw us is a seperate issue to Nice.

The same applies to all the other issues where the No camp are saying that "oh, the treaty may say that, but when push comes to shove, we will have no choice."

If this is true, then we have no choice today. We are still screwed. Which begs the question as to why there arent continuous threads here about how evil the EU is, why we should leave it. But there arent.

The EU is not out to screw us. It is out to improve the EU. You can believe or disbelieve this, its your choice.

For me - its simple. My nationality is not affected by the EU. My Irishness has nothing to do with the choices we make. We are not being conquered against our will (yes - I know you probably disagree with me Type, but we're not digging that endless discussion up again). I was, am, and will be Irish, regardless of the fact that I live in Switzerland, and regardless of the outcome of this treaty.

Yes, there are downsides. Yes, there will be a degree of imposed hardship as we live up to our requirements in helping other nations arise out of the poverty we were helped out of 20-odd years ago. I am willing to live with this, because I believe that in the long run it is a worthwhile goal.

If you believe that the EU should be a "community", then campaign for Ireland to leave the EU. Nice is irrelevant - you dont have equality today.

If you believe that the EU is undermining our independance, then campaign for Ireland to leave the EU, because our independance is undermined today.

If you beliece that our government will sell us up the swannee, then campaign for Ireland to leave the EU, because our government can do that today.

These are not Nice issues. They have nothing to do with Nice. The EU today does not satisfy the concerns anyone has mentioned about a post-Nice EU. This is being ignored completely.

jc

Shazbat

I'm voting no for a few reasons but the way Europe can more or less force things down our throat if they want disturbs me a bit. The larger countries will call all the shots if the Nice treaty goes through and we will more or less just have a token vote.

Our loss of a commisioner and less weight in our votes, is as pointed out by the yes camp, a fairer from a european point of view when you take our population to votes ratio into consideration. (When you are in a position of power you are supposed to do something for yourself with it not just give it away like some meek little lamb.) But when there will be a couple of hundred million people in the EU and when you realise that only about 4 million of those are Irish our votes aren't going to be worth jack-shít.

And our so called political leaders are badgering us to give away our power, amid claims that we should 'give something back'. The country is flat broke at the moment and that is when the geniuses in government are saying that we should give something back. No wonder the economy is in a mess with people like that in charge.

Although for some reason unknown to me Luxembourg has a very high ratio of votes for their population, which makes a bit of a mockery of the yes camps claims that the proposed weighting of votes is more democratic. When you look at luxembourg it is as clear as day that is not the case.

I think that this whole EU thing has lost the run of itself and where the hell is it actually going? As far as I can see people are aligning themselves on one side or another, and I don't think anybody has the same reason for doing so. Its all a bit confusing.

But what is clear is that I can't honestly see the Nice treaty doing any favours for the underpriviliged and working class people of Ireland (and it will be people living in the larger cities and towns). I risk being pounced upon for scaremongering/etc but it is these peoples jobs who will be at risk. The semi-skilled workers will be competing against hungrier less demanding europeans, it won't be the guy in the armani suit driving his BMW down the road who will be lining himself up against immigrants in job interviews.

I believe that the Nice treaty will be rejected big time if there is a large turn out in the polls of working class people, as it is these people who could lose out the most.

Occidental

First off, I voted no last time. The reasons were as follows,

1: Ireland’s open door to immigrants while most of Europe sits on fence to see how it goes.
2: When FF, FG and Labour all agree on something, it’s normally a bad sign.

I’ve now read most of the treaty and the various blurb pushed through the letterbox. Most of the treaty I have no issue with and most of the blurb I have dismissed as rubbish.

My big problem was still the issue of immigration. However, having read the Irish Times yesterday it now seems that the government is back-pedalling at a fair rate of knots and talk of limited workers visas is filling the air around Leinster House. If this proves to be true, I will most likely put aside any remaining fears about the treaty and vote yes. Strangely enough it is only now that I realise my fears were never about the treaty itself. They were actually about our Government and Irish politicians in general, who I have learned, should not be trusted at any cost. Whether I vote yes or no to Nice they’ll feck it up for us anyway.

Typedef

Originally posted by Occidental
My big problem was still the issue of immigration. However, having read the Irish Times yesterday it now seems that the government is back-pedalling at a fair rate of knots and talk of limited workers visas is filling the air around Leinster House.

Actually that is an election ploy. When one examines what is really being proposed it becomes evident that in fact the government will allow unrestricted movement and quote "reserves the right" to review that later.

Thus the open door policy stays unless the government thinks it necessary to stop said policy, quoting Minister of State on Morning Ireland yesterday.

Personally I welcome any East European immigrants, it's flattering when someone decides to move to your country on a quasi-long term basis.
That said I don't think the government of Ireland will in fact impose immigration bans because it would be bad for relations with the new aceeded countries and since the Minster for Foreign affairs has already written to each of the applicant countries to say they are totally welcome to travel to Ireland unrestricted it would in fact be a major embarressment to the government to be seen to go back on that in front of the government's 'European partners'.

mayhem#

And what's actually wrong with this "un-restricicted immigration"?
In my opinion some of the arguments used in favour of a no vote are borderline rascist....

Typedef

mayhem# the Yes campaign can't have it both ways.

Either you are allowing unrestricted access (as is still the case and which I welcome) or you are not.

So if unresricted immigration is a non problem the Yes side should not be using it as a point to sell the Treaty because that too would be 'racist'

J'Accuse

Occidental

Originally posted by mayhem#
And what's actually wrong with this "un-restricicted immigration"?
In my opinion some of the arguments used in favour of a no vote are borderline rascist....

I don't have a problem with new countries having un-restricted immigration to the whole of the EU. I do however have a problem when that access is only to Ireland (are Sweden, Denmark and Holland still planning free access). What's even more worrying is Typedef's comment, which hints that we may only be doing it as a way of saving face for our Minister for Foreign affairs.

mayhem#

Originally posted by Typedef
mayhem# the Yes campaign can't have it both ways.

Either you are allowing unrestricted access (as is still the case and which I welcome) or you are not.

So if unresricted immigration is a non problem the Yes side should not be using it as a point to sell the Treaty because that too would be 'racist'

J'Accuse

Sorry, it might be due to the fact that I haven't had any coffee yet, but you've lost me there......

mayhem#

I think that one of the problems also is that a lot of people confuse the real contents of the treaty with the "spin" that the Irish government is trying to put on it.
I am voting YES, but it makes me sick to the pit of my stomach to know that, that also is what Bertie wants me to do. Even though he wants it for completely different reasons....

dathi1

netwhiz,
I've just printed 5,000 cards on the points you made for distribution at strategic locations. Thanks.

PH01

The Last Word ran a SMS Poll on Nice the other day.

Yes - 64%
No - 36%

ReefBreak

After reading this thread with an open mind, I've decided to absolutely vote Yes to Nice. To me, it seems that most of the nay-sayers are opposing on idealogical grounds with very little to support their arguements other than various assumptions and conjecture. Gandalfs post, starting with

What I find interesting is that by and large, only people urging a yes vote are actually using the Nice Treaty to back up their claims. ...

pretty much sums it up.

I wonder what the No-sayers would be promoting if we were voting on entry into the EU? Just a thought.

As for Daithi's card, I imagine you've put Mehs response on the other side? ...

Since netwhizkid either won't or can't quote from the Treaty to back himself up, I'll post a few relevant quotes from it myself ...

Typedef

Originally posted by ReefBreak
Gandalfs post, starting with pretty much sums it up.

Unfortunately for that argument ReefBreak I quoted Treaty text here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?postid=592413#post592413 and you will find a neat little link to a html version of the Treaty Text in that post and I am voting No, as is Gandalf,dathi1,Shazbat,Occidental,Cork,netwhizkid and many others (I could have a few in that list wrong) , so it is an erroneous proposition to suggest the 'No side' has not investigated the Treaty Text itself, or to suggest that collectively the 'No side' has not sufficient knowledge of the Treaty to cast aspersions on it's content or to argue against it's proported mermits or lack thereof.

I will admit I am not in favour of European integration and yet even I was amazed that the Federalist movement would think it could pass this Treaty that is so disadvantageous to small countries off on to the pro-Federalist electorate of small countries. That supposition was proved incorrect in the case of the Irish electorate, which I must remind yet again was the 'only' case of plebiscite on the Nice Treaty throughout Europe and yet still for all the rhetoric about 'democracy' in the Nice Treaty, that democratic decision by the Irish people and the soverign state of Ireland has been manipulated and degraded by the re-run of the Nice Treaty Referendum. The re-run that the government of Ireland has arguably been forced,pressured, lobbied call it what you will into instigating by the Federalists within the European Union.

I wonder what the No-sayers would be promoting if we were voting on entry into the EU? Just a thought.

I would not regard myself as anything as static and implyable as a nay-sayer, rather a reasonably intellegent adult who has evaluated the information available and made a decision conducive to what I think is in the best interests of Ireland.
I would argue against entry into political Union, and would rightly point out that engagement in the Free Trade aspects of the European project are advantageous to this state. Ironically this is almost exactly the position the British Tory party has adopted and where I happen to agree, even though I am an Irish Republican. The Tory party opposes Britian's political participation in Europe on the grounds of protecting British soveringty and because Britiain feels excluded from what Michael Portillo has dubbed the "unshakable axis" between France and Germany in European affairs. This axis excludes Britain to a large extent,and that exclusion is not conducive with Britain's economic size or global politcal power. So it is my contention that if a country as relatively big and powerful as Britain finds itself isolated and excluded in Europe that Ireland would in fact be inconsequential in the political landscape of a Federal Europe, even though Ireland is a nation which is more then the sum of it's four million citizens.
Because Ireland is a nation the Irish people have over a long time built a soverign state to represent the views of this nation, thus I would contend that Irish participation in a Federal Europe or a political union of any sort in Europe is in fact incompatible with representative governance and the right of the people of Ireland to enact self determinate governance. A Federal Europe can only really amount to a one man one vote scenario where the majority of 'Europe' will have the largest say over important matters that pertain to Ireland as opposed to the Irish people having that say and what that ultimately is not is a democracy that takes into account the wishes of the minority (ie Ireland in Europe) but rather marginalises the minority in it's own self governance.

Thus I will not be voting in favour of the Nice treaty, as I am primarily as my sig suggests "requantifying Ireland's democracy" and I just don't happen to think that the Treaty itself (and yes I have read important articles and debated their meaning) is advantageous to Ireland and as an Irish voter it is my duty to vote for what I think are in the best interests of this country, not for Europe as a whole, Italian skirt makers or Alpen Yodlers, but Irish interests and Irish interests alone.

Mike66

vote NO

or else FF will squander another 750 million
Euro

750,000,000

In other words they have added another 250 Euro to the debt of each man woman and child on this Island


Bertie and the PDs are corrupt

Paulg

Everyone knew that all the major parties were going to re-run the referendum.. So why did all ye "No Voters" (stupid idiots) vote for them, so that they could hold a 2nd referendum....

G

Bertie and the PDs are corrupt

Maybe I'm wrong but I actually trust Mary Harney. She's done a lot of good for the Irish economy and she seems to be an honest, down to earth politician (if there is such a thing). I'd happily see her in Bertie's place, spare tyre n' all

Charlie said Bertie was the most evil of the lot, referring to his party members back then... I'd say there's a big can o' maggots in his sky rocket, the stutterin' prik.

G

and I'm still No2Nice.

ReefBreak

A re-run of the Nice Referendum was part of the FF and PD election manifesto, as was the case with (I think) FG and (maybe?) Labour. People voting for these parties were therefore voting for a re-run of Nice.

So when the no people are complaining, sorry whinging, about the undemocratic nature of a second election (and what's undemocratic about an election?), they should bear this in mind.

Meh

Originally posted by Paulg
Everyone knew that all the major parties were going to re-run the referendum.. So why did all ye "No Voters" (stupid idiots) vote for them, so that they could hold a 2nd referendum....

I'd say that a substantial number (most?) of the No voters didn't vote for FF/FG/PDs/Labour at all. Remember that Nice version 1 only had a 35% turnour, of which 55% voted no. So only 19.25% of the electorate actually voted No last time out. Green/SF/WP/Independent support probably adds up to this figure easily, even if you assume that everyone who voted No to Nice also voted in the general election.

Originally posted by Mike66:
vote NO

or else FF will squander another 750 million
Euro

Please explain exactly how rejecting the Nice Treaty will magically balance the Irish budget.

dathi1

The Last Word ran a SMS Poll on Nice the other day.

yes heard that myself...The majority of listeners to today fm are 21 35 age group mrbi but the 21 - 28 year olds never if rarely go out to vote...yes they're mad sms'ers which is the way the todayFM poll is taken but voting at a polling booth is another story. The polls last time around had the yes vote way out in front 2 days before the vote. Its all down to turnout.
I reckon its gona be another NO. Good thing too ..I knew reef was a secret Yes man anyway Anyway things are hoting up brilliantly out there and its going to be a very interesting 2 weeks. I've managed to do a lot of campaigning in places where I contract with a lot of success...so keep the ball rolling and get the NO vote out. Then we can stop this 2 tier EU state in its tracks and protect Irish jobs.

No2Nice Let the rest of Europe have its say too.

Typedef

Originally posted by ReefBreak
A re-run of the Nice Referendum was part of the FF and PD election manifesto, as was the case with (I think) FG and (maybe?) Labour. People voting for these parties were therefore voting for a re-run of Nice.

Not exclusively. If said parties had been single issue parties then yes perhaps you could say that people were voting for a re-run, however the main thrust of the election campaign on the FF/PD front was keeping the economy 'robust' to borrow a Harneyism, to 'reign in government spending' and deliver on the usual bumpf about schools and hospitals, all of which turned out to be lies, however if you were one of the few who actually voted for the FF/PD coalitition because you wanted to see a re-run of the Nice Treaty and didn't care about all that other stuff, you wouldn't, right now feel lied to and would feel like you had gotten exactly what you voted for in the last election.

So when the no people are complaining, sorry whinging, about the undemocratic nature of a second election (and what's undemocratic about an election?), they should bear this in mind.

Oh no doubt I do bear it in mind, however I recognise that since all major parties were stating that they would re-run the Nice Referendum, voting for one of the other main government opponents would have not redressed this griveance for you. You would have had to vote for a so-called 'fringe party', where not every constituancy had a candidate from one of these parties running.

However since you brought it up, I had been intending to vote for Fianna Fail because of the Belfast Agreement up until Bertie Ahern stated Fianna Fail would re-run the Nice Referendum, so duely I voted Green and independant so that I could get a more representative view on this matter into the Dail.

Still it is unlikely that most people would vote for a so called 'fringe candidate' on the single issue of Nice and I think you would be hard put to find a voter for any party who agrees with 'everything' the party does.

However if you are right that the majority of people voted for a re-run of Nice by voting for the government then how come considering between Fianna Fial, Fine Gael,Labour and the Progressive Democrats there is 70-80% of all votes normally cast represented in this Republic all of whom are pro-Nice parties and still the public defeated Nice when it was put to the polls?

Thus the real gauge of public opinon on the issue was the Referendum, not the election and the re-run is a sinister attempt to cast aside the public's opinon on the Nice Referendum. It is in fact irresponsible for the government of Ireland not to have immediately set about to renegotiate the Treaty of Nice from the moment that document was defeated by the public, because the fuction of parlimentary governance is allegedly to represent the views of the public and once the Irish government took the attitude that it was not in fact going to renegotiate the Nice Treaty in conjunction with the Irish people's decision on the Nice Treaty it in effect failed in it's responsibility to represent the wishes of the people of Ireland.

Therefore the process of Irish Referenda and Democratic representation has been interfered with by an authoritarian government which believes that it, and it's European partners are better equiped to decide what is right for the Irish people and the Irish Republic and the Irish Republic's constitution in place of the Irish people who decided on what they wanted in that constitution and were promptly told (within days of the result) that the returned result was unacceptable.

Thus the Irish government has failed in it's responsibility to the Irish people and constitution. In every single other Referendum in Ireland the result has been accepted and acted upon, except fo the Nice Referendum, where as if by magic the Irish government has decided that the Nice decision is simply too important to have a representative opinon of the Irish people hold sway, no instead it has told a whole load of lies to the electorate to get itself re-elected, lies like the state of the public finance and job creation (where 90% of the jobs being created pre-election were in the public sector) and then has the audacity to turn around and say "the people voted for another Nice Referendum", when patently the people voted for the verbose election lies spewing from the Fianna Fial party. Promises like "No return to borrowing", "The Bertiebowl will be bult and the 2008 European Cup will come to Ireland", "Government Spending will be controled", "No spending cuts for health,education...." and so on. That is the manifesto the people of Ireland voted for and that manifesto has been so utterly proved to be a lie within just four months of the election I am now wondering why it is that since the excuse of "Misinformation" was used to re-run the Nice Treaty the opposition parties are not now using the excuse of "Misinformation" to have the general election re-held?

Logically one excuse to abrogate and negate democracy implys the other.

swiss

Originally posted by Mike666:

vote NO

or else FF will squander another 750 million

Where did you get this pearl of wisdom? An official government source perhaps? I'd love you to show me the source - a link would be nice.

Bertie and the PDs are corrupt

Again, my eyesight seems to be deficient, but I can't see your explanation for this gem. Are you familiar with the concept of libel? You can't just bandy around accusations of corruption without evidence.

Originally posted by PaulG:

So why did all ye "No Voters" (stupid idiots) vote for them, so that they could hold a 2nd referendum....

Keep it civil. Typedef has already demonstrated that voting for a government party does not necessarily mean that one endorses all of their policies. For once I agree.

PH01

Originally posted by dathi1
yes heard that myself...The majority of listeners to today fm are 21 35 age group mrbi but the 21 - 28 year olds never if rarely go out to vote...yes they're mad sms'ers which is the way the todayFM poll is taken but voting at a polling booth is another story.

Yes those old fogies can't work those little buttons on those little telephones. However, 21 - 35 is when most people start voting - if you haven't started voting by the time your 35 you probably never vote.
But this age group can be split down the middle.
Yes 18 - 24 age group rarely vote - too busy having sex and getting drunk (or is that the other way around) to bother voting. And if they're likely to vote it will be the protest against the establishment vote, much garnered by the Greeners and the Shinners.
25 - 35 is a different kettle of fish. This is when most people start to become part of the establishment - getting married, having kids, having a career, having a pension. All that brings a vested interest to your own political outlook and you will start to vote often for established people and parties.

The polls last time around had the yes vote way out in front 2 days before the vote. Its all down to turnout.

Yes ur right there, it's all down to turnout. Last time the turnout was 33% (or near that figure). But I reckon if the turnout this time is over the 38% the 'Yes' campaign will have it. Last time in the two constituencies in which there was a majority of Yes voters the turnout was also the highest in the country.

Shazbat

Originally posted by swiss

Are you familiar with the concept of libel? You can't just bandy around accusations of corruption without evidence.
.

Funny you should mention this.

It seems (IMO) that moderators pick and choose when to warn people on libelous remarks. (in other words it seems ok to libel certain parties, yet not others).

As for the dictionary link. Classy.

fisifan01

I used to be pro Nice but having read both sides of the argument i will now be voting NO.

FACT: THE NICE TREATY IS A RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY

Pro Nice scaremongers claim that the treaty is pivotal to the expansion of Europe and that the eastern european applicants will loose out in the long term. This is completely wrong. Expansion can go ahead with out the Nice treaty and it will not negatively affect the applicant nations in the long term. Big Businesses are dying for nice so that they can use these countries as a source of cheap Labour. IBEC can affort to splash out thousands on pro Nice propaganda advetisements yet they were complaining about paying their workers the minimum wage. The nice treaty was something the Irish people had all ready rejected by the Irish people last year. Yet Bertie wants to force the decision upon us again. If it fails to pass this time it is likely that there will be a third referendrum. "oh why not keep shoving this treaty in to people`s faces until we get the answer that WE want" is what the Fianna Fail phillosophy is. Yet they call themselves democratic. The Nice treaty will cater for mass privatisation which will allow Multinationals to exploit ireland`s public services to siut their own ends. This will mean that the electricty transport and perhaps even the waterworks will no longer be under our control. Oh why stop there why not sell off the Gardai or the department of education to microsoft or Intel.

ReefBreak

FACT: THE NICE TREATY IS A RIGHT WING CONSPIRACY

It's a fact? Riiiight.

The Nice treaty will cater for mass privatisation which will allow Multinationals to exploit ireland`s public services to siut their own ends. This will mean that the electricty transport and perhaps even the waterworks will no longer be under our control. Oh why stop there why not sell off the Gardai or the department of education to microsoft or Intel.

And you're really convinced of this are you? Personally, I believe it's a perfect example of crusty, uninformed No to Nice balderdash.

dathi1

And you're really convinced of this are you? Personally, I believe it's a perfect example of crusty, uninformed No to Nice balderdash.

I would consider myself pro Business and non crusty I really think that Nice will cause more problems for Irish Business small and large because of the power downgrade that we will experience under Nice.


NO 2 Nice Crap Treaty, More power for Germany and France less for us and the smaller states.. Dump it! Vote No and re negotiate for an Equal Europe.

ReefBreak

I would consider myself pro Business and non crusty I really think that Nice will cause more problems for Irish Business small and large because of the power downgrade that we will experience under Nice.

NO 2 Nice Crap Treaty, More power for Germany and France less for us and the smaller states.. Dump it! Vote No and re negotiate for an Equal Europe.

Daithi, at least you're arguments are somwhat more reasoned. Granted, I don't agree with it myself, but it's better than "Nice is a right-wing conspiracy!" or "the electricity will no longer be under our control!"

Typedef

Electricity will be 'under our control', however if you read the EU's official website you will notice that in the taxation section it proposes using enhanced co-operation and qualified majority voting within that structure to amongst other things harmonise Energy Taxes, which it uses as an example of where it thinks it would be 'good' to harmonise taxes.

Also the Treaty of Nice requires nations participating in enhanced co-operation to encourage as many to participate in said co-operation as possible.

In my view governments should bi-laterally or multi-laterally be allowed to harmonise tax, however that should not be done on an avant garde basis using EU structures to do so.