Analysis Paralysis - ODTR - Future Delivery of Broadband in Ireland

De Rebel · 21-09-2002 12:22am #1

Has anybody else read this? Future Delivery of Broadband in Ireland

77 pages of "Does Ireland need Broadband"

Is this ODTR outfit for real??????

I started commenting on the documnet but the post would have gone on forever. PLEASE download it (connection speeed allowing) and read it. Even skim through it.

They just fail to grasp the point. Its not about occasional users. For Ireland to be at the races in the International Economy in 2010 means having a "wired" economy NOW.

And worst of all - its not an "Action Plan", "Set of Targets", "Statement of Intent" its a ........... "Consultation Document" An opportunity for more waffle and justification for more non-achivement.

Jeeze my blood is boiling.

Why not stop the press releases, stop the conferences, stop the navel gazing, and do the bloody job.

Or resign.

:mad:

sceptre · 21-09-2002 2:09am

I'm amazed and appalled.

And that's just because the ODTR are still distributing their reports as bandwidth hogging and potentially virus laden MS Word documents rather than PDF (for example). Annoying having to strain the reports through a virus checker after grabbing anything from the ODTR site. Note to the ODTR: Not everyone has a copy of MS Word. Leaving aside some more speciality packages (like open office) it requires a package that costs money to read your reports. There's a long list of formats that have available (free) working multi-platform readers.

On the contents of the document, see my first sentence.

stormkeeper · 21-09-2002 2:16am

Originally posted by De Rebel
77 pages of "Does Ireland need Broadband"

Hmm... What are they on, writing 77 pages of possibly meaningless drivel... I mean, you could write the nitty gritty of it in around 5-10 pages, maybe 20 for an in depth analysis and still come to a conclusion that, yes, we do need broadband, and it is a necessary step in becoming the E-Hub of Europe, as well as an important step in the information age. I'm going to cut it short here now, since I haven't anything else to say, but perhaps the people with more experience than myself in the technical field could elaborate a bit more?

Xian · 21-09-2002 11:05am

Originally posted by Kennett

quote:

Originally posted by De Rebel
77 pages of "Does Ireland need Broadband"

Hmm... What are they on, writing 77 pages of possibly meaningless drivel... I mean, you could write the nitty gritty of it in around 5-10 pages, maybe 20 for an in depth analysis and still come to a conclusion that, yes, we do need broadband

Or just simply say "yes" and be done with it :rolleyes:

pork99 · 21-09-2002 11:26am

we're already so far behind we might as well forget about it - nobody is prepared to do what is required which is to sack eircom and put this country's telecom network out to tender with the requirement that any company that undertakes it provides FRIACO and dsl for around 30-40 euro pm

but I despair of any progress - all the Irish jokes are right in the end!!!!

our destiny is to be El Salvador with crap weather! we just do not but belong in the 21st century with our stupid smug superstitious backward Catholic mentality

PiE · 21-09-2002 11:28am

Seriously, how can Etain Doyle and all her oh-so-tech-savvy goons sleep at night...

Canadian · 21-09-2002 11:34am

I hate to say it, but after looking at the document briefly it seems like this group was set up simply to allow the government to say they are doing something about the problem...without actually wanting to do anything about the problem.

Savvy political stuff, but not unique. They set up some stupid department to do studies and make recommendations, they don't give them any teeth, and they staff them with yes-men (or women) who attempt to hang on to their sweet jobs as long as possible.

Normally governments do this with contriversial things like abortion or drug legalization for fear of offending either side and delaying any decision until after the next election. I'm not sure who they would offend by dealing with broadband tho - maybe their friends at the encumbant for some reason (personal offshore financial reason??)

Not unlike a few african republics who do the same sort of things, it points to corruption. (either that or stupidity, and I'd hate to believe the heads of state here are that stupid).

Face it, Ireland is the only member of the EU in Africa.

SkepticOne · 21-09-2002 12:57pm

I agree that the document is too long and waffly for conveying some simple points which have been obvious to a lot of people for a long time.

Embedded in the waffle is some interesting points but these will be lost on those who might be in a position to change things. What these people require is short snappy summaries of research findings. The hope is that their staff will prepare such summaries for them.

Having said that, however, it is good that the ODTR are finally undertaking independent research. Ireland is too small to rely purely on market forces to supply consumer needs. A lot of the research from Ovum, for example, goes against what some have been led to believe by the dominant players.

timod · 21-09-2002 4:28pm

Originally posted by sceptre
Note to the ODTR: Not everyone has a copy of MS Word. Leaving aside some more speciality packages (like open office) it requires a package that costs money to read your reports. There's a long list of formats that have available (free) working multi-platform readers.

I emailed them ages back on that very topic. They offered to post the information to me...

jd · 21-09-2002 4:45pm

Originally posted by timod

I emailed them ages back on that very topic. They offered to post the information to me...

I asked them about 18 months ago..here is the email I sent..

Hi
I am wondering why you don't supply html versions of your documents. I know
you produce them using microsoft word, but even this program give an option
to save in html format. You could then give an extra link stating (html
format)
cheers
XXXXXXXXXXX

Dear Mr.XXXXXXXX,

Thank you for your feedback.

We have investigated the possibility of providing documents in multiple
formats on the web site.
However, we have found that the majority of our users can download Microsoft
Word documents.
Some of our documents are in Adobe Acrobat format for which we provide a
hyperlink to the Adobe site to download the Acrobat reader software.
We have placed a notice on the All Documents page which I have appended
below:
Note: All documents are in Microsoft Word format. If you have problems
downloading a document, please contact the ODTR at 01-804 9600. Please state
the number of the document you wish to download and a hard copy will then be
sent to you by post.

We have found this to be the best workaround for the moment but will contine
to investigate this issue as part of our ongoing review of the web site.
Thank you.

YYYYYYYYYYYY

De Rebel · 21-09-2002 7:11pm

Originally posted by jd
...you produce them using microsoft word, but even this program give an option to save in html format.

Have you ever seen the HTML that Word produces!!!! Im no programmer, but I ould guarantee that it would be larger than the Word format! (Of course your point is right, native HTML or Acrobat)

Originally posted by SkepticOne
Having said that, however, it is good that the ODTR are finally undertaking independent research.

It is oh so tempting to start to disect that report, issue by issue, item by item. I would actually question its indepencence, at least that of the final version. Was a draft completed by Ovum (a very reputable organisation) and subsequently amended ? Who requested amendments? What were the amendments? What were the terms of reference to Ovum? Take one example - Page 17. Take a quick look at the graph and summarise it for a senior politico - What does it tell you, Ireland has the highest Bar on the chart. Read it again, That actually means we are the worst. And look at the peer group !! Where are competing with those countries for jobs, etc. Compare us to the real competition US, UK, Germany, Singapore, Korea, Malasia. And anyway, the whole premis on that page is pretty confused. We have fewer ISDN lines than anybody else therefore we will probably have fewer DSL lines than anybody else therefore all is probably allright. Oh well maybe its because our lines cost more, but on the other hand maybe its becasue we don't want to go on line. Or maybe its a bit of both. etc.......... And thats only one page.

There are large numbers of Civil and Public Servants amusing themselves, at our expense, with these time wasting "high" political games. And the cartel (the incumbent and its "rivals") make hay in the meantime while our long term economic prospects suffer irreversible damage.

I've said it before, it really really needs one single minded person to cut through this waffle, pick 3 or 4 key deilverables from the wish list and press it through to completion.

Arrrggggghhhhhhhhh

NeMiSiS · 21-09-2002 7:22pm

"Note: All documents are in Microsoft Word format. If you have problems
downloading a document, please contact the ODTR at 01-804 9600. Please state
the number of the document you wish to download and a hard copy will then be
sent to you by post. "

Probably be cheaper and faster than ****ing downloading it

jd · 21-09-2002 7:32pm

Originally posted by De Rebel

Have you ever seen the HTML that Word produces!!!! Im no programmer, but I ould guarantee that it would be larger than the Word format! (Of course your point is right, native HTML or Acrobat)

I have-but I was being a smart ass...

yellum · 21-09-2002 8:32pm

http://office.microsoft.com/downloads/2000/Msohtmf2.aspx

Cleaner HTML

If everyone was to request a hardcopy the bean counters would then start wondering why people aren't happy with the word docs, or do they charge for the hard copies ?

Just thinking though that the ODTR are loaded aren't they ? So would they even care if all the IOFFL members started asking for hardcopies until pdf files were made.

dahamsta · 21-09-2002 10:29pm

Just thinking though that the ODTR are loaded aren't they ? So would they even care if all the IOFFL members started asking for hardcopies until pdf files were made.

Yeah, but IrelandOffline could give a few journalists a quiet nod in the direction of the accounts at the end of the year.

adam

yellum · 22-09-2002 1:14am

http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=site:www.odtr.ie++doc

400+ results from google when searching for doc on the odtr website

sceptre · 22-09-2002 1:26am

Originally posted by yellum
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&q=site:www.odtr.ie++doc

400+ results from google when searching for doc on the odtr website

Pinky are you thinking what I'm thinking?

Given that the ODTR don't see the disadvantages I'm sure in a moral sense people could be somewhat forgiven for making them see other disadvantages. Making documents on the web available to all just ain't the same thing as making documents available to people who shelled out a few hundred euro for MS Office.

It's a bit annoying that one single copy of full Acrobat (or even one of the freeware programs) could convert ALL those 400 documents to PDF in under an hour if the ODTR would only wise up and spend under 200 euro on that one copy.

PiE · 22-09-2002 1:40am

No, no, no... if all of us were to order a hardcopy of the 400 documents that'd just be mean...

...

Ocrasorm · 22-09-2002 2:05am

I wrote this mail to herself earlier today. I was very annoyed and I hope not too illogigal when I did it.

Why is the above document in Word format?? It's really odd that your office
above any other should use such a bloated format and also a format that is
capable of transmitting a virus.

Have you ever heard of PDF files. Smaller and safer. Many people don't even
have Word.

From what I hear, from the odd person that has the bandwidth and time to
download it, Document 02/79, as usual, misses the point and waffles on.

It really doesn't take a genius to see how Irish people are being ripped of
for internet access. This is nearly totally due to Eircom's monopoly. They
have been hoodwinking the public and your department for years. They have an
incredible ability to make what seem like logical arguments to support their
inflated prices. The consumers are suffering and even more importantly
e-commerce is suffering because of the lack of affordable broadband and the
high access rates for 56k (which usually means 33k).

As I have said in correspondence to your department before, if the public
can't depend on what's supposed to be an independent ODTR well where can
they turn to have their voice heard.

When one sees examples of you providing Word documents for download instead
of PDF documents all hope seems lost.

Please hire some savvy internet people like those on irelandoffline on
www.boards.ie and stop frustrating thousands of internet users with your
intransigence.

Ste- · 22-09-2002 11:49am

nice letter bet ur sweet ass you dont get a reply

yellum · 22-09-2002 12:05pm

I think because they're a government office they have to reply to all communications.

I've got my list of documents I want in hardcopy and will be ringing them Monday.

El_MUERkO · 22-09-2002 3:52pm

Yellum could you post your list here, some of those documents might be of interest to me

Dun · 22-09-2002 3:53pm

Originally posted by yellum
I think because they're a government office they have to reply to all communications.

I've got my list of documents I want in hardcopy and will be ringing them Monday.

Does it cost anything? If not I'll phone too and help get their attention

yellum · 22-09-2002 5:43pm

http://www.odtr.ie/odtr_national_conf_2002.asp

Has a load of docs in pdf format, so I guess they have the tools. Very strange that.

De Rebel · 22-09-2002 5:51pm

while i appreciate the merits of encouraging the ODTR to use .PDF rather than .DOC to diseminate its superflous waffle, te discussion is way off thread.

Can this thread be split please?

Dustaz · 22-09-2002 5:57pm

the reason i havent done much about it (dont know about sceptre) is that it seems noone really cares about the content of the original document. It seems all discussion on the original topic has been spent.

If opinions about the matter in hand start up again ill split it out:)

yellum · 22-09-2002 6:03pm

Originally posted by De Rebel
while i appreciate the merits of encouraging the ODTR to use .PDF rather than .DOC to diseminate its superflous waffle, te discussion is way off thread.

Can this thread be split please?

Ahem, technically we cannot discuss this until we download it in a format we can read or we get a hardcopy of it.

But yes, I do believe it should be split and apologies for dragging it off topic.

eircomtribunal · 22-09-2002 11:21pm

Originally posted by De Rebel

It is oh so tempting to start to disect that report, issue by issue, item by item.
Arrrggggghhhhhhhhh

I agree wholeheartedly with your opinion.

The ODTR may really not have the power to enforce anything meaningful - you might find the reply to the "Letter to Etain Doyle", today new on eircomtribunal, of interest - but the least we can expect from them is not to bury the few pieces of correct analyses and recommendation under a big pile of dog****e.
I find the survey on the Irish Internet user especially sickening. First he is getting castrated and then asked about his sexlife...

Could you still be tempted to do a version of the ODTR document, or parts of it, with comments that would enable journalists and politicians to distinguish the important from the nonsensical and be used as a feedback to the ODTR?

Can you email me on info@eircomtribunal.com? Peter

yellum · 24-09-2002 9:44am

Just to let you know that the ODTR sent me a pdf version of the document when I requested it ( just email info@odtr.ie ). I've gone through some of it and am far from impressed.

I'll have a better reply when I've read a hardcopy and have circled some stuff in red.

yellum · 24-09-2002 1:42pm

I emailed the ODTR about people giving them feedback on this document:

Damien,

We would welcome comments from all interested parties.
In particular, we would be interested in hearing feedback on the
questions posed in the conclusions section (Section 10).

Any responses should be marked
"Reference: ODTR Future Delivery of Broadband" and sent by post,
facsimile or e-mail to:

FREEPOST
Ms Ruth Kenny
Office of the Director of Telecommunications Regulation
Irish Life Centre
Abbey Street
Dublin 1
Ireland
Ph: +353-1-8049600 Fax: +353-1-804 9680 Email: kennyr@odtr.ie

to arrive on or before 5pm, October 25th 2002.

Here are the Conclusions and the questions they ask follow this:
I think all IrelandOffline members and visitors should reply in writing to these questions

10.1 Conclusions

This report has presented new research on indicative costs of rolling out networks for broadband and on current market demand for Internet and broadband services. The report has also overviewed various public policy initiatives and summarised some of the initiatives of interest in countries where broadband penetration has been most successful.

The current state of the ICT sector in Ireland is reflective of the global sentiment to telecoms and Ireland, no less than other countries, has been impacted by capital constraint and scaled back investment plans. Nevertheless, as outlined in Chapter 4, broadband technologies are being offered to Irish end users. The recent launch of DSL and flat rate Internet products will hopefully increase the level of Internet access in the coming year. International experience tells us that it can be up to 18 months before operators reach a critical mass of broadband connections through a combination of investments in upgraded networks and exchanges and progressive reductions in retail pricing of broadband products.

It would be the ODTR’s hope that cable operators can avail of the opportunities in this broadband market and we would hope to see in the short term increasing roll- out of cable modems in the market. It would also be hoped that alternative technologies including wireless technologies and mobile would contribute increasingly to the broadband rate in Ireland.

The research from MRBI suggests potential demand for broadband products and the ODTR would encourage demand side initiatives in terms of raising awareness and IT education and training, possibly promoted by government, which would enable more people to gain from Internet access. The role of education and training is equally important for SMEs.

The research by Ovum offers a benchmark for the industry to review and hopefully build on. The ODTR would welcome more debate of the issues raised on the supply side dynamics.

The objective of this report, as stated in the introduction is to inform the debate on the future delivery of broadband. The independent research and the technological and market data presented in this report we hope has enthused debate and contributed in some way to the further stimulation of broadband usage in Ireland.

The ODTR would be very interested in gathering views on the issues raised in this report and the following section includes some questions which interested parties may wish to respond to.

10.2 Further Consultation

1. Do you agree with the ODTR’s analysis of the current state of the Ireland’s broadband market as presented in chapter 4?

2. Do you consider that alternative ranges 512kbit/s, 2mbit/s and 5mbit/s are appropriate and why?

3. Do you agree with the analysis of initiatives adopted internationally and presented in chapter 7: which if any do you consider may have relevance for Ireland?

4. Do you agree with the conclusions of the TNS MRBI survey on demand for broadband in Ireland? Do you agree with the segmentation presented by MRBI? How important do you think demand stimulation is to the future delivery of Broadband?

5. What is your view of the Ovum work on network roll-out costs for broadband in Ireland? Do you agree with the assumptions, both demographic and technical, that Ovum have used to come to their cost conclusions? Are there alternatives you believe should be considered – please outline and give reasons?

6. The initiatives the ODTR is currently supporting which assist Internet usage/broadband are presented in this report. Please outline any further measures you consider we could adopt as appropriate?

I also got another email from the ODTR about the pdf documents

Hi Damien

Thank you for your email and your comments.

We are in the process of upgrading our website. As part of this exercise all documents going forward (once the new website is up and running) will be published in both word and pdf formats.

Kind regards,

Suzanne

spongebob · 24-09-2002 2:16pm

Jawwwwsssssus

The ODTR website is fine and always has been. The only anomaly is the word.doc problem which would take no time at all to fix.

Stop forwarding along Romanian word documents by email while ye are at it lads.

The ODTR takes time to answer consultations but is prepared to engage a bit once they have and they WILL answer your submission personally given time. The person who answers is the person dealing with that submission, it doesn't come from a PR or a PA.

M

Analysis Paralysis - ODTR - Future Delivery of Broadband in Ireland

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