This time it's political

Seb

Nice anti-Nice poster.

BrianD

All very well ... but where's the debate?? "This time it is political" what sort of statement is that? of course it's f**king political!

My view, vote "yes" as a vote "no" would expose us as a nation of scrounging hypocrites. HOWEVER! It's time we started kicking ass with our LAZY and GOOD FOR NOTHING representatives (MEPs) in Europe who do nothing except collect expense receipts. Where were they when the vote on Data Privacy was held? Why did they allow it to be passed when government policy was the exact opposite? Tossers like Dana need to be cleared out.

Let's take our rightful place in Europe and get effective representation!

dathi1

Let's take our rightful place in Europe and get effective representation!

By voting yes ?.........i DONT THINK SO. We loose more power with Nice and the larger states get more. Effective representation? VOTE NO TO NICE and get our rightful place in Europe with effective representation.

No2Nice

Seb

Jeez, all I wanted to say was nice poster....

thedrowner

nice or Nice, seb?


(sorry that was the worst joke EVER)

you helter shelter involved people (i presume some of u post here) were having a GREAT 'oul Nice treaty argument last night after the club....and all i wanted was to sit and sip me pint in peace

BrianD

Not to sure if I agree with you about losing power. The number of seats that Ireland has drops from 15 to 12 and the overall number of seats increases from 700 to 732 to accomodate the various new members. The only country not to lose seats is Germany.

There is no reason that we should lose power if we have effective representation. Lets face it "we" voted in the likes of Dana, a single issue candidate, who gives us no real representation. What we need is effective reps (as we do now!).

My view is that most of those backing the No campaign are those who would like to keep the country in the dark ages given their views on other social issue.

There is, of course, one reason to vote No on a point of principal - we have already voted on this issue and we shouldn't be seeing this issue again for 7 years.

BTW it is a nice poster!

dathi1

Not to sure if I agree with you about losing power. The number of seats that Ireland has drops from 15 to 12 and the overall number of seats increases from 700 to 732 to accomodate the various new members.

??

My view is that most of those backing the No campaign are those who would like to keep the country in the dark ages given their views on other social issue.

like what? most people on the no side are pro europe, pro democracy etc.. theres a few rats in the corner but Charlie Mc Crevy, Des Hannifin are a yes guys too. Or deye think the FF guys are all above board on "social" issues.

BrianD

My point on the parliament numbers being - is it going to make that much of a difference from the status quo? We are a small voice in Europe and will continue to be irrespective whether Nice goes through or not.

I am not influenced by party politics, especially those of dubious standing i.e. FF, simply on the basis of whether we are in Europe are not. It seems to be that the No campaign is dominated by Xenophobia and the bankrupt belief that we are a neutral nation. Neutral my arse! This nation has smugly believed it is neutral while conveniently relying on NATO for its defence. The only resaon we never joined was because the Brits were in it. If we are in a "united Europe" we might as well have the balls to defend it.

I can't blame people for voting no on a point of principal in that we should not be voting on this issue as it is not 7 years since the last election.

So what is the basis of your arguement for voting no?

In for a penny, in for a pound I say. Better to battle from within then from outside. Either way, as I have stated previously, we need a wake up call for European representatives.

dathi1

My point on the parliament numbers being - is it going to make that much of a difference from the status quo? We are a small voice in Europe and will continue to be irrespective whether Nice goes through or not.

Loosing our commissioner and losing a few extra votes with Nice is more than much of a difference.

If we are in a "united Europe" we might as well have the balls to defend it.

You mean Bush style? Do you think the Likes of Berilisconi, Chirac, Schroeder are not capable of hassling Third world countries like Algeria etc. Do you want to volunteer to fight for a Euro rapid reaction force in lets say Libya? Don't forget only a few weeks ago Morocco rightly clamed back a piece of rock on its coast from Spain and what happened? The godamm EU parliament at the behest OF GERMANY and SPAIN backed the Spanish military response and re take. Now if yer not too keen on those states you may be happy with that.. and our neutral status may not be exactly 100% perfect, But I don't want to see Irish kids conscripted to suppress foreign nations at the behest of some German Tyrant who's not too keen on Gadaffi or whomever.

So what is the basis of your argument for voting no?

as above and tons more.

Id say better to let Europe have its say just like we did (and was told to vote again) and re negotiate the Nice treaty to suit us all as Equal European Members.


No2Nice

BrianD

Your response borders on the hysterical and the irrational!! Where did you get conscription from? Who said we are going to attack Libya?? As for the territorial dispute between Morocco and Spain. You can describe landing of a few gendarmes on a rock by either side a military action if you like, in fact why not call it a full scale war. Territorial disputes will always exist just as man made borders will come and go. What about Gibralta? If Libya, or any other nation, proved a military threat to the EU, then there should be a force to counter. Ironically, history shows that the only countries that Europe need fear are its own nations - and we still need the Americans to sort things out!

One of the biggest blights in recent history was the horrific events at Srebinca (excuse the spelling) where we all stood by and allowed the safe haven to fall and up to 6,000 men summarily executed. And on it would have gone until the Americans stepped in. I would have prefered to have seen a European army in there preventing those events happening.

You say Irelands neutrality is less than 100% perfect...try 10%. Our neutrality is an absolute sham and is motivated by one thing only. Not to participate in any military alliance that contains the British. Thats all. We can't even defend our neutrality if called to like the Swiss and the Swedes. These are more deserving of the term neutral nations that I would describe as less than "100% perfect".

Like you, I have an ultra-cynical view of the so called "war on terror" and the very convenient label of "rogue state" that Dubya sticks on any one he dosen't like of dosen't fall into line as required. Do remember that Germany and France have proved to be least co-operative in the US's aim to form up a unitied front to justify an attack on Iraq (the folks who almost killed his daddy). Ireland stays quiet because we are 'neutral' and might scare off a few american tourists and the likes of Intel and Dell but we allow the use of Shannon on the QT just to stay on side. Europe has also been a voice of reason in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, though one would admit a voice that has been lost.


Not wanting to wander off the issue but I had a recent conversation with some folks from Wisconsin who are very much opposed to the USA's current foreign policy. Such opposition is deemed as almost unpatriotic and played down by the media (probably by our good friends at Clear Channel). A web site that represents the views of the "progressive community" is at www.commondreams.org and is worth a look!

Personally, I've swung from yes to no to undicided to back again. I'll will more than likely vote yes as I believe strongly in Europe and better to be in than out. Too many people are playing "were only a small nation" card (please give us some money). We will continue to be a small nation if we continue to think that way.

dathi1

Your response borders on the hysterical and the irrational!! Where did you get conscription from?

That's exactly what they said about Nato. Then Bertie decided to jump on to its umbrella proxy military wing Partnership For Peace or PFP, without going to the people first. That's not being hysterical or irrational that's fact. Conscription in a situation of war is not unheard of with our European neighbours. Do you think we will have a say on this? or if it goes to the new style of re-run referendum in Ireland how many times will we have to reject it before its accepted by the new superstate? PFP re-think again. If you think the EU backed Spanish Navy re-invasion of Morrocan territory is irrelevant then you're very naive.

One of the biggest blights in recent history was the horrific events at Srebinca (excuse the spelling) where we all stood by and allowed the safe haven to fall and up to 6,000 men summarily executed. And on it would have gone until the Americans stepped in.

Exactly.....I agree. The Germans and the Dutch(Srebinca) and the other Euro states were pussy footing around which lead to the whole Balkan conflict in the first place. The Germans particularly because they were guilty with helping their former allies Croatia (Tujman) to carve up Bosnia between themselves and Milosovich. Will we have to trust these powers with more power under NICE in a future EU reaction force as they respond to military situations to meet their own agenda.?

Now...I notice that you didn't respond to the power downgrade that we will endure on the Nice re-run being passed, but more power in the BIG STATES HANDS will make the EU more un democratic and unaccountable on Military Campaigns, Taxes (our favourable 12 % company tax for Intel, Dell etc.. will be the first thing they will latch onto this winter watch) Funding, etc etc.

Kill this bad treaty AGAIN vote no to nice and renegotiate for Ireland and the other small states

BrianD

Ah so you are now being a bit more realistic ..."conscription is not unheard of". In other words, its a vague possibility. You suggest that it is likely but then you refuse to countenance the fact that the proposed defence force may only be used at that. So when was conscription last used in Europe? Falklands? Vietnam? I have no idea myself. There is no evidence that Europe is goining to embark on any "military campaigns" what so ever or they will ever be any. Let's face it NATO hasn't got too many days out either its 50 odd year history.

I think you need to have a read over your Balkan history. European states may have encouraged the Balkan nations to pursue independence but I doubt anyybody would have envisaged the bloody slaughter that was let loose afterwards. Yes, Germany has a bloody past with Croatians which was always going to be an issue with any European intervention.
We all pussy footed around when we should have been actively involved and that should have been militarily to stop the slaughter. We all failed on that one - I recall that the Dutch received no air support because they didn't lodge the right paperwork.

As regards the reduction of power. As previously stated, we all ready have a small representation which is going to be marginally reduced. Granted we lose a commissioner which is certainly a minus but our representation in parliament is not critically reduced. Remember that the parliament tends to vote in parties rather than on a national basis. We are alloted seats according to our size - if this is a perceived problem it should have been raised years ago!

Jayus, we must be the only two people in the country debating the issue. Much easier to discuss Ray Burkes cash stuffed envelopes!

pastis

WHY I WILL VOTE YES FOR NICE:


Why settle for Sinead: - 26, from Drumshambo, Leitrim.
32a, 36, 28


When you could have Petra: - 26, from Tallinn, Estonia.
34c, 28, 36

SO, YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO ON OCTOBER 19

dathi1

pizz ouuuff frogy.

dathi1

I'll take Sinead any day.

dathi1

actually Sinead is 34 28 34