Is it likely that college fees will be re-introduced?

Not wanting to stop the Nice treaty debating going on, but I'm just wondering about what other people think about the possible re-introduction of college fees by the Government

The fact that it was even brought up is disgusting, let alone the idea that they are CONSIDERING the thing! The logic behind it is completely ridiculous, imho. :mad:

So what do other people think? Will they bring it back in or will they throw the idea to the way-side as a result of national uproar?

Raskolnikov

According to the TV3 news the government will have a E900 million budget deficit to fill next year. Considering that the government has already hiked the registration fee it wouldn't suprise me at all if fees were reintroduced.

DiscoStu

i cant help but wonder if this is a response by mccreevy to being made looks like an idiot on the late late show last week.

Chaos-Engine

I find it very hypocritical of the Department of Education to say that introducing fees will create an even playing field while critising the figures resently that show more students from fee paying schools go to college....


I'm furious. If Fees are re-introduced I serioously think I would get violent witht he next FF TD I meet. I'm not joking here.

My Situtation:
I Live with my mother and she has just been made redundent. She supports both my brother and myself. My Father isn't envolved financial or other. As grants take account for your parents income in 2001 and not today I DO NOT qualify for a grant of any kind. I resent the fact that the Dept of Educ thinks that my parents should pay for my education in anyway.
I have been paying my own way around here for the last year (minimal rent, the odd but toward bills and everything of my own).
If fees are re-introduced there is no possible way I can go to college. I'm in trinity and admissions fees are in excess of €4,500 each year... The minister says that he will just realocate moneys to those that need it. Not bloody likely considering that the whole question is more than likely been raised due to Charlie McGreedy twisting arms. Anyway IF that were the case been from a relatively decent south dublin suburb I would be seen as privilaged. Seen as my mother earns enough to pay her morgage just and still be in debt. I wouldn't fall into a exemption bracket from fees....Basically I'd KILL Bertie for ruining my career chances and causing me and my family much pain

I'm geting worked up

The General Situation:
By reintroducing fees those on the borderline similar to myself(very large number in todays society of widening rich/poor divid). They wouldn't be able to attend college. No. College would once again be purely for the Upper classes. No more Lower or Middle class....


Regarding what is known to the Dept of Educ as Lower-Income bracket households:
Reasons why non-attendences of college:

1. Going to College not activly encouraged in home and peer groups
2. Desire to support family NOW
3. Poor second level schools attended therefore little prospect of getting the points required
4. No Motivation

If College fees are reintroduced I suppose I'll have to join the army or navy and availe of their college access programs. Its the only way. But seen as I've smoked blow I would fail the drug test. Ah hell!! Time to go nuts on Berties face...... :mad: :mad: :mad:

Chaos-Engine

ANyway... Why the F****K can't ppl just accept a 1% rise in INcome tax and none of these education, health, electricity etc etc cost would need to be increased...
1%... Is that too much I ask...

Of course it isn't
Rising tax is probably the only promise the government will keep.
Man! Harney must be good in bed if she can get Bertie to do what he is told...

Xterminator

Have none of you actually listned to Noel Dempsey's plans before ranting?

Basically the government has limited resources. Given the current economic climate thats truer than ever.
It is a basic fact that if your resources are spread thinly, they make less impact than if targetted where they are most needed.

Currently the fees are paid for everybody, the rich, the average earners and the poor alike.
But the true cost of sending a child to college is far greater than just the fees, and this measure has failed to ensure that the best academic students attend college, regardless of ability to pay.

Now the minister is suggesting fees be reintroduced, but the grant system be reworked with the moneys saved being put into the grants to 3rd level students, targetted at those who are judged to need it on a means tested basis, (similar to what they have in Australia, and many other european countries) where both the income and the assets of the parents are counted.

Also he is suggesting that those who have to pay be allowed tax credits.

There is a basic common sense i this approach, which seems to escape those who wish to ignore it.
Now i know a lot of people on this board are students. So you are not exactly 'unbiased ' in your opinions.

I see above where it says 'Why should my parents pay etc.'

If they can they should. The country doesnt owe you a 3rd level education. It benifits the country to have a highly educated, skilled workforce, but not narly as much as it benifits the highly skilled, educated worker!

It is the norm in many countrys for the parents to save money for years so that they have money set aside to put their children through college.
It was done for years in this country, until the nineties, and it will become the norm again.
Of course this means sacrifices, but any parent will tell you that having children, and bringing them up means certain sacrifices, but brings its own rewards.

X

paddymee

ANyway... Why the F****K can't ppl just accept a 1% rise in INcome tax and none of these education, health, electricity etc etc cost would need to be increased...

How about I keep that 1% I worked for and deciding how I should spend it.

I'm having my first child next month. I plan to put a few quid away each month for the next 18 years. And if he/she goes to college, well, I will be prepared.

So don't take my money because others aren't prepared.

Rising tax is probably the only promise the government will keep.

Of course it is. Don't ask them to do it then.

When I went to college I worked the buildings in London every summer. I brought home enough money to pay fees, books and survive the rest of the year.

And the people who wonder why its your parents responsibility to pay for your college education. Surely it's more theirs then all the other tax payers?

Also college probably costs more that 20K a year per student. Don't kid yourself that you are paying full college fees.

Paddy

DiscoStu

Originally posted by Xterminator
Have none of you actually listned to Noel Dempsey's plans before ranting?

i now ask you to think about the situation of middle income families who this will affect the most.

i come from the one of those families that the goverment is implying that are screwing the country for everyone, a 2 income houshold. however the concept of disposibel income is quite alien as we are struggling quite badly at the moment. as it stands at the moment we we earn €50 too much to qualify for any kind of grant. that 50 is supposed to pay they way for 2 people through college at the moment. i have two sisters doing their leaving cert in the next two years and another in college. ive paid my way through college for the last 2 years with having to repeat and changing courses. i cant afford to do it anymore. we cant afford to pay the hiked registration fees let alone pay for 4 members of the family to go to college in 2-3 years.

this will not affect high income families at all as the rich poor gap in this country if getting extremly wide. as for lower income families, not trying to sound insulting, the vast majority of them have no interest in attending third level education. this is coming from personal experience.

it all makes perfect sense that not a single ff candidate would make any comment on any issues to do with college in the run up to the election.

Xterminator

Originally posted by DiscoStu


i now ask you to think about the situation of middle income families who this will affect the most.

i come from the one of those families that the goverment is implying that are screwing the country for everyone,

In what wa do they imply middle income familes are screwing the country?
The free college fees was brought in, to even the playing field for the lower paid, and yes the marginal cases who failed to qualify for the old grants.
It has failed to do this, so they propose another solution, that has a chance of working.
Where is the accusation?

Originally posted by DiscoStu
a 2 income houshold. however the concept of disposibel income is quite alien as we are struggling quite badly at the moment. as it stands at the moment we we earn €50 too much to qualify for any kind of grant. that 50 is supposed to pay they way for 2 people through college at the moment.

I agree with you that a set cut off point can be harsh. The old grants were based how income you declared. The self employed, and some large farmers used to qualify for the old grants, by clever accounting practises, while those they employed often did not!

(Example .. Farmers could purchase machiney , and write that off against income, leaving there incomes within the limit )

However your concern, about a cut off point can be addressed with by a sliding scale rather than a fixed cut off point. Also Noel dempsey has announced that the means test will look at assets as well as incomes (Similar to Austrailian System), which should avoid the clever accounting loopholes.

Originally posted by DiscoStu
i have two sisters doing their leaving cert in the next two years and another in college. ive paid my way through college for the last 2 years with having to repeat and changing courses. i cant afford to do it anymore. we cant afford to pay the hiked registration fees let alone pay for 4 members of the family to go to college in 2-3 years.

The new grant would more realistically cover the costs of going to college eg. course, materials, fees etc for those who qualify
They can do this by not paying the fees for those who dont need it, and put the money back into the grants.
IE Allowing more low to middle earners to attend, and finish there courses, (The current drop out rate is far higher for those who struggle to make end meet!)

This is not a difficult concept.

Originally posted by DiscoStu
this will not affect high income families at all as the rich poor gap in this country if getting extremly wide. as for lower income families, not trying to sound insulting, the vast majority of them have no interest in attending third level education. this is coming from personal experience.

Well I'm sure you blanket statement saying that the reason there are so few lower income students in college can be (at least partially) attributed to the fact they lack the ambition is not insulting to anyone!

I'm sure just becuase they just cant afford to go would notact as a de-motivator, nor the fact they compete for the same limited places as those who go to fee paying schools (with the best facilities, and often better teachers), against those who can afford grinds, and can afford to repeat the leaving if nessacary doesnt merit a mention.

X

Ivan

My family is what you would consider a middle income family.

We fail to qualify for the grant by about €1,000 - €2,000. This year my sister started college which increases the income bracket to qualify for the grant but we are still just a little bit short. It annoys me that I have to scrimp and save just to go out once a month, and some of the people in my class look forward to each thursday of hectic drunking thanks to the wad of cash placed in their hands from the grant.

About the rise in fees next year. I've heard this second hand about an interview on the Gerry Ryan show, so take it as you will :

A woman rang up the show to talk to Gerry about the new fee system to be introduced. Both parents work and they earn enough to miss the qualification of the grant by a few thousand. With the new grant system to come in place, they worked it out on the radio that if both parents of the family quit their jobs and took social welfare payments, the fees would be payed and their children would receive a grant, added to that the social welfare they would end up with more money than if they both kept their jobs.

I dont know about you, but I'd personally prefer if people didnt end up quiting their jobs so their kids could get 3rd level education.

Ivan

Lemming

Originally posted by Xterminator

The free college fees was brought in, to even the playing field for the lower paid, and yes the marginal cases who failed to qualify for the old grants.
It has failed to do this, so they propose another solution, that has a chance of working.

They lowered the playing field, but what you seem to be p*ssed about is that in order to lower the playing field, all the elite save even more money in order to help others get onto the pitch.

If they raise fees again, all taht's going to happen is that the rich will continue to go to college, and fewer of ANYONE else will be able to go.

The current grant system has been in effect for years now, and they couldn't get it right. What makes you think that the current government in all its ineptitude has ANY hope of getting a new "uber-grant" system working in such a way that it is fair.

Absolute f*cking b*****cks. The current government couldn't get a wet-dream right.

Also Noel dempsey has announced that the means test will look at assets as well as incomes

So you have a house that's been in the family for a long time and is worth a LOT of money, yet you inherited it .... oh dear ..... sorry, we can't let you in. According to your assets list, you're loaded.

They can do this by not paying the fees for those who dont need it, and put the money back into the grants.

In theory only. How, oh HOW to you determine "those that don't need it". And I want a practical, sensible, legal answer to that question. Not some pie-in-the-sky-rose-tinted-future answer that politicians give.

Well I'm sure you blanket statement saying that the reason there are so few lower income students in college can be (at least partially) attributed to the fact they lack the ambition is not insulting to anyone!

Poorly worded, but you can follow his arguement. Many don't see the need to going to college, since they're looking at a more necessity level, ie. helping family with getting a job, etc, etc. It's a different life-ethos. When I went to school (community school) I could see it all around me. Many just dossed their way through classes, not seeing the relevance in learning this that or the other since they were gonna become apprentices or what-not.

I'm sure just becuase they just cant afford to go would notact as a de-motivator, nor the fact they compete for the same limited places as those who go to fee paying schools (with the best facilities, and often better teachers), against those who can afford grinds, and can afford to repeat the leaving if nessacary doesnt merit a mention.

X, I know people who's parents spent a fortune on them for schooling, and yet still messed up cause they had no desire to work or what-not.

At the end of the day, if you really want to get the results, you will get them, good teachers or no.

And I'm sayign that from having seen both sides of the education fence.

5 years in a community school (1-6th year), and a repeat year in Ashfield college. Only reason I repeated was because I didn't work study first time around. I worked in class, but just didn't study enough.

Chaos-Engine

its all well and good saving for college from day one (your child enters the world) but you just ask what your average 5th and 6th year and their parents thinks of Noel's idea....
And do you actually trust the government to realocate the moneys saved from reintroducing fees. Perhaps and yes probably the grants will increase but I won't be suprised if 50% of the money saved goes to McGreedy.

Another thing. Assessing parents as a means to govern grants is WRONG. Some ppl's parents couldn't give two hoots about their kids once they finish 2nd level. Especially in working class back grounds this in part is why alot of lower-income bracket households don't attend college.

Also. Taking assets into account is wrong... Most parents won't selll their Dublin house to put their children through college. But seen as most houses in Dublin are €200,000 + no one in dublin will qualify under that idea. Coupled with the fact most parents won't sell a fixed asset such as a house to put their kids through college.

I'm one of the lucky ones. My mother values education greatly as she never got a chance at it herself. Instead of letting me rot in a public funded school were I would have been treated like a idiot and never gotten the opportunities due to learning difficulties and teh states lack of support. She remorgaged the house and sent me to the INstitute(talk about pressure). Now If College fees increase their is No hope... I'll just be like she was and never get the opportunity to attend college due to the fees.

I think Noel Dempsey is failing a large number of people in this country. Time to get active anbd stop these mad men from ruining my life and hopes and dreams..... Not to mention everyone elses.

Chaos-Engine

Anyway 1% of the average industrial workers wage (€8 an hour) is a mere €2.80 a week.....

If you put that much aside for your child every working week for 15 years it amounts to only €2100... thats just under half of one term.... Accepting that 1% rise in income tax(It could be just the upper band for equality perposes) would solve many problems.

Or you could go the american road like FF/PD love, were the the divid between rich and poor in uni is HUGE....

paddymee

Anyway 1% of the average industrial workers wage (€8 an hour) is a mere €2.80 a week.....

If you put that much aside for your child every working week for 15 years it amounts to only €2100... thats just under half of one term.... Accepting that 1% rise in income tax(It could be just the upper band for equality perposes) would solve many problems.

Wrong. Assuming you get 5% annually with bonds that would be 3860. And that is the mere 2.80 a week.

I'd imagine that that familly could spare 5 a week that would be 6900. Imagine they saved 10 a week, it would be 13800. The power of compounding interest.

Anyway, I'm not an average industrial worker. I bet your parents earn more than €8.

What makes me laugh about all this is that people with no kids and lower income people who's kids would never be going to college paid most of my college fees. How is that fair?

Or you could go the american road like FF/PD love, were the the divid between rich and poor in uni is HUGE....

You got a report to show the divide is any better in Ireland? If we are going anicdotal I can tell you that I know more people in the US that spent some time in college than I know in Ireland.

And Chaos-Engine

And do you actually trust the government to realocate the moneys saved from reintroducing fees.

I don't trust any government that's why I choose take responsibility for myself.

What makes me laugh here is that most people here are very left and want the government (other tax paying people really) to implement whats in their interest. But then scream bloody murder when the government proves wasteful, untrustworthy or implements something not in their interest.

Paddy