Fianna Fáil

Cork

Regarding the poor state of this country in the 1980's-that was born out of Fianna Fáil's disastrous 1977 general election manifesto, and the rolling stone effect it had on the countries finances

The FG and Labour goverment did add £12 billion onto the national debt during the 1980s.

John Bruton made very little helpfull contributions

The "****** peace process" remark did wonders & did Enda Kennys recent comments about *******.

Civil War politics has ended. Look at FGs vote at the last election.

My overall point is that there is corruption everywhere in Ireland - Blood scandals, house price rip offs, bad planning, shops overcharging.

It is not confined to one section of our community or one political party.

The FG and Labour goverment did add £12 billion onto the national debt during the 1980s.

And more probably.
Although in recent years Fine Gael has drifted away from the right,it could not have succeeded back in the eighties, married to a left of centre party .
Neither could labour for the same reason.
Result : Stagnation with one view in mind, it's either FG? lab or FF in Govt-forget policy or progress.
They came to their senses in 1987.

Civil War politics has ended. Look at FGs vote at the last election.

I disagree with that statement.
The Fianna Fáil core vote has remained basically the same.
It is a cohort which throughout generations votes the same way.
Thats civil war politics.

Mind you during the last election, who could vote for FG or Noonan??
I wouldn't vote for them and that Enda Kenny , I wouldn't be inspired by him either.
mm

Victor

RE: the Bertie Bowl, the Evening Herald ran a front page story about 2 weeks ago and they added up all the money spent already and committments made to help the Stadium proceed: Fees (€19m), State Laboratories (€230m+?), promises to sporting organisations (€100m+). It all added up to something like €490m before a sod is turned. On a stadium that was to cost less than €300 finished.

Who delivered it? CJH's government introduced agreements with the Unions + albert saw what was happening in the Far East.

WTF? To paraphrase "It was demographics, stupid!"

Originally posted by Cork
Albert won lost an election because the media treated him badly.

Run that by me again!

Originally posted by Cork
The FG and Labour goverment did add £12 billion onto the national debt during the 1980s.

On the back of a giveaway budget by Haughey (he reduced car tax to £5/year) .... and in economic circumstances that were perpetuated by his cronies and their illegal "banks".

Lennoxschips

I'm for the labour party mainly because they were born out of the workers' unions and not based upon civil war politics. FF and FG are two of a kind, if you ask me... John Bruton is the luckiest man in Ireland, he became leader of the country without winning an election. Dick Spring was the man running the country and getting 9bn pounds off the EU for us.

Cork

On the back of a giveaway budget by Haughey (he reduced car tax to £5/year) .... and in economic circumstances that were perpetuated by his cronies and their illegal "banks".

Did a FG td not have an ansbacker account?
At least CJH did not add 12billion onto the national debt.

I'm for the labour party

Don't mention Democratic Left.

Dick Spring was the man running the country

Is he not involved with Fexco now?
After his stint with Eircom?

This FF/FG/Labour thing is a little boring.

They are bad eggs in every community in Ireland.
They are in every party. No section of our community is free from corruption. I think that no political party in Ireland are free to cast the first stone. Niether are the media. They hounded Albert. A man who talked to Hume & Adams when he was criticised like mad for doing so.

But people have very short memories. Are people prepared to shut down their SSIA accounts for the good of the country? Are they prepared to pay higher taxes for a better health system?

Tax monies over the past number of years were into health, education, pensions & roads. What would ye have not spend the money on.

Please avoid implying they are not bad apples in every party. If you stink your head in the sand. You'll believe it.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
Did a FG td not have an ansbacker account?
At least CJH did not add 12billion onto the national debt.

Yes I believe one did.

Originally posted by Cork
They are bad eggs in every community in Ireland. They are in every party. No section of our community is free from corruption. I think that no political party in Ireland are free to cast the first stone.

Yes there are, but there appears to be a preponderance of them in and/or supporting FF.

Originally posted by Cork
If you stink your head in the sand.

WTF? :rolleyes: Are you sleep ddeprived?

Meh

Originally posted by Victor
RE: the Bertie Bowl, the Evening Herald ran a front page story about 2 weeks ago and they added up all the money spent already and committments made to help the Stadium proceed: Fees (€19m), State Laboratories (€230m+?), promises to sporting organisations (€100m+). It all added up to something like €490m before a sod is turned.

As far as I know (open to correction here), the State laboratories were due to be moved anyway because the facilities at Abbotstown were inadequate...Still, the stadium project was a stupendous waste of money, no matter what the exact figures are. People will remember Bertie for it all right, but not for the reasons he'd like...

Cork

Yes there are, but there appears to be a preponderance of them in and/or supporting FF.

What do you base this on?

That a number of former members of FF are before tribunerals. There will probably be members of many partys before such tribunerals before they are finished.

What you seem to be doing is pre-judging the outcomes of these tribunerals. God, only knows - what was happening and the extent it happened.

You are also putting a slur on the Irish electorate which is OTT.

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
What do you base this on? That a number of former members of FF are before tribunerals. There will probably be members of many partys before such tribunerals before they are finished.

No I am basing my comments on the draft report from the Flood Tribual.

Originally posted by Cork
You are also putting a slur on the Irish electorate which is OTT.

No, if I am slurring anyone it is the parties involved in brown envelopes (and brown paper bags) that have a substantial overlap with FF politicians, party workers, party members, hangers-on, financial and other donors and the like. While no doubt the larger part of FF is interested in honest politics, the majority of people involved in dishonest politics appear to be associated with FF.

I passed no comment about FF voters or the electorate in general.
.

Cork

I passed no comment about FF voters or the electorate in general.

There are rotten apples in every barrel. We need to look at corruption across every spectrum of soceity and stamp it out.

Corruption is not confined to one political party, age, social class or gender.

By singling out one political party - you are ignoring what went on in other partys.

eg. the ptentail libility of the state if it is shown that the 3nd mobile phone licence was awarded incorrectly.

There is no scale of varying standards of corruption. There is no acceptable limit of corruption.

We need to have a zero tolerance atitude towards it. No metter - where it goes on, It needs to be stamped out.

eg. the ptentail libility of the state if it is shown that the 3nd mobile phone licence was awarded incorrectly.

If Digifones competitors in the 2nd mobile phone licence application successfully sue, there will be a precedent set implying further very costly suits in areas such as planning, radio licences etc.

Blame in both the two largest parties there.
I think Victor is right in saying there has been shown so far to be a larger preponderence of corruption in the Fianna Fáil camp.
But then they are the largest party and therefore statistically should have the largest proportion of bad apples.
No offence meant Cork;)
mm

Cork

I agree with you. I think corruption in this country is widespread. FF were alwlays the party with people with no property. I think what went on - there is no excuse for. I think that FF needs to get back to basics. They are a lot of many good people in FF - but I think that we need to have a zero tolerace atitude to corruption in this country. Corruption has not gone away you know.

spongebob

.......not a syndicate that is devoted to corrupting everything.

as politics is 'the art of the possible', fixes will occur that may be seen as corrupt on a simplistic level but which are actually pragmatic more than anything else. They were simply the best solution possible.

The third mobile licence was awarded by a civil servant Cork, not a politician.

CJH added 6Billion to the national debt in one year, and in so doing doubled it. 1981/2


M

mike65

Originally posted by Meh
As far as I know (open to correction here), the State laboratories were due to be moved anyway because the facilities at Abbotstown were inadequate...

Thats correct.

Mike.

Cork

Originally posted by Muck
[B

The third mobile licence was awarded by a civil servant Cork, not a politician.

CJH added 6Billion to the national debt in one year, and in so doing doubled it. 1981/2


M [/B]

Fg made a mess of our economy in the 1980s. They doubled the national debt in the period from 1982 to 1987. It went from 12 billion to 24 billion. Tousands left the country to find work. Has FG taken responsibility for thyis?


Your thing on CJHis absurd. There were 3 elections in this period. Where did you get this figure? Hopefully not from the back of a Corn Flake box.

The third mobile licence was awarded by a civil servant Cork, not a politician.

Another example of responsibility. Michael Lowry/ Denis O Brien connections? ...................never.

I admit there is corruption in public life and institutional corruption in Ireland.

But I think some may still think corruption is confined to some sectors.

FF are unworthy and other political partys should be in Surf ads.

I think - facts do not back this up and like it or not - we'll just have to face up to it.

What ever did happen to the Telenor cheque?

Shazbat

Fianna Fail corruption is akin to a pyramid. It goes all the way down to the bottom in the construction industry (to name but one example) from land developers bribing officials to rezone land to lower down in the pile where architectural and engineering companies are all involved in backhanders and fixing tenders.

There is a major croneyism element in FF and their 'generous' supporters. Why does FF get so many large donations from individuals and companies? There is no such thing as a free lunch.

These individuals and companies with their 'donations' are giving FF money in the hope that they will get something back. You scratch my back etc etc.

I think that large donations would have stopped a long time ago if these donors got nothing in return. It would be naive to think that businessmen give away large sums of money for no personal gain. Businessmen are the greediest money grabbing people (and shrewdest) that you will come across.

It would be interesting to see if these donors donate as much money to charity as they do to political parties (mainly FF). If they did then I would believe that they want nothing in return from FF.

spongebob

Let me restate....not editing the incorrect post.

Jack Lynch and CJH between them increased the national debt by 150% in 4 years 1977-1981 and thats Official

The previous coalition in 1973-1977 had Doubled it.

What was that about the third licence again Cork?


M

Cork

I really don't care for criticisim of either Jack Lynch or Eamonn Dev. Did you ever hear of the Blueshirts in FG history - bunchs of grown men running around in uniform making silly salutes.

But - It is nice of see FG taking political coperate donatios again.

I really admire when they do something on "principle" and then they welch on it.

The previous coalition in 1973-1977 had Doubled it.

Don't fool yourself - FG/Lab added 12 bbillion onto the national debt in less than 5 years.

If there was a crime of economic mis management of the country - they would get a life sentence.

Why does FF get so many large donations from individuals and companies?

Every party takes donations
Biggest party - Biggest Mandate

These individuals and companies with their 'donations' are giving FF money in the hope that they will get something back. You scratch my back etc etc.

would you prefer state funding of political partys?

Fianna Fail corruption is akin to a pyramid

This is a slur. What went of in FG? Why are they back taking political coperate donations? What do you know of Democratic left or Sinn Fein?

spongebob

as is widely known the Blueshirts were there to defend big farmers from Dev(alera) and his Broy Harriers....who were a bunch of gangsters pretending to be revenue special agents.

Then they used to dress up nicely for mass on a Sunday, blue shirts are fairly invisible at night you see.

I personally think that you may be one of those Workers Party supporters the way you go on. Why did you not leave the bit with the fundraising arm and go over to dem left that time?

Do tell us.

M

Victor

Originally posted by Cork
would you prefer state funding of political partys?

Yes. Brian, is that you?

Shazbat

Originally posted by Cork
[B.... What do you know of Democratic left or Sinn Fein? [/B]

Ehhh? Why did u ask me that?

spongebob

thats why i concluded he is most likely a workers party remnant ....they are obsessive about all those parties that split off from them.

Cork

defend big farmers

FG are still made up largely by big farmers that is why they are such a small party in Dublin.

Is not John Bruton the biggest farmer in Meath?

Democratic left or Sinn Fein?/QUOTE]

I just wanted to know - how well informed you were about the activities of other political partys?

I think that a lot of the Flood report has been hyped up. The facts in the report are disturbing. But what went on – is no different to what is happening throughout our country. Shop keeers, doctors, accountants and others seem to have increased their prices greatly since the introduction of the euro.

Yet – to read the papers – you’d believe that corruption begun and ended with the Flood Report.

I think Ray Burke introduced competition in the Radio & TV market for RTE. It seems absurd that they were only 2 radio stations in the country prior to Ray Burke & most of the country had 2 TV stations. He

There is institutional corruption in Ireland. 300,000 non resident accounts – with banks facilitating this.

Who will be brought to Justice over the Linsday tribuneral? What media coverage did it get? People are responsible for this – yet why has no body being charged?

I think, we as a county need to grow up & look at a pretty ugly picture of widespread corruption thru out our country. Maybe – ye might feel good at pointing at Burke – but don’t paint him as Mr. Corrupt. The country in full of them.

Does anybody know what % of tax returns are audited? It goes on & on.

spongebob

Cork uttered....

ye might feel good at pointing at Burke – but don’t paint him as Mr. Corrupt.

If this is your starting premise to prove the country is terminally corrupt Cork then I am not surporsed that the rest of your argument kinda leps around like a greyhound on hot coals.

Burke is VERY corrupt and thats OFFICIAL.

How many votes did the workers party get in the last election????

M

Cork

Maybe – ye might feel good at pointing at Burke – but don’t paint him as Mr. Corrupt. The country in full of them.

You can quote me - but not out of context.

I have no time for Mr. Burke or any corruption.

How many votes did the workers party get in the last election????

I have no time either for for the Workers Party or FG or DL or Labour.

I think - that as my views are not coloured my a political party - You can't see where I am coming from.

My views are just from a position of common sense. But - If you want to know - how I voted in the last election - I will tell you.

I voted for the victors and not the vanquished.

seamus

Originally posted by Cork

I have no time either for for the Workers Party or FG or DL or Labour.

I think - that as my views are not coloured my a political party - You can't see where I am coming from.

That says it all really doesn't it? Plus those two statements directly contradict eachother.

Anyway, Ireland has big problem with politicians that needs overcoming. The problem starts back from when Fianna Fáil ran the country, and up as late as the 80's, people had their own poverty and welfare to look after, so politicians were allowed get away with pretty much anything. Now we're mostly quite wealthy, and so the people are actually beginning to take an interest in how the politician's are running the country, as opposed to "Sure didn't FF save us from the British, and isn't Bertie a great man? I trust them to do a good job." I'm not attacking FF directly here, almost all politicians are guilty of this - they only do what they see as necessary to guarantee their re-election. They only look 5 years ahead, to do the minimum amount necessary to keep themselves in a cushty job.

Take Charlie for example. The last 2 years, he makes a balls of the budget, giving away far too much, and not planning ahead in the slightest. What do we have now? He's lied to us, but he's back in power. And all politicians are guilty of this. They make shory term appeasments, which make people happy in the short term.

They estimated a 7-year boom. And what do we have to show for it? High prices and traffic. Our infrastructure is sh1t. You find better in some 3rd world countries. Homelessness and poverty will begin to rise again, as people cannot afford some basic necessities anymore. The system is so tied up in red tape and beaurocracy(sp?), that nothing worthwhile gets done.

Take Victor's example. €490m euro wasted on nothing What was the fúcking problem? Buy some land. Rezone it. Pay an architect to design a huge stadium. Build it. Simple. How the hell did they manage to waste so much money just hmming and hawing over it?

2 weeks ago, Bertie and co., brought in a pay rise for themselves of between €5000 and €8000!! They haven't even begun work yet, there are huge warnings about recession and unemployment, and these cúnts tack themselves on a third of someone's salary. For nothing!!! :mad:

I'm gonna have to stop before I keep ranting, but needless to say, things have to change, and there has to be an election within the year........

spongebob

in th ehigh tax 80's the idea of expenses took hold....this is a major problem with Civil servants to this day.

they won't do anything that does not involve an expenses claim.

nobody will altruistically act in the common interest unless they get expenses for showing up.

the local authority staff have to be ordered to sepnd a day a week in the office, othewise they are cout claiming mileage. Easier to pick up brown paper bags too.

the whole concept of the public good is tied up with expenses claims.

and then theres the dead loss legal system which is a parasitic being tying up 1000's of people with their claims and actions.....totally non productive.

don't blame the politicians, blame the electorate.

M

Cork

The last 2 years, he makes a balls of the budget, giving away far too much, and not planning ahead in the slightest.

How can you say this? What tax cuts should he not have given? Should be abolish the SSIAs?

Should he have known about Septemtember11th?

Better Still - He should have known about the fall in world stock markets?

He reformed our tax system, reformed our pensions system and introduced a savings scheme.

What did FG ever do?

They introduced the DIRT Tax.

This led to many people opening up bogus accounts.

Now the revenue is after them.

Yet
How much did the Banks write off - Garrett Fitzgeralds loans?

gandalf

and Charlies Loans.

How about this Cork maybe we should have something more than a country in chaos to show for the years of prosperity we had. With the right management they could have sorted out the health service instead they didn't tackle the problems they just flushed money down the toilet.

As for your DIRT tax quote "They introduced the DIRT Tax. This led to many people opening up bogus accounts." I mean come on FG made people evade tax and break the law please Cork stop grasping at straws.

Gandalf.

Cork

With the right management they could have sorted out the health service instead they didn't tackle the problems they just flushed money down the toilet.

There has never being more money being put into the Health System.

If it was up to me - I'd abolish all but 3 or 4 health boards.

But - when even admin jobs are cut - war breaks out.

FG made people evade tax and break the law

They should have police legalislation - they introduced.

Why didn't they?

Again, nobody is held responsible.


What ministers are held responsible over the Linsday Tribuneral?

Again - nobody is to blame.