Is the Power Sharing executive dead?

Typedef

With the events that transpired on Friday, are the people of these Islands to coin a Blairism facing an abyss a return to the bad old days of recrimination and violence?

Without being partisan, I believe that the Police Service of Northern Ireland has made a monumental mistake and has played right into the hands of the Anti-Agreement Unionists and lets not forget the Anti-Agreement Republicans, by publicly arresting high ranking members of Sinn Fein from the Stormont building itself.

Clearly the timing of such a move and the publicity around it has envigorated the stance of the Ulster Unionists Mr Donaldson and Mr Burnside, and for what? I realise it is easy to take a partisan side and decry some faceless enemy as some monsterous destructor.

Yes it's easy to get one sided about these things, however arguably the move by the Police Service of Norhtern Ireland has given the Anti-Agreement Unionists a trump card by which to force David Trimble to ostracise Sinn Fein from the power sharing executive. My gripe is that when I voted for the Good Firday Agreement I must have missed the small print that said if the Ulster Unionists were not happy with how the Republicans were performing the Ulster Unionists reserved the right to collapse the executive. Yes I realise that some Unionists feel frustrated, however the cynic in me says that this move is yet another reason to exclude nationalists from governance. In my view majority rule is not representative democracy, but majority unilateralism and with two such intractable ideologies pervailent in Northern Ireland I believe it is extremely dangerous to collapse the Power Sharing Executive when the only alternative is a return to Direct Rule, as Direct Rule is totally unacceptable to fourty five percent of the North's population and if such a scenario were to take place you would have marginalisation and resentment.

In my view action taken to exclude Sinn Fein is counter productive, especially in lieu of the fact that the IRA has decomissoned weapons in this process, thus proving that negotiating and democracy can work to resolve the seemingly intractable grievances in the North of Ireland. Also the dubbing of Sinn Fein and the IRA as the same organisation is in my opinion an easy way to simply negate the views represented by Sinn Fein, it is a party with an electoral mandate and there is an agreement between the various communities in Britain and Ireland to make this agreement work.

There is a thing called due process, and for the Ulster Unionists to collapse the Northern executive by excluding Sinn Fein or by forcing the SDLP to leave because the UUP is attempting to collapse the executive because of still unproven and I emphasise that it is simply allegation and inuendo surrounding the arrests at Stormont is simply to capitalise on a situation created by the PSNI that considering the timing of the move, is highly political and is bringing the people's of Britain and Ireland closer to the bad old days of conflict then we have been for nearly ten years.

Yes I accept the UUP has issues about IRA activity, but in my view disengaging from the process of power sharing is not the answer, only inclusion and reconcillation can be the answer.

Note:

I'm not saying the people arrested were guilty of the crime they were accused of, that is not the subject of this thread as it invariably leads to people of a muppet genre calling people murders, or question the moral fibre of other posters, please before this thread even starts, take the personal recrimination to Personal Messages, we are all allegedly grown ups, so lets not degenerate into idocy and instead lets have a reasoned discussion.

mike65

Its a bit soon to know where the arrests will take NI, but the assembly seems doomed anyway, the anti-agreement element are in control of the UUP.

Mike.

dathi1

Yes its smells like an Exit game at the behest of the UUP's electoral problems in May by the Securecrats. Better to Exit with the finger pointing at the Provisionals than focusing on the ongoing Loyalist feud and UDA violence. I mean with a background of increasing Loyalist violence we're in a situation apparently "ongoing since July" where some guy inside stormont "apparently" has had access to files on Blair and Reid?? so fffnn what? We've had relative peace for 5 yrs. MI5 have files on everybody! or are they a legitimate terror group its enough to save Trimble + Co ..but the nay sayers will have their day.

mike65

One senior member Dennis Donaldson had been charged,
5 charges in fact, including possion of information likely to be of use to terrorists. Why the authoritys took so long to react is another matter as a "spy" was known some time back it seems.

The provos have been active again lately with the shooting of a bus driver and an attack in south Armagh (I think).

Mike.

Typedef

If the man is guilty then yes something should have been done, I don't deny that, what I do think is that in the interests of peace and of the devolved government in Northern Ireland that Sinn Fein should have simply been told to get rid of the man in question. A big media event in my opinion has just put unneeded strain onto an already bleak situation.

I head a rumour that Ronnie Flanagan was well aware of the alleged activity in question, this is not fact but if I work off of the assumption the PSNI has know for quite some time about the alleged activities of the man in question, then why has it picked this critical juncture to act?

Aren't police forces supposed to be non partisan? Ok if the guy did wrong he should have been removed, it is simply the method and critically the timing of the PSNI that I am casting doubt on, it would in my opinion have served the peace process to have simply had a PSNI representative tell Sinn Fein to remove the man from Stormont or the PSNI would. I accept that is not how policing works in a normal society, however Northern Ireland is not a normal society just yet and the PSNI could be seen to be acting to strengthen the hand of Anti Agreement Unionists, which is not going to make it attractive to average Joe Nationalist(x) to join.

However my biggest fear about what has transpired on Friday is that it could in the current environment of the Ulster Unionist Party be a show stopper for the Northern Executive, which in my view is a retrograde step back to the bad old days of entrenched communities fighting it out in the North.

This toing and froing in Northern Ireland has to stop, where the Unionists call for more moves from the IRA towards non existance, Republicans saying that will happen only when the British Army withdraws from places like South Armagh, the British Government saying withdrawal from South Armagh will only take place when the security situation improves and the Irish government staying as silent as possible until crunch times up North when it studiously falls in behind Nationalist opinion in true Machiavellian style. It's a vicious circle of recrimination that is slowley eating away at peace in Northern Ireland and eating away at the tentative steps towards normalisation of the macro Anglo-Irish relationship.

Shazbat

I think (unfortunately) that the unionists are going to pull it down, aided by the hype and accusations being bandied around after the PSNIs high profile raid of sinn fein's offices.

I think that the PSNI have purposefully helped the unionists cause by the controversy stirred up over the raids The cases haven't gone to court, and yet people are going on as if the people who have been charged have been found guilty.

The recent raids are similar to what went on in Kerry during the general election. The motive in both raids, (as shown by the timing) was to cause sinn fein to lose support (in kerry) and to lose power (up north).

The unionists are playing a dangerous game as I fell that some elements in republicanism (ie IRA splinter groups might find their ranks swelling) might start questioning their views on the current ceasefire if they feel that sinn fein are getting nowhere using peaceful means. Sinn fein have so far managed to keep the the vast majority of the republican movement united in their attempts at a peaceful resolution to the troubles. But there are/and have been paramilitaries who have been sceptical about the GFA and the power sharing arrangement, and (IMO) if it fails I think sinn fein will have a tough time trying to keep them in check.

In a nutshell, the unionists were happy with the way things were, they don't want to change as they feel they will lose power, so they are going to do their damnedest to wreck the peace process and to hell with the consequences.

daveirl

This post has been deleted.

Johnny_the_fox

[IMO]
I think it time for the people, to say what they want...

Not the UUP and a group of 300 Unionists that meet up every 3 months to decide the North's future…
This is the party, which is running the North and wont let it work because over some issues over Policing and the Executive in general…not IRA handing over weapons

I say its over Policing issues because this month Sinn Fein met Tony Blair and are close to joining the Policing Board.... another step in the GFA...

People talk about sharing the executive with terrorists:
An Example: Rev McCrea shared a stand with a terrorist Billy Wright (a terrorist).
Am from the same area as Rev McCrea, as I can say as a Nationalist/Republican (Select anyone)
Local Councilor Rev McCrea is one of the best... he deals with both Catholic and Protestant needs....but when I see him on TV talking sh*te about sharing an executive with terrorists all I can do is laugh.

The Executive is working, SDLP and Sinn Fein, have power in the main areas (Health and Education) and are exceeding...

Some Unionist can't face the fact that the Catholics are now equal and have equal power in the places where it matters.

[/IMO]

PH01

I think there is more to it than we care to let on. And the arrest on Friday is huge issue mainly for Sinn Fein.
We all know that the lines between Sinn Fein and the IRA are direct be it slightly blured. Nobody can say for certain where the militant wing of SF starts or where the political wing of the IRA begins? No one in either Sinn Fien or the IRA can answer this question.
But if SF are to going to continue in this process, they're going to have to detach themselves from the IRA completely. And this separation has to be clear.

dathi1

But if SF are to going to continue in this process, they're going to have to detach themselves from the IRA completely. And this separation has to be clear.

and the same goes for British Government and MI5.
<speculation>
I wonder how long Bertie knew about this? I'm sure Reid had to tip him off that the show raid on stormont was imminent. The timing would be perfect...since he's under scrutiny in the Dail this week over Burke etc this would take the spotlight off Flood. and sein Fein are about to launch a No2Nice blitz this week. FF have shown in the recent past as with the Ferris election campaign in Kerry that they're are not beyond using the forces of law by proxy or otherwise to try and change things.</speculation>

By the way did yez see the article on the Mc Kevit Real IRA trial in yesterdays Observer(read here) apparently the Irish and British Governments have comes to terms on sentencing him to 2 yrs only for RIRA membership to cover up MI5 involvement Irish state affairs. No wonder Bertie kept the Dublin and Monaghan bombings preliminary investigation behind closed doors.

PH01

Originally posted by dathi1
and the same goes for British Government and MI5.

So a sovereign government should sever their links with their military?!

mike65

quote:

Originally posted by dathi1
and the same goes for British Government and MI5.



Some people can't or won't spot the difference between a legitimate democratic government and Provos.

Mike.

dathi1

So a sovereign government should sever their links with their military?!

I dunno.......ask the relatives of the Dublin / Monaghan bombings the largest atrocity on this island during the troubles what they think about MI5 and its links or lack there of.. with the British Government..There again ask the relatives of the Omagh Bombing about MI5 and how legitimate it is re the story in the Observer above.....AND then ask yourself if the British Secret Service / Intelligence service really is answerable to the British government. its really an independent Para military system answerable to no one but itself. (sounds familiar)

Raskolnikov

Originally posted by daveirl
Well I don't think the raids were done as tactfully as they could of been, but if they turn up evidence they I fully believe they were justified.

Some of the posters seem to think that its OK for the IRA to continue 'millitary intelligence' etc, and Sinn Féin to remain in the executive. I don't think it is unreasonable for Trimble et al., to want out if Sinn Féin are continuing paramilitary activities.

I'm sure everyone knows my opinion on SF at this point though.

So to sum up: If they were up to no good they it was completely justified and the UUP would be completely justified in pulling out of the executive.

It's not as easy as that. As long as there are British troops and Loyalist paramilitaries in N. Ireland, the IRA will never disarm. I wouldn't expect them to disband either. You must remember that for decades that Catholics were deprived of civil rights, often disenfranchised etc. The old feelings of suspicion and hatred are still running through many of the people towards a British government which they can't trust. You might not agree with SF ideals but you should at least try to understand there point of view.

As for the 'Agreement' itself? I'm tired of seeing the anti-agreement (and some allegedly pro-agreement) Unionists constantly holding the agreement (which was agreed upon by the vast majority of N. Ireland people) to ransom. It amounts to little more than blackmail in my view.

PH01

Originally posted by dathi1
I dunno.......ask the relatives of the Dublin / Monaghan bombings the largest atrocity on this island during the troubles what they think about MI5 and its links or lack there of.. with the British Government..There again ask the relatives of the Omagh Bombing about MI5 and how legitimate it is re the story in the Observer above.....AND then ask yourself if the British Secret Service / Intelligence service really is answerable to the British government. its really an independent Para military system answerable to no one but itself. (sounds familiar)

Whether there are links or not between the British Government\Mi5 and the loyalist terrorists involvement with the Dublin\Monaghan bombing is a matter for the British and Irish authorities. I don't see how this can be linked to justify the IRA using SF for intelligents gathering. Yes, if the British Government\Mi5 was involved in some way in providing information to terrorists then that is wrong. But that doesn't mean that the IRA should be forgiven their intelligence gathering activities when they're suppose to be on ceasefire.
The IRA has a lot of questions to answer. If they are committed to the peace process then why all this paramilitary activity? They have to realise that they can not continue be active when their political wing are trying to instill trust with their pro-agreement partners. IRA decommissioning was a great step forward, but they have taken a few steps back of late.
This is no to say that the fault is all on the side of the IRA, it isn't. The UUP and the so called Democratic Unionist Party have questions to answer. Like how commited are they to power sharing? They must realise that they can't go back to the bad old days.
Is the Power Sharing Exec. dead? Yip it is boss. But it is probably being killed off for the wrong reasons.

Typedef

In my view if devolved government can not be made to work then total partition of the two communities is the only answer, simply because it is as wrong to ask the Nationalist community of Northern Ireland to live in the Union (contrary to their wishes) as it is wrong to ask the Unionists of Northern Ireland to live in the Republic of Ireland. So simply stated I believe a revised border is the only real answer, because when I hear politicains talking about "another generation" before power sharing governance will be contemplated again I get a chill to think that, that is exactly the sort of rhetoric that the collapse of the Sunningdale agreement instigated.

In my view the border comission in the 1920s made a huge mistake by including such massive Nationalist areas into the Northern State and had the route of absolute partition (no matter how unpalletable to some that prospect would have been) taken place as opposed to creating an "economicaly viable State" (which is far from economically viable), then the long and protracted violence between the two communities in Northern Ireland would have been avoided.

Thus since Direct Rule is unacceptable to the Nationalists and Devolved Powersharing Governance has become unacceptable to Unionists and the two positions are utterly intractable added to which the Devolved Government is supposed to be a major part of a peace deal, implying that without such government the peace deal is at an end, I would propose that instead of attempting to meld to utterly opposed ideologies into government of the one State, that, the State in question (ie) Northern Ireland is simply split between the two governments.

So what now for Northern Ireland, joint authority between Dublin and London, with a "fudge" on where elected representatives eventually sit or repartition of the six counties along the lines of competing ideologies?

In the abscence of devolved government, I don't see a viable alternative, but if someone else does, I'd love to hear it.

Shazbat

Originally posted by PH01
If they are committed to the peace process then why all this paramilitary activity?

Alledged paramilitary activity.

Don't jump the gun, did you ever hear 'innocent until proven guilty'?

If one of sinn feins workers is found guilty of intelligence gathering*, then he should be punished. But should the whole of the nationalist/catholic population of the north be punished because of this?

*anyway, I thought that spying was all part of the game of politics, the only crime is getting caught. Who doesn't spy? Its naive to think it ok for some to spy and not for others?

It is this side of the community who will be punished the most, as the unionists will have things back to the way they liked them, being ruled by britain, with no dirty republicans telling them what to do and they will keep their sectarian police force.

Oh happy day. The unionists are paving the way for more killings and bombings in the future. No doubt some people might say that sinn fein paved the way by alledgedly spying, but its quite clear that the unionists were waiting for an excuse to wreck the peace process and if it wasn't this then it would have been something else. You can't win against a mindset like that.

The unionists have proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that they do not want change, or to ever share power with nationalists. And it looks increasingly likely that the unionist bigots will just get their way.

PH01

Originally posted by Shazbat
Alledged paramilitary activity.

Don't jump the gun, did you ever hear 'innocent until proven guilty'?

If one of sinn feins workers is found guilty of intelligence gathering*, then he should be punished. But should the whole of the nationalist/catholic population of the north be punished because of this?

*anyway, I thought that spying was all part of the game of politics, the only crime is getting caught. Who doesn't spy? Its naive to think it ok for some to spy and not for others?

Whoh there horsey! Spying a politics!? Don't think so. (But is intelligence part of politics? )

So what would you call a list of names and address of prison officers in the hands of the IRA (allegedly)? That's like saying it was OK for the RUC Special Branch to pass on to the loyalist death squads the names and addresses of the suspected republican militants?

Shazbat

Originally posted by PH01
Whoh there horsey! Spying a politics!? Don't think so. (But is intelligence part of politics? )

Oops I meant to say 'intelligence gathering'

So what would you call a list of names and address of prison officers in the hands of the IRA (allegedly)? That's like saying it was OK for the RUC Special Branch to pass on to the loyalist death squads the names and addresses of the suspected republican militants? [/QUOTE]

Its not ok in my view, but of course (allegedly) it goes on, on both sides.

Brian Bennette

I've seen many post by certain boardsie members just suddenly deleted.

It seems to me that this isn't a boardsie website and it should be renamed boards unitedkingdom.

There are too many Pro-British people here trying to force their thoughts and policitcal ideas down people throats.

Ireland is not a monarchy and the Queen has no representatives here, so why are so many Pro-English controling this so called IRISH board?

People in Ireland have a voice and a vote and they are allowed to express.

Kimseems to be getting the most of it.
I've seen his comments on the Ferris-Kerry deleted thread and the BBC panorama RUC threrad.

I do not think these were spam as he ahd posted clear and viable comments on each new post.

If any one is being spammy
it's the borads ie British-moderators.

dathi1

Dont know about the mods being pro british...but one I know can get a bee in his bonnet if you express a whim of Irish nationalisim
Na..Brian its just the nature of the country we live in..If you're for I'm against etc.... would'nt have it any other way.

PH01

Was Brian Bennette banned? And if so, why?

gandalf

Probably PH because he/she is the same user from Galway that has been banned on multiple occasions this week.

Gandalf.

Shinji

I'm not sure the executive can be pulled back from the brink right now without such severe concessions to the Unionists as to make the whole thing farcical. Bizarrely, the single best thing that could happen for nationalists in the North is probably a resumption of direct rule from Westminster followed by a period of licking wounds and laying the groundwork for a new assembly.

It'll be a bitter pill to swallow, though. This is a victory for the anti-agreement Unionists, and that is terribly unfortunate. However, realistically, Sinn Fein brought this upon themselves; by continuing IRA intelligence operations like this, they effectively handed the anti-agreement side a loaded gun and drew a nice big target marker on their own foreheads

Hobbes

I'd accept the unionists resignations only because they wouldn't do it. The mere thought that SF would be left in power is enough to make them get all worked up.

Them or us isn't going to cut it.

mike65

There seems to be alot of sceptism that the provos are up to anything these days, except "community worK", but in Derry a bus driver was shot in the legs recently, why?
becasue his brother-in-law who worked as a nightclub bouncer got the better of a couple of IRA vollenteers
a while back, the bouncer was exiled...thats small beer compared to Enniskillen et al, but the terrorist thug mentality seems as strong as ever.

Mike.

Marie FRANCE

The Northen Ireland Police and British Army are turing a blind eye to shootings, bombings and terror by Anti-Agreement Loyalist Networks. Northern Ireland's 1995 peace process and 1998 peace accord suffered strain on another front as police said gunmen from two rival Protestant gangs, the Ulster Defense Association and Loyalist Volunteer Force, resumed a monthlong feud over the profits from drugs trafficking.

Loyist gunmen and bombers have continued to terrorise locals, a gunman killed a 41-year-old man outside his south Belfast home. Hours later a gunman on a motorcycle shot a 19-year-old in the head but didn't kill him. No group claimed responsibility and the police are doing very little to stop this wave of Loyalist anti-Agreement Violence.


Its now due time that the Police carry out similar raids on Loyalist and Prodestant offices

Shazbat

Originally posted by mike65
There seems to be alot of sceptism that the provos are up to anything these days, except "community worK", but in Derry a bus driver was shot in the legs recently, why?
becasue his brother-in-law who worked as a nightclub bouncer got the better of a couple of IRA vollenteers
a while back, the bouncer was exiled...thats small beer compared to Enniskillen et al, but the terrorist thug mentality seems as strong as ever.

Mike.

Is scepticism enough of a reason to pull down the peace process?

Do you really believe that the IRA would shoot the brother in law of somebody who beat up a volunteer? Thats nothing more than idle (libelous) gossip. You are demeaning yourself by repeating it, and demeaning the people who read this thread by expecting them to believe it.

When you mention enniskillen I really hope you aren't dredging up the bombing that happened there years ago, because if you are you are just going to get a catalogue of who did what to whom and people trying to demonise both partis in the conflict, which is completely futile. Try and see the good that is happening now and stop focusing on past events and gossip, which will achieve nothing.

Marie FRANCE

There has been a huge loyalist feud in Belfast with many shootings of innocent people , the Northen Ireland Police have even been attacked by a hail of bullets and pipebombs.

But the Police have turned a blind eye to the violence.


One would wonder who really controls the Northern Ireland Police force, and are the police service working only for Unionism?

Clintons Cat

thats a view echoed by the Guardian,
For years the security services have leaked sensitive information to loyalist paramilitaries,including the movements of sienfien councillors.

the security services have been caught bugging sien fien in the past and back in june pro loyalist agents walked into the highest security information gathering resourse and got away with highly classified doccuments compromsing informers and their handlers.
Did this cause the process to colapse?As far as i recall no mention of this risking derailing the peace process,it is a am afraid to say one rule for one and another for everyone else.

Castlereagh

Murphys

Many people here are totally lost,
Are there a load of English RUC police running this community or something?