If No to Nice then what?

Paulg · 07-10-2002 9:13am #1

All the NO voters are saying we should vote NO to Nice cos its a bad treaty, so what would they like to see in the treaty that would be a workable alternative...

PH01 · 07-10-2002 9:34am

A workable alternative?
Here's what the 'No' side propose to do.

1. Take Ireland out of the EU.
2. Shut the borders.
3. Introduce a policy of self-sufficiency - i.e no more bananas?
4. Increase the taxes on multi-nationals by 500%
5. Make mass compulsory and make the Roman Catholic church the offical religion of the State.
6. No foreign media allowed - i.e. no foreign newspapers, TV or Internet.
7. No foreigners allowed - You have to be white, Catholic and a holder of an Irish passport to be allowed to stay in Ireland.

...there more I'm sure...

Cork · 07-10-2002 10:13am

I may have escaped you that we said no before by democratic vote.

Nothing happened. Things continued as normal.

If we say no again. Nothing will change. Life will continue.

dathi1 · 07-10-2002 10:34am

4. Increase the taxes on multi-nationals by 500%

Don't worry our new German masters in Brussels will definitely see to this under Nice at the behest of the Brits new court action on our special low company tax rate in Dec.

Irish company tax rate Before Nice 12%
with Nice ratified vee dont caare vat yu think.: 500%

Jobs go east

Cheap Labour goes west NO2Nice

Ruari Quinn on Nice:

Paulg · 07-10-2002 10:41am

We will have to have a new referendum on a different treaty. What would the NO voters like to see in that treaty that will make them want to vote YES...

Or are they anti-europeans?

PH01 · 07-10-2002 10:49am

Originally posted by Paulg

Or are they anti-europeans?

They're anti-everything.

They would even campaign against the Laws of Gravity!

Meh · 07-10-2002 10:57am

Originally posted by dathi1
Don't worry our new German masters in Brussels will definitely see to this under Nice at the behest of the Brits new court action on our special low company tax rate in Dec.

Uhhhh...the UK is against tax harmonization, and successfully helped Ireland resist it during the Nice negotiations.

Irish company tax rate Before Nice 12%
with Nice ratified vee dont caare vat yu think.: 500%

On the contrary, since tax harmonization needs a unanimous vote, they do care what we think. Also, a tax rate of more than 100% is mathematically impossible.

dahamsta · 07-10-2002 11:19am

Here's what the 'No' side propose to do.

Stereotyping now PH01? That's a real mature way of getting your opinion across.

adam

dathi1 · 07-10-2002 11:21am

On the contrary, since tax harmonization needs a unanimous vote,

With the big states calling the shots and our loss of power they can easly sway other states to back them up.

Also, a tax rate of more than 100% is mathematically impossible.

Thats why I have

after it...23% Germany and France will say.

FF's NICE Whip Dick Roche:

Typedef · 07-10-2002 11:23am

Originally posted by Meh
Uhhhh...the UK is against tax harmonization, and successfully helped Ireland resist it during the Nice negotiations. On the contrary, since tax harmonization needs a unanimous vote, they do care what we think. Also, a tax rate of more than 100% is mathematically impossible.

For sure the UK is against tax harmonisation, however it was the UK that originally brought up Ireland's low rate of corporate tax in the European context, not the French, the Spanish, the Germans or some random Eurocrat.

Just to be clear the French suggested tax harmonisation and the British complained about Ireland's low rate of corporate tax, the two concepts much like the two countries are seperate and distinct.

buddy · 07-10-2002 11:27am

Yes means we lose power in the EU - we lose our commisioner - we lose power as our vote is no longer tallied as the same as every other country - YES is good for the bigger countires - not for us!

Ireland has said NO to NICE already - you people speak as if YES is the only option - the majority of voters did not agree last time!

Paulg · 07-10-2002 11:37am

Many people voted NO last time cos they didn't understand the issues. Most people didn't vote at all.

The referendum commission needs to get the facts across to the public this time so that people vote yes or no for the right reasons.

Meh · 07-10-2002 11:42am

Originally posted by dathi1
With the big states calling the shots and our loss of power they can easly sway other states to back them up.

How exactly would France and Germany be able to coerce Ireland into agreeing to tax harmonization? Under what conditions would any Irish government agree to this? In other words, what could the EU "threaten" us with that would have worse consequences for this country than tax harmonization?

The No side have been saying that we will be "bullied" into agreeing to harmonization, but they've been very short on specifics as to how this would be done.

Keep in mind that the EU budget contributions still require unanimity under Nice (page 28, article 2.44.2):

2. The Council, acting unanimously on a proposal from the Commission and after consulting the European Parliament and obtaining the opinion of the Court of Auditors, shall determine the methods and procedure whereby the budget revenue provided under the arrangements relating to the Community's own resources shall be made available to the Commission, and determine the measures to be applied, if need be, to meet cash requirements.í

Also note that this decision is made by the Council of Ministers, not the Commission.

Typedef · 07-10-2002 11:45am

Many people voted NO last time cos they didn't understand the issues. Most people didn't vote at all.

The referendum commission needs to get the facts across to the public this time so that people vote yes or no for the right reasons.

That is such utter snobbery. You are attempting to tell me that I didn't know what I was voting for in the last Referendum so it's ok to simply set aside that Referendum result as a result returned by a bunch of idots? Well excuse me if I don't meet the criteria of your sliding scale of electoral competence, I presume if I were to get hit by a bolt of lighting and suddenly decide to vote Yes to Nice you would deem me properly informed?

Give it a rest. I understood exactly why I voted No, ostensibly because I thought that the loss of voting powers to this country were unacceptable and that the creation of an avant garde of Federal integration would place the soveringty of Eire in an unteanable position of playing catch up with rabid Federalist states like France and Germany. Who are you to tell me I don't have the capacity to understand the issues pertaing to voting in Nice, because I didn't vote the way you think is best? Who died and made you god?

This entire attitude is the obnoxious stink that has come from the likes of Gerhard Schroder and Romano Prodi, who have the audacity to suggest that because the Irish voted against their vaunted avant garde ideal of European integration that the Irish voter is somehow intellectually inferior! What cheek, I'd venture dollars to pesos neither Ramano Prodi nor Gerhard Schroder put together are anywhere near as good at programming as I am, so under what skewed set of circumstances do such proven intellecutals think they might call my powers of deduction or logic into question because I cast aspersion on the European Federalist edict excuse me, dictat?

I'd just need to know the answer to that.

buddy · 07-10-2002 11:45am

Their ad's are very vagues in what they're putting across - the European Army thing is certainly misleading and should be a part of our constitution with/without the treaty - we are and want to be a neutral country!

And I don't think they have a good Yes/No comparison on refcom.ie - correct me if I'm wrong!

PH01 · 07-10-2002 11:55am

Originally posted by dahamsta
Here's what the 'No' side propose to do.

Stereotyping now PH01? That's a real mature way of getting your opinion across.

adam

Yeah, I know. I should have put a smiley

after my original post above. I'm just stirring it a little. But you get the message all the same.

Also, I don't know how people can say that if we vote 'No' that things will remain the same and that things will go on as before? In one sence this is true, but it won't be fore long as nobody knows what will happen if Nice doesn't go through.
Will Nice be renegociated, or will the other EU states go ahead without us? Well that desicion will be out of our hands if there is a No vote.
I reckon that the other EU states will go ahead without us. So yes we would continue as we are, but the other EU states would then be at a different level post Nice.

buddy · 07-10-2002 12:11pm

But technically they can't go ahead without us - they would have to remove us from the E.U. which I think would be a little zealous on their part - if they want to know our vote and they get a NO than theybahve to respect that someone actually does'nt believe it is right, that the E.U. not need a shuffle up, that the bigger countries should NOT have more power than us - if that was the case we shoudl let the US claim that they are lord and ruler of the planet because they are the biggest!

Typedef · 07-10-2002 12:23pm

Originally posted by PH01
I reckon that the other EU states will go ahead without us. So yes we would continue as we are, but the other EU states would then be at a different level post Nice.

Again that can't happen, as Irish ratification is required for the Nice Treaty to come into force throughout the EU.

What I think a rejection would mean for the EU is that it would be faced with a situation where it would either try to palm off the Irish again with no substantive changes to the Nice Treaty and no real negotation on the Nice Treaty's conent exponenciated throughout Europe and thus risk having the Treaty defeated yet again and filibustering even further the various contents of the Treaty of Nice still further or the EU would have to totally renegotiate the Treaty with all parties involved.

Personally I feel that with the utterly arrogant attitude men like Ramano Prodi and Gerhard Schroder showed by effectively ordering this State to have another Referendum on the Nice Treaty, I can't honestly see the Eurocrats having enough respect nor forsight to substancially renegotiate the Treaty, and in such circumstances the Treaty of Nice will probably continue to be defeated by the Irish electorate until such time as it is rewritten to be less Federalist, aportion more power to small states like Ireland and is generally a better deal for small countries, instead of a mechanism for the Avant Garde of European Federalism to annex effective dictatorial control over the European Union and fast track the venerated Supra National Superstate into existance.

€0.02

Paulg · 07-10-2002 12:52pm

The EU is a union of countries. This power of veto that there is at the moment should be removed. "Majority rules" and thats the way it should be, Ireland shouldn't even have a veto on this treaty.

Paulg · 07-10-2002 12:56pm

And another point, this boll*x about irelands neutrallity...

Ireland have been supporting terroism for the past 30 years, the IRA's war against the british has been supported by the man in the street to the highest quarters of government...

buddy · 07-10-2002 1:06pm

Its not a majority - its all or none - everyone in the group must agree for the change to be made - smaller states should not be made agree to anything which they do not desire of could adversely affect them, hence everyone's on board of the ship ain't leaving the dock!

Supporting terrorism - everyone in this country except the members of this *organisations* wishes there was peace - put that to a vote and see how many people say - Yes, we love terrorism!

Paulg · 07-10-2002 1:10pm

I never said that anyone loved terrism, i said that the country surpported it, certainly in the past.

Meh · 07-10-2002 1:27pm

Originally posted by Paulg
"Majority rules" and thats the way it should be, Ireland shouldn't even have a veto on this treaty.

I think a lot of Yes voters (myself included) would disagree with you there...

Ireland have been supporting terroism for the past 30 years, the IRA's war against the british has been supported by the man in the street to the highest quarters of government...

If you're referring to Mr. Haughey's (alleged) connections with arms smuggling, he was fired as a minister and put on trial for this... In any case, I fail to see what Northern Ireland has to do with the Nice Treaty.

buddy · 07-10-2002 1:37pm

I think they're one and the same - if you hate terorism, you would not support it - some people, very minimal may have tried to profit from terrorism but that is not what you were suggesting!

Paulg · 07-10-2002 1:37pm

"fired as a minister" and then goes on to lead the country!
Neutrallity is a big part of the NO vote campaign.

OK, on the Veto thing, when the EU had a small number of countries, then the veto is a valid thing. But as it enlarged, it would be nearly impossible for all countries to agree on anything.

And if one country has a grudge against another, it could vote against something and punish the rest of Europe in doing so.

MindPhuck · 07-10-2002 1:46pm

Im not one for a political debate at all. I am voting no, very simply because I already voted no and so did the majority of ireland vote no.

What rights do the current government have to force us to vote again ? What I get is 'ahh now, sorry, us irish are a wee bit thick and didn't understand what it was about..'.

Were a democtractic state and were being treated like little children who don't know any better. How dare they actually force us into voting again in fairness. Its almost like tossing a coin in the air, on best of three and when its not in the loosers favour, they say, best of three again...

buddy · 07-10-2002 1:57pm

Originally posted by MindPhuck
What rights do the current government have to force us to vote again ? What I get is 'ahh now, sorry, us irish are a wee bit thick and didn't understand what it was about..'.

Were a democtractic state and were being treated like little children who don't know any better. How dare they actually force us into voting again in fairness. Its almost like tossing a coin in the air, on best of three and when its not in the loosers favour, they say, best of three again...

Ne'er a truer word was said!

We're among the best educated in Europe and Europe is telling us that they're not accepting our first decision - change your mind - it will be ridiculous if a YES vote is given this time!

Paulg · 07-10-2002 2:01pm

it will be ridiculous if a YES vote is given this time!

Why will it be ridiculous?

MindPhuck · 07-10-2002 2:07pm

Originally posted by Paulg
Why will it be ridiculous?

Wouldnt it be 'funny' if the YES vote was given and all the NO voters screamed and yet another Referendum had to take place?

Not that it 'they' would give another Referendum as they would have gotten what they wanted. Yes, lets toss the coin again..

buddy · 07-10-2002 2:53pm

Originally posted by Paulg
Why will it be ridiculous?

Because the voting electorate of this nation has already voted on this one!

PH01 · 07-10-2002 3:52pm

Originally posted by buddy
Because the voting electorate of this nation has already voted on this one!

And if you vote No again there'll be another referendum. And again, and again, and Again until you get it right.
So vote 'Yes' and get it over and done with.

If No to Nice then what?

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